Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

All Blacks XV

Posts: 23
Joined: Fri, 31 Aug 2018, 16:26
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

All Blacks XV

Postby rugby-veterinarian » Mon, 09 Mar 2020, 04:46

NZRU announcement of the formation of the All Blacks XV has got me a little worried. In one of the news releases I was reading the it quoted whom ever the NZRU representative was that the hope of the team was to play regular internationals against second tier teams. I hope this doesn’t become an excuse for the for the All Blacks to not play tier 2 nations in the future.

I mostly worry that this might lead to a new trend for tier 1 nations just making a second XV team to play the tier 2 nations so they can continue to play each other. Looking at the early 00s when there was a number of second XV teams playing in tournaments such as the Nations Cup or the Churchill Cup they never really improved the tier 2 nations, if anything it just made the big nations playing pool larger. I don’t know maybe I am over thinking this but is just seems like a step backwards and could end up being a way that tier 1 nations could get around playing smaller nations.

Posts: 497
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 09 Mar 2020, 06:53

Personally I'm not worried. New Zealand can get away with this because of the strength of their brand and the depth of their player pool. Most tier 1 nations don't have that depth. Springboks could do this. It looks like France will be doing this with their French Barbarians team. I don't think anyone else is going to be doing it.

Posts: 366
Joined: Sat, 31 May 2014, 21:12
National Flag:
FranceFrance

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby vino_93 » Mon, 09 Mar 2020, 06:57

French Barbarians aren't anymore France A team

Posts: 383
Joined: Sun, 21 May 2017, 09:02
National Flag:
PolandPoland

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby rey200 » Mon, 09 Mar 2020, 07:53

If they'll play T2 teams on a regular base, why not? Playing against strong opposition is good, and I believe the All Blacks XV will be a tough team to beat.
Ceterum censeo Sex Nationes esse augendas.

Posts: 497
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 09 Mar 2020, 08:01

vino_93 wrote:French Barbarians aren't anymore France A team


That is a technicality. But they are a representative team of France from the Top 14, and they are active. They are touring North America this summer.

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2019/1 ... -new-york/

Posts: 781
Joined: Mon, 03 Jun 2019, 19:53
National Flag:
New ZealandNew Zealand

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby Edgar » Mon, 09 Mar 2020, 08:02

Seems like they really want to limit the number of games the All Blacks are playing these days, what, with talk of a reduced Rugby Championship doing the rounds as well. I don't see anything wrong with this proposal. If New Zealand is engaging second tier nations at any level that has got to be a positive step forward. Argentina fields a Pumas XV in both ARC and South American competition, just as France used to in FIRA competition last century. & New Zealand itself has fielded second string teams against emerging nations in the past. I think it would be a good thing if rugbydom in general just relaxed its interpretation of what constitutes an official test match and what doesn't. We see in other sports, including football, that second string "national" teams are often fielded against weaker teams but the fixtures nonetheless billed as internationals. While nobody wants to see a blow out, interaction between the tiers is essential for the development of global rugby. & what really matters is filling the stadium.

Posts: 5720
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 09 Mar 2020, 10:46

Isn't the Maori already the second XV?

Posts: 4136
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 09 Mar 2020, 10:57

No, it never was. They registered as such the Junior All Blacks, an inactive side that isn't the U20s.

Posts: 5720
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 09 Mar 2020, 13:58

Slightly confusing, but regardless, I don’t think this is a terrible idea. Many in a second XV would be good enough to make the first team, so they will provide a good hit out for T2 nations.

Posts: 643
Joined: Fri, 15 Aug 2014, 13:57

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby Raven » Mon, 09 Mar 2020, 14:06

We are talking of an All Blacks XV, a team that (without even seeing the roster of players) can probably field a strong side, play, qualify and be competitive in a RWC! The aura around the "ABs Branding" (ie: the name, the Haka, the black uniform, etc) will be enough to attract people in world stadiums.

If there is a team in the Rugby World that can actually pull this off, even against Tier 1 opponents, is the All Blacks.

Posts: 6608
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby victorsra » Mon, 09 Mar 2020, 16:41

Armchair Fan wrote:No, it never was. They registered as such the Junior All Blacks, an inactive side that isn't the U20s.

I believe in 2018 it was.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 497
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 10 Mar 2020, 02:14

Venue for 31 October Fiji vs All Blacks XV has been announced. British Columbia Place, Vancouver.
Friday 30 October sees Canada vs USA.

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2020/0 ... -bc-place/

Posts: 781
Joined: Mon, 03 Jun 2019, 19:53
National Flag:
New ZealandNew Zealand

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby Edgar » Wed, 11 Mar 2020, 09:18

Predictably the doomsayers are coming out and bewailing the "cheapening" of the All Blacks jersey, but you have to wonder about their priorities when the preciousness of jersey ranks above spreading the gospel and establishing depth. The All Blacks XV is not restricted by age or any other factor and certainly makes a lot more sense than wheeling out the Classics against international teams. The Maori All Blacks have their place for cultural reasons but should not be regarded as the de facto 'B' team of New Zealand rugby. The All Blacks XV will inevitably be perceived as the New Zealand national team, which will heighten interest in their fixtures and hopefully draw in the crowds. After all, most of the Americans who attended the league test in Denver a couple of years back were under the impression they had been watching the All Blacks.

NB: The last comment was tongue-in-cheek, btw, just in case anyone was too prude to grasp it :roll: :roll:
Last edited by Edgar on Wed, 11 Mar 2020, 10:13, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 497
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 11 Mar 2020, 09:33

Edgar wrote:Predictably the doomsayers are coming out and bewailing the "cheapening" of the All Blacks jersey, but you have to wonder about their priorities when the preciousness of jersey ranks above spreading the gospel and establishing depth. The All Blacks XV is not restricted by age or any other factor and certainly makes a lot more sense than wheeling out the Classics against international teams. The Maori All Blacks have their place for cultural reasons but should not be regarded as the de facto 'B' team of New Zealand rugby. The All Blacks XV will inevitably be perceived as the New Zealand national team, which will heighten interest in their fixtures and hopefully draw in the crowds. After all, most of the Americans who attended the league test in Denver a couple of years back were under the impression they had been watching the All Blacks.


Ah so deceit is the strategy. Like calling the Women's World Cup in New Zealand simply the Rugby World Cup in the hope that unwitting people buy tickets thinking it's the mens tournament. This approach is diabolical.

Posts: 5720
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 11 Mar 2020, 14:14

Yep. It’s not different to Rugby League trying to fool people into thinking they are selling rugby. It’s deception plain and simple. The reality is the more you share the All Blacks name around the less valuable it becomes. If everything is the All Blacks then nothing is. As I said, it speaks more about the financial issues in NZ than anything else. It’s far more dire than we realise.

Posts: 781
Joined: Mon, 03 Jun 2019, 19:53
National Flag:
New ZealandNew Zealand

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby Edgar » Wed, 11 Mar 2020, 15:34

Only if you also consider the Argentina XV's inclusion in ARC and South American competition to be a "deception." Most would consider it to be a positive thing, an honor for their opponents and invaluable experience.

Undoubtedly Brazilians would regard their victory against the Argie A side as the pinnacle of their achievements in "international" rugby. Perhaps we should go and break it to them that it was only an illusion and they have been cruelly deceived.

We should next explain to Uruguay that their victory over the Argentina XV meant nothing either, and the US that their ARC titles really counted for diddly squat because those encounters with the Argies were all a nefarious lie.

Sorry Fiji and 25K fans who packed Suva Stadium and climbed the trees outside to see victory over the Lions in 77: Your epic win was without meaning for you, too, were the victims of fraud.

Ditto Romania, Italy and the Soviet Union; those epic triumphs over France in FIRA competition - mere figments of your imagination. & there are many other examples of national XVs deceiving their opponents by fielding second string sides and helping promote the game.

But we seem to have an aversion to any kind of meaningful interaction between first tier and the rest, such as the curious notion World Cup regulars Namibia are not good enough to play in between World Cups.

Let them play oldtimers already retired from the game. That should prepare them nicely for their next encounter with the Springboks or All Blacks at the World Cup. Not much of an investment in our future, mind, but not to worry - we'll invent a duplicate of the 6 Nations for the rest of the World and play each other ad infinitum.

What really matters in rugby is the preciousness of jersey, and this should in no way be sullied by playing the lesser nations of the world and letting them imagine for one minute that these are our "actual" national team. Ultra-conservative thinking at its finest!

Posts: 6608
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby victorsra » Wed, 11 Mar 2020, 16:12

Edgar wrote:Only if you also consider the Argentina XV's inclusion in ARC and South American competition to be a "deception." Most would consider it to be a positive thing, an honor for their opponents and invaluable experience.

Undoubtedly Brazilians would regard their victory against the Argie A side as the pinnacle of their achievements in "international" rugby. Perhaps we should go and break it to them that it was only an illusion and they have been cruelly deceived.

We should next explain to Uruguay that their victory over the Argentina XV meant nothing either, and the US that their ARC titles really counted for diddly squat because those encounters with the Argies were all a nefarious lie.

Sorry Fiji and 25K fans who packed Suva Stadium and climbed the trees outside to see victory over the Lions in 77: Your epic win was without meaning for you, too, were the victims of fraud.

Ditto Romania, Italy and the Soviet Union; those epic triumphs over France in FIRA competition - mere figments of your imagination. & there are many other examples of national XVs deceiving their opponents by fielding second string sides and helping promote the game.

But we seem to have an aversion to any kind of meaningful interaction between first tier and the rest, such as the curious notion World Cup regulars Namibia are not good enough to play in between World Cups.

Let them play oldtimers already retired from the game. That should prepare them nicely for their next encounter with the Springboks or All Blacks at the World Cup. Not much of an investment in our future, mind, but not to worry - we'll invent a duplicate of the 6 Nations for the rest of the World and play each other ad infinitum.

What really matters in rugby is the preciousness of jersey, and this should in no way be sullied by playing the lesser nations of the world and letting them imagine for one minute that these are our "actual" national team. Ultra-conservative thinking at its finest!


Brazilian rugby people definitly consider the victory against Argentina XV the pinnacle. However, it could have had a better impact. It wasn't shown on TV and did not made it to the general sports media. Unfortunatly it was treated as an obscure match in Argentina, played in the second field of a local club. So, extremely important achievement but only recognised by our own rugby community...
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 3287
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 11 Mar 2020, 16:31

victorsra wrote:
Brazilian rugby people definitly consider the victory against Argentina XV the pinnacle. However, it could have had a better impact. It wasn't shown on TV and did not made it to the general sports media. Unfortunatly it was treated as an obscure match in Argentina, played in the second field of a local club. So, extremely important achievement but only recognised by our own rugby community...


And that's what a game against a XV will always be. Every serious sports journalist will have a closer look, realize that it is a second team and dismiss it as important news.

And sorry, Edgar. I see no honour in not fielding a capped team against any nation at all. Only aristocratic thinking from two centuries ago. I agree with the experience. But wouldn't this also be the case if they fielded their real national team with just not all of their regular starters? Think outside the box. Would you be interested in a Kiwi team playing soccer against Germany A?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 6608
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby victorsra » Wed, 11 Mar 2020, 17:39

yes, this kind of opponent will only be recognized by the rugby community. It doesn't promote the sport for new audiences (only if you lie about it). The issue lies here. When the Brazilian Rugby Union hosted de Maoris, they promoted it as "All Blacks Maori", with "Maori" hidden in the end. The match, however, was a success... so... it is not totaly s*t, but definitly not the salvation of the game.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 353
Joined: Fri, 14 Aug 2015, 13:58
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby marvinparsons » Wed, 11 Mar 2020, 19:14

There is only so much All Blacks 1st 15 to go around.

If it leads to more internationals for tier 2 than why not? It is still better competition and probably better for development than losing 70-0 to the real ABs.

Posts: 497
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 11 Mar 2020, 19:20

I don't think Argentina XV playing in Americas tournaments is deception. Or even the Maori All Blacks. Everyone knows what those teams are. But All Blacks XV is a bit sneaky. I still think can get away with it though. They will still probably be one of the best teams in the world.

Posts: 6608
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby victorsra » Wed, 11 Mar 2020, 23:52

Chester-Donnelly wrote:I don't think Argentina XV playing in Americas tournaments is deception. Or even the Maori All Blacks. Everyone knows what those teams are. But All Blacks XV is a bit sneaky. I still think can get away with it though. They will still probably be one of the best teams in the world.


Maoris in Brazil were a success (35k people attended) because rugby people knew who they are and loved it anyway, while non rugby people attended (ar least 1/3 of the total attendance) because they thought the Maoris were the famous All Blacks (a mislead that went well). So, both things happened. A mix.

The Barbarians came as Barbarians and only rugby people attended (around 10k). Which means the small lie of All Blacks did more for rugby here...
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 27
Joined: Thu, 29 Aug 2019, 08:00
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby novac » Thu, 12 Mar 2020, 09:15

Romania played against All Blacks XV in 2000 and there were more than 10000 spectators on the Stadium in Bucharest from all over the country. We all knew that it will not be a match against first All Black team (there was no Lomu :)) but we wanted to see them live playing. It was a great spectacle even if Romania lost with a very big difference (9-82 or so).

Posts: 781
Joined: Mon, 03 Jun 2019, 19:53
National Flag:
New ZealandNew Zealand

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby Edgar » Thu, 12 Mar 2020, 09:19

No need to apologize to me, Rugby Liebe. It's the NZRFU's idea, not mine. So you can write to them and suggest they think outside the box, if you like. I'm sure they'll be most intrigued.

It seems that some of you are missing the point, however. It is not a choice between the official All Blacks and All Blacks XVs. It's a choice between All Blacks XVs and the Juniors or Maori.

Anyone who doesn't know where I stand on the issue of official tests between first tier and the rest hasn't been paying attention. That's precisely what I've been advocating for all along.

Indeed, I've recently suggested an annual Boks v Welwitschias encounter, only this has been dismissed on the basis it "might result in a blow out," so "best wheel out the Oldbokke instead."

But now we're talking about Canada, practically level with Namibia on the rankings, and the idea of fielding an All Blacks XV is being poo-pooed because it "won't be an official test." :roll:

I'd hazard a guess and say Namibia would prefer a Springboks XV than the Oldbokke. & don't worry, nobody's going to pull the wool over their eyes and claim it's a full international.

Similarly, the Canadians and Fijians shall not be deceived when they face the All Blacks XV. Though it won't be the Old Blacks either, as it was vs the latter in their centenary year - disgracefully.

The only concern I had with an All Blacks XV is that it may be used to "capture" borderline players of Pacific Island ancestry. But according to this report from Radio NZ, that won't be the case: https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pac ... 4ffSTcmR_Q

Meanwhile, on the issue of league, it would certainly be a good thing to draw a clear distinction between the two codes given some of the scandals to have rocked the mungo variety in recent times. :evil:

https://7news.com.au/sport/rugby-league ... l-c-739048
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... wE4uHY_NpU

& finally, 70 years ago today, this is an interesting read. 'The day 80 Welsh rugby fans died in the world's worst air crash - the Llandow air disaster:' https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/ ... oRhsiwVLz0
Last edited by Edgar on Thu, 12 Mar 2020, 10:38, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 5720
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: All Blacks XV

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 12 Mar 2020, 10:16

Having a second XV team is great and all, it's the branding I don't like.

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Duke of Earl, rusty_lock and 9 guests