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financial state of unions.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 18 Apr 2020, 13:56

Armchair Fan wrote:How can you force Japan professional teams to sign Tonga and Samoa international players when they already have Tongans in Japan, who know the culture and the language having been lured as teens, and that will be eligible for Japan?

Pacific Nations Cup has been an annual tournament for 15 years, with different formats, but it's been one. We can debate about where it should be hosted to boost ticketing revenues, but that and TV have limits with only one market out of four core entrants.

World Rugby Pacific Challenge has yet to prove to be nothing else than a PR exercice by World Rugby, considering Samoa and Tonga A sides have little to none link to their senior sides. Man, we saw an amateur from NZ called to RWC rather than any player from these A sides.


I didn't say force. I'm talking about a symbiotic relationship which ensures Japan has an international tournament every year with high quality opposition. It will appeal to the Japanese rugby supporters because Samoa and Tonga will include club players from every top level Japanese club. I am certain that Japan will continue to have a lot of Tongan players also.

Yes the Pacific Nations Cup has just one main market, which happens to have a population and economy that is far bigger than Britain and Ireland. Imagine, if you can, a four team international tournament consisting of the four nations of Britain and Ireland. Of course the economy and population is concentrated in one country, England, but I still think that could be popular and grow into something significant. Hong Kong are making good progress, so an Asia Pacific 5 Nations is a future possibility.

I do think the Pacific Rugby Challenge does need to be re-evaluated each year. There is a big difference between Fiji and Japan who are excellent, and Samoa and Tonga who are not. I would be interested in seeing a Hong Kong team involved. I also think Samoa should look at how American Samoa could contribute to the Samoa team. With such a tiny population, a few extra thousand and USA military resources could be helpful. An international rugby team doesn't need to be a sovereign nation. All of the British and Irish teams are not sovereign Nations. Neither is Hong Kong.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 14:11

Armchair Fan wrote:How can you force Japan professional teams to sign Tonga and Samoa international players when they already have Tongans in Japan, who know the culture and the language having been lured as teens, and that will be eligible for Japan?

Pacific Nations Cup has been an annual tournament for 15 years, with different formats, but it's been one. We can debate about where it should be hosted to boost ticketing revenues, but that and TV have limits with only one market out of four core entrants.

World Rugby Pacific Challenge has yet to prove to be nothing else than a PR exercice by World Rugby, considering Samoa and Tonga A sides have little to none link to their senior sides. Man, we saw an amateur from NZ called to RWC rather than any player from these A sides.

Yes. It would be more logical to help them finance NRC teams.

Hong Kong is an IOC member.
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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby DragonMike » Wed, 22 Apr 2020, 09:40

Armchair Fan wrote:I can't think of a single scenario where the competitiveness of Samoa and Tonga can be sustainable. Rugby can't do miracles when all demographic and economic criteria go against them. Quite the contrary, some of World Rugby efforts to maintain them afloat are or will be counterproductive.


I don't agree - a professional club could probably be run in the islands for as little as $5-6m USD - $1.0m travel costs for 10-12 overseas trips per year + visiting team subsidies, $1-1.5m operating costs/non playing staff, $3m playing budget for mainly local players (assuming $75k per player per full timer on average, which would probably allow recruitment from lower leagues in NZ for the marquee players or some players who want to be at 'home').

I suppose they cant cover this with commercial revenue - but if the country has GDP of $450m+ in Tonga, and $850m in Samoa, Fiji $5500m - and you can generate maybe $1-2m in commercial revenue and sponsorship (or more in FIji), some form of cross subsidy with national team is likely to occur, then the state needs to put in a few million to maintain a team, or there needs to be some sort of subsidy centrally.

I of course know nothing about Tongan/Fijian/Samoan rugby, but the basic financials seem possible if it can be setup correctly and managed responsibly.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 22 Apr 2020, 10:00

DragonMike wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:I can't think of a single scenario where the competitiveness of Samoa and Tonga can be sustainable. Rugby can't do miracles when all demographic and economic criteria go against them. Quite the contrary, some of World Rugby efforts to maintain them afloat are or will be counterproductive.


I don't agree - a professional club could probably be run in the islands for as little as $5-6m USD - $1.0m travel costs for 10-12 overseas trips per year + visiting team subsidies, $1-1.5m operating costs/non playing staff, $3m playing budget for mainly local players (assuming $75k per player per full timer on average, which would probably allow recruitment from lower leagues in NZ for the marquee players or some players who want to be at 'home').

I suppose they cant cover this with commercial revenue - but if the country has GDP of $450m+ in Tonga, and $850m in Samoa, Fiji $5500m - and you can generate maybe $1-2m in commercial revenue and sponsorship (or more in FIji), some form of cross subsidy with national team is likely to occur, then the state needs to put in a few million to maintain a team, or there needs to be some sort of subsidy centrally.

I of course know nothing about Tongan/Fijian/Samoan rugby, but the basic financials seem possible if it can be setup correctly and managed responsibly.


The Pacific Islands nations are small, poor, remote and corrupt.
The Asia Pacific region has everything it needs for professional rugby to thrive. Stadiums, fans with money, world class national teams, world class players, world class coaches, administrators, broadcasters.
Pacific Islands provides players. Everything else can be found in Japan, Australia and New Zealand.
If Japan, Australia and New Zealand work together they could have sustainable professional club rugby with all of their best players and the best Pacific Islands players, and have a Pacific Six Nations that is every bit as good as Europe's Six Nations.
What does Europe have that Asia Pacific does not?

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby TheStroBro » Wed, 22 Apr 2020, 15:05

DragonMike wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:I can't think of a single scenario where the competitiveness of Samoa and Tonga can be sustainable. Rugby can't do miracles when all demographic and economic criteria go against them. Quite the contrary, some of World Rugby efforts to maintain them afloat are or will be counterproductive.


I don't agree - a professional club could probably be run in the islands for as little as $5-6m USD - $1.0m travel costs for 10-12 overseas trips per year + visiting team subsidies, $1-1.5m operating costs/non playing staff, $3m playing budget for mainly local players (assuming $75k per player per full timer on average, which would probably allow recruitment from lower leagues in NZ for the marquee players or some players who want to be at 'home').

I suppose they cant cover this with commercial revenue - but if the country has GDP of $450m+ in Tonga, and $850m in Samoa, Fiji $5500m - and you can generate maybe $1-2m in commercial revenue and sponsorship (or more in FIji), some form of cross subsidy with national team is likely to occur, then the state needs to put in a few million to maintain a team, or there needs to be some sort of subsidy centrally.

I of course know nothing about Tongan/Fijian/Samoan rugby, but the basic financials seem possible if it can be setup correctly and managed responsibly.


Of the "three" Island Unions, only one of them has a population that could possibly support a rugby team. That is Fiji. But that is before you look at the economics of having to island hop every other week.

Given the demographic makeup of Papua New Guinea, I suspect that their rugby teams with proper funding could get very competitive in the international game. In fact their women have also had some decent results. What is more though is the population of PNG is double that of New Zealand.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 22 Apr 2020, 16:21

TheStroBro wrote:
DragonMike wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:I can't think of a single scenario where the competitiveness of Samoa and Tonga can be sustainable. Rugby can't do miracles when all demographic and economic criteria go against them. Quite the contrary, some of World Rugby efforts to maintain them afloat are or will be counterproductive.


I don't agree - a professional club could probably be run in the islands for as little as $5-6m USD - $1.0m travel costs for 10-12 overseas trips per year + visiting team subsidies, $1-1.5m operating costs/non playing staff, $3m playing budget for mainly local players (assuming $75k per player per full timer on average, which would probably allow recruitment from lower leagues in NZ for the marquee players or some players who want to be at 'home').

I suppose they cant cover this with commercial revenue - but if the country has GDP of $450m+ in Tonga, and $850m in Samoa, Fiji $5500m - and you can generate maybe $1-2m in commercial revenue and sponsorship (or more in FIji), some form of cross subsidy with national team is likely to occur, then the state needs to put in a few million to maintain a team, or there needs to be some sort of subsidy centrally.

I of course know nothing about Tongan/Fijian/Samoan rugby, but the basic financials seem possible if it can be setup correctly and managed responsibly.


Of the "three" Island Unions, only one of them has a population that could possibly support a rugby team. That is Fiji. But that is before you look at the economics of having to island hop every other week.

Given the demographic makeup of Papua New Guinea, I suspect that their rugby teams with proper funding could get very competitive in the international game. In fact their women have also had some decent results. What is more though is the population of PNG is double that of New Zealand.


Getting third world countries to play rugby union is all very good, but the focus for the Asia Pacific region has to be to coordinate the players, coaches, teams, investors, unions, stadiums, transport links, universities, leagues etc.
The region can have the best league in the world, but forget about trying to have a professional team where the government is corrupt and the people have no money. The markets are Japan, Australia and New Zealand. There can be expansion in the future but for now those are the unions which should work together.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 23 Apr 2020, 11:33

Castle has resigned effective immediately.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Thomas » Thu, 23 Apr 2020, 12:02

thatrugbyguy wrote:Castle has resigned effective immediately.


Bloody Captains

:x :x :x :x

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 14:28

:!: CONGRATS :thumbup:

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NOW BRING FOLAU BACK :lol: FROM LEAGUE

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 17:10

The previous CEO kicked out Western Force, SANZAAR is incompetent to keep Japan ... People living under a rock might think Australia's problems appeared now... It is good to have a scapegoats to fool fools.

If someone believes a player is the solution (or his absense the reason of a decline), it is because you already have a huge systemic problem - and, therefore, he is much a MUCH smaller issue, a mere detail.
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