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financial state of unions.

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financial state of unions.

Unread postby Scoob » Fri, 27 Mar 2020, 03:49

With the current crisis around the world taking place,and the need for humanity to come together for the sake of everyone,i wonder how the unions are willing to help each other out in all the tiers of world rugby or are we going to see the selfish side of things where the top brigade fight amongst themselves for financial backing from world rugby.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Fri, 27 Mar 2020, 13:24


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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Thomas » Fri, 27 Mar 2020, 22:02


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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Scoob » Fri, 27 Mar 2020, 22:47

The NZRFU has already had talks with government about financial funding.
What the NZRFU need to remember is that all sports in NZL are in the same dire situation.
I can imagine there opening statement to government and world rugby would go something like this.
The All Blacks brand is the face of rugby all over the world and with your help we can bring rugby back to the entire world :roll: :roll:

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 28 Mar 2020, 06:29

Not to put too fine a point on it but this whole virus situation could end up long term levelling a lot of things across the game, including who the major nations are in the sport.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 28 Mar 2020, 08:52

The NZRU is coming across as self-entitled and whiny. They will just need to go onto debt then work their way back out of debt. All unions go in and out of debt. With interest rates so low they could borrow directly from their fans with bonds.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Duke of Earl » Tue, 07 Apr 2020, 06:39

Will this global crisis be the opening that private equity has been waiting for ? We are becoming aware that there are some established rugby unions who have been living significantly outwith their means and do not have the assets to get through this crisis , and we are also seeing that rugby is not as wealthy nor financially well run across certain parts of the globe as previously understood.
Would we now see some unions becoming exposed to these private equity companies and allowing the game to become dictated by these financial organisations.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby iul » Tue, 07 Apr 2020, 07:43

Duke of Earl wrote:Will this global crisis be the opening that private equity has been waiting for ? We are becoming aware that there are some established rugby unions who have been living significantly outwith their means and do not have the assets to get through this crisis , and we are also seeing that rugby is not as wealthy nor financially well run across certain parts of the globe as previously understood.
Would we now see some unions becoming exposed to these private equity companies and allowing the game to become dictated by these financial organisations.

Wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. The main reasons of the lack of openness and expansion are tradition and the wish of cartel nations to artificially keep themselves at the top of the game. Investment funds wouldn't care about any of those things. I bet CVC wouldn't mond having Germany and Spain instead of Wales and Scotland at the top of the European game.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Duke of Earl » Tue, 07 Apr 2020, 12:10

Thats is one the examples I was thinking, if you use CVC's history in F1 , it is likely they are wanting to move into markets where there is a larger TV audience and/or exposure to corporate money , irrespective of the current standard of the rugby being played.
In Europe , it wouldnt be too much of a stretch to get the South Africans to gravitate North to expand the Pro14. Then you would include the Russians , they already have professional teams with ambition , so invite them to join. Then place franchises in Spain , Portugal , Germany , Belgium and the Netherlands. Its not unreasonable to think that if you centralise the money in Europe , Southern Hemisphere players will move away from their domestic competions and play in Europe. This will encourage/force these countries to agree on a unified global calendar and allow their players to play in Europe but retain access for internationals.
The money long term , as you say is not in most of the top 12 nations. There is more potential in Germany , Spain , Belgium and Netherlands , than Wales , Scotland, Ireland , Fiji and to an extent NZ. NZ benefit from a terrific global brand and conveyor belt of player but bring nothing commercially.
No point tyring to get develop cross continent club competitions , travel and player welfare wont allow it. Can see CVC focussing on Europe and encouraging SH players to move their so they can get the best return for their money. It will be like UEFA in football , where the money and power is in Europe.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 07 Apr 2020, 12:37

If we use CVC history in F1, they won't make the slightest investment to make new markets grow. Their business model wasn't about creating new markets but extorting local promoters with large fees in the hope local governments would step in and pay the bill, regardless of on-site audience or TV ratings.

We will see a Club World Cup in Qatar before Germany, Russia or Spain have presence in big tournaments.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Thomas » Tue, 07 Apr 2020, 14:21

Well, Australia is about to go broke if the current civil war continues and they ripped each other to pieces.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby victorsra » Tue, 07 Apr 2020, 16:07

Armchair Fan wrote:If we use CVC history in F1, they won't make the slightest investment to make new markets grow. Their business model wasn't about creating new markets but extorting local promoters with large fees in the hope local governments would step in and pay the bill, regardless of on-site audience or TV ratings.

We will see a Club World Cup in Qatar before Germany, Russia or Spain have presence in big tournaments.

Yes, can't deny this. However, F1 was already a global sport with a global market.

If they want to make serious money with rugby they'll need to expand. I dont see CVC having the same approach, at least in the beggining. But I may be naive.

CVC would be bad news for Pacific Islands, Georgia, Namibia, Uruguay... For sure. But markets like Spain, Germany, Russia, Brazil, Hong Kong and definitly USA or Japan would receive privileges im the name of profit.
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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Scoob » Sun, 12 Apr 2020, 21:44

When the world gets back to some sort of normality,I have a feeling we are going to see the top nations at the executive table which dont include tier 2 nations nut out a deal that benefits a select few,and we know who they are.
The world rugby elections will probably go to Beaumont in a landslide as conservative nations would not want someone to shake things up like Pichot after the crisis the world is seeing right now.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Duke of Earl » Wed, 15 Apr 2020, 20:14

Interesting comments in this article

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/world-ru ... ERQAH8JZ2U

My predictions will be ,

(a) Think we will see an end to Super Rugby as we know it , more SH players will move to Europe or Japan which will mean SANZAAR teams having to relax/remove their rules limiting the selection of overseas players.

(b) Jaguares will fold and the players will move to Europe or MLR

(c) Can see an agreement where more SH players come to Europe and Europe moving to a season which corresponds with the current SH

(d) There will be a push for all nations to play more internationals during the next 4 year cycle to cover losses.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Blurandski » Thu, 16 Apr 2020, 01:31

victorsra wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:If we use CVC history in F1, they won't make the slightest investment to make new markets grow. Their business model wasn't about creating new markets but extorting local promoters with large fees in the hope local governments would step in and pay the bill, regardless of on-site audience or TV ratings.

We will see a Club World Cup in Qatar before Germany, Russia or Spain have presence in big tournaments.

Yes, can't deny this. However, F1 was already a global sport with a global market.

If they want to make serious money with rugby they'll need to expand. I dont see CVC having the same approach, at least in the beggining. But I may be naive.

CVC would be bad news for Pacific Islands, Georgia, Namibia, Uruguay... For sure. But markets like Spain, Germany, Russia, Brazil, Hong Kong and definitly USA or Japan would receive privileges im the name of profit.


I'd largely agree with this. 6N is the big prize to move behind a paywall, but the DCMS committee have already explicitly threatened making it a compulsory FTA event in the UK, which would destroy it's current £100m/yr value. Beyond that most of the tricks CVC tried with F1 have already been done. Best way to growth value of its' investments is to grow it in Germany, Spain, Russia, and Brazil. Part of that would involve opening up the 6N. Profit-motivated capital may not be the enemy.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby sk 88 » Thu, 16 Apr 2020, 14:24

I think people are getting a bit confused between CVC and the 6N plans in general.

The 6N have not sold out to CVC yet.

The plan to sell the 6N to a non-FTA broadcaster is the the 6N idea. The plan to sell their autumn rights as a bundle and include the 6N is also the 6N idea, that is happening anyway regardless of CVC's involvement.

Currently the 6N have 18 Autumn Internationals (min) and 15 6N games to sell, so 33 in total. The idea is that they have sliced those up into 3 or more packages (so for instance 1st pick Autumn game, ENG V FRA & WAL vIRE in 6N plus autumn picks 3,6,7 whatever) to maximise value and to mix up the broadcasters.

The idea is effectively to get a better mix of AIs on free to air (maybe an England v Aus, NZ v Ire and Wal v SA), get all of the AIs broadcast properly (France, Italy and Scotland's games still don't always get on a proper UK channel), and sell off some of the 6N games to Sky/BT. It is also easier to sell this kind of package to broadcasters in Aus, SA, America, Japan.

That's all the 6N already ("Project Light") and not CVC, who haven't bought anything yet.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby amz » Thu, 16 Apr 2020, 15:15

FRR for sure won't go bankrupt.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby victorsra » Thu, 16 Apr 2020, 16:53

CBRu is very risked... but probably COVID-19 won't impact the Braziian Rugby Union right now. The question is 2021.
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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby jservuk » Fri, 17 Apr 2020, 16:45

What evidence is there that there is big TV demand or market for 6N Rugby in Brazil, Germany, Spain, Russia?

Surely you can't just throw a sport on TV and it suddenly gets millions of viewers. If that were the case, why dont 6N or WR just buy prime airtime in these countries and televise the games?

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 17 Apr 2020, 17:01

Because all unions and leagues are so on the edge financially-speaking they can't afford long-term investments.

Germany had good ratings in last RWC, Victor has said how RWC being broadcasted on ESPN since 2003 had an impact in Brazil, Russia had games on Match, which is pretty big channel, a big bunch of Spanish fans got hooked to rugby because main TV channel broadcasted 5N in the eighties and nineties... But it takes time and money to make them grow and I can see why 6N for example prefers to take a pay TV deal for X money rather than having to give TV rights for free in the hope they will have a return of investment in 10 or 20 years. World Rugby on the other hand should have that vision...

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 17 Apr 2020, 18:25

6N is in ESPN Brazil since 2006, every year all matches. It is maybe the 2nd most viewed rugby event here, after the RWC, because it sometimes catches atention from regular people that did not knew rugby. Rugby Championship is also shown, but All Blacks matches are 4:30 AM... which means only rugby diehards watch it live. But matches in South Africa (mid-day) and Pumas (afternoon) are as important as the 6N.

But all this means not that much. Rugby is not near NFL here, for exemple....
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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby wooden shoe » Fri, 17 Apr 2020, 19:17

From a Dutch point of view I think that an investment of a global company in the TV coverage of a competition with a Dutch franchise that benefits from the TV money is an illusion and, to be blunt, utter nonsense.
4 years ago the World Cup was broadcasted prime time. This attracted between approximatily 100.000 to 200.000 viewers on our population of 17.000.000. It is attractive because it is a show-case, with absolute top rugby. Because for most viewers the sport is unknown they love the aspect that they discover something special. After the wordlcup we are very happy to meet new players, but the interest of the TV viewers fades away. Some will see a 6 Nations game and that is it.
A Dutch pro franchise in some European competition with matches played for 5000 (?) spectators will not create any significant TV viewers numbers.
Also a Dutch pro franchise will not create any interest from sponsors. Dutch companies will go for the round ball football game, cycling and skating. F.e.Heineken and Rabobank sponsor rugby abroad but they have zero commercial interest in sponsoring pro rugby in the Netherlands.

Back to topic.

I think the Dutch Union does not depend on sponsoring. So I think the financial state is solid and not in danger.

Whatever the future brings, this crisis shows that all sport is just a game and not important.
The financial situation will change.
I hope it will bring (-) that money in sport/ rugby will be less important (-) the joy to play and watch rugby will be (more) central and that (-) there will be more equal chances for all countries to compete and achieve especially the pacific nations.
How? I don't know, but I hope rugby will find the way to show its true sportmanship and rugby values, spirit and heart leading to a solid and honest solidarity between the nations which is totally and shamefully lacking now. It would be great to see some sort of Marshall plan so that each Union will have the financial means to have a fair chance to properly prepare for more then 1 open global competition in 4 years. On sportive grounds, so especially Samoa, Tonga and Fiji must benefit and not some new rugby countries on grounds of (imaginary) commercial prospects.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 18 Apr 2020, 10:29

I can't think of a single scenario where the competitiveness of Samoa and Tonga can be sustainable. Rugby can't do miracles when all demographic and economic criteria go against them. Quite the contrary, some of World Rugby efforts to maintain them afloat are or will be counterproductive.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 18 Apr 2020, 12:03

Armchair Fan wrote:I can't think of a single scenario where the competitiveness of Samoa and Tonga can be sustainable. Rugby can't do miracles when all demographic and economic criteria go against them. Quite the contrary, some of World Rugby efforts to maintain them afloat are or will be counterproductive.


I can. When Japan has its professional league, draft Tonga's and Samoa's international players into those teams. Keep the Pacific Nations Cup as an annual tournament, maybe alternating between Japan and Fiji. Tonga's and Samoa's players' wages will be paid by Japanese clubs, and their national teams will receive income from the TV rights and match fees for the Pacific Nations Cup.
I would still keep the World Rugby Pacific Challenge, even though the Tonga and Samoa standard is way below that of Junior Japan and Fiji Warriors. There is an opportunity for players to be spotted and recruited by Japanese clubs.
Of course this will mean a continued player drain from Tonga and Samoa, but that is going to happen anyway. Under this system the players of the Tonga and Samoa national teams can all be based in one country, not spread across the world. And the Japanese pro league should be broadcast free to view in Samoa and Tonga so that the public can watch their heroes in action every week.

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Re: financial state of unions.

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 18 Apr 2020, 12:09

How can you force Japan professional teams to sign Tonga and Samoa international players when they already have Tongans in Japan, who know the culture and the language having been lured as teens, and that will be eligible for Japan?

Pacific Nations Cup has been an annual tournament for 15 years, with different formats, but it's been one. We can debate about where it should be hosted to boost ticketing revenues, but that and TV have limits with only one market out of four core entrants.

World Rugby Pacific Challenge has yet to prove to be nothing else than a PR exercice by World Rugby, considering Samoa and Tonga A sides have little to none link to their senior sides. Man, we saw an amateur from NZ called to RWC rather than any player from these A sides.

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