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Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournaments

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 01 May 2020, 13:38

I think a player should have to be citizen of that country in addition to qualifying through one of World Rugby's criteria. How can someone claim to be English if they don't hold a British passport? The same applies to Samoa. A player should have a Samoa passport to play for Samoa. I like the idea of there being a Samoa heritage representative team, which could include New Zealanders and British players, similar to the Maori All Blacks, but the Samoa national team should be the national team of Samoa, not a New Zealand B team. If that means they struggle to qualify for the World Cup then so be it. They need to develop their own players, and judging from what I saw from the Pacific Challenge they have a lot of work to do.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby 4N » Fri, 01 May 2020, 14:14

Jus sanguinis citizenship laws are limited to one generation (parent born there) in many countries. Italy is a notable exception. Anyone with a parent born in Samoa is eligible for citizenship so almost none of their players would have issues getting a passport. You could scrap the grandparent rule for non-passport holders.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby sk 88 » Fri, 01 May 2020, 15:14

And in many countries (including the UK) being born there is not enough to get a passport anyway.

I think Switzerland is like that too?

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 01 May 2020, 15:23

Chester-Donnelly wrote:I think a player should have to be citizen of that country in addition to qualifying through one of World Rugby's criteria. How can someone claim to be English if they don't hold a British passport? The same applies to Samoa. A player should have a Samoa passport to play for Samoa. I like the idea of there being a Samoa heritage representative team, which could include New Zealanders and British players, similar to the Maori All Blacks, but the Samoa national team should be the national team of Samoa, not a New Zealand B team. If that means they struggle to qualify for the World Cup then so be it. They need to develop their own players, and judging from what I saw from the Pacific Challenge they have a lot of work to do.

Many of the foreign-born players playing for national teams don't have that country's citizenship, they don't have passports of the countries their are playing for. Not all players qualified by residency are qualified for citizenship according to that country's laws...
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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 01 May 2020, 15:31

4N wrote:Jus sanguinis citizenship laws are limited to one generation (parent born there) in many countries. Italy is a notable exception. Anyone with a parent born in Samoa is eligible for citizenship so almost none of their players would have issues getting a passport. You could scrap the grandparent rule for non-passport holders.

So... no sport can forbid a player to defend a country he/she is a CITIZEN of, right?

I know Italy is an exception, many Brazilians and Argentines with Italian GREATparents have Italian citizenship (passports, voting rights...), if they can prove the heritage properly. However, I believe Italy only gives the citizenship for a greatson/daughter if at least one grandparent and one parent also applied and got the citizenship. In Italy's case, a greatson with citizenship is allowed to play for the Italian national team?

If we are not misinterpreting the regulation 8, maybe it only says "(a) he was born" because many countries don't give automatic citizenship for people born in their territory, as pointed by sk, right?

Countries with jus soli (countries that give citizenship for people born in the country, no matter family origins):
Image

Lighter blue is "with restrictions".
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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby 4N » Fri, 01 May 2020, 15:58

victorsra wrote:
4N wrote:Jus sanguinis citizenship laws are limited to one generation (parent born there) in many countries. Italy is a notable exception. Anyone with a parent born in Samoa is eligible for citizenship so almost none of their players would have issues getting a passport. You could scrap the grandparent rule for non-passport holders.

So... no sport can forbid a player to defend a country he/she is a CITIZEN of, right?

I know Italy is an exception, many Brazilians and Argentines with Italian GREATparents have Italian citizenship (passports, voting rights...), if they can prove the heritage properly. However, I believe Italy only gives the citizenship for a greatson/daughter if at least one grandparent and one parent also applied and got the citizenship. In Italy's case, a greatson with citizenship is allowed to play for the Italian national team?

If we are not misinterpreting the regulation 8, maybe it only says "(a) he was born" because some countries don't give automatic citizenship for people born in their territory, as pointed by sk, right?


Given that we know Italy grants passports to great-grandchildren of emigrants in certain cases I’m not sure if that is true. It would need to be looked into further. But you can definitely scrap the grandparent rule for non-passport holders with no issues. There are other international sports bodies that do not recognize it.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby JWSaunders » Fri, 01 May 2020, 16:29

Victorsra, it would be great if you could fill me in more on Brazilian Rugby. I know the Duque and Sancery brothers have been good for Brazilian rugby. Quick questions, A) is Alexandre Albee’s still playing in Australia which I never understood how or why he went there and B) is dell’acqua the second row and Van Niekerk the winger foreign born or actually Brazilian born and bred. Also any more details on star players or rising players that you could tell me about? Thanks

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 01 May 2020, 17:05

JWSaunders wrote:Victorsra, it would be great if you could fill me in more on Brazilian Rugby. I know the Duque and Sancery brothers have been good for Brazilian rugby. Quick questions, A) is Alexandre Albee’s still playing in Australia which I never understood how or why he went there and B) is dell’acqua the second row and Van Niekerk the winger foreign born or actually Brazilian born and bred. Also any more details on star players or rising players that you could tell me about? Thanks


A) Alexandre Alves, you mean? He returned to Brazil, he's playing club rugby here now and was in a training list for the Corinthians team. He went to Australia for personal reasons, he wanted to have that life experience.

B) Dell'Acqua was born in Italy, Italian father and Brazilian mother. De Wet Van Niekerk was born in South Africa with no Brazilian heritage. He came to Brazil to play rugby invited by a club that had a short-lived professional approach, the controversial "Armstrong Dragons". He decided to stay in Brazil and qualified by residency.

Van Niekerk, Muller, Cremer (South Africans), Gardner, Broderick (English), Jackson (Aussie) and Reeves (NZ) are the players that recently played for Brazil due to residency rules. Moreno and Ramirez are two young Argentines that came to Brazil as U20s, no Brazilian origins as well.

Dell'Acqua (Italian), Bourda-Couhet (French), Fiori (English) and Harvey (Aussie) were not born in Brazil, but are sons of Brazilians.

Apart from Dell'Acqua, Massari, Fiori, Harvey and Gardner, all the others played or are still playing club rugby in Brazil, but all of them came as already senior players (except Ramirez and Moreno, that played for Brazil U20s, and Bourda-Couhet, that moved with 17 or 18 yo... he played one Brazilian U20s Championship).

Sancery brothers, Garcia (that came from French rugby), Bengaló (came from Portuguese rugby), Rosetti, Segura, Giantorno (that came from Argentine rugby) were born in Brazil,, but raised abroad. Massari (from Italy) I'm not sure if he was born in Brazil or not, but he has Brazilian family (nefew of a former Brazilian president, BTW) and started playing rugby in Italy AFAIK.

These are the players that recently played or still play for the Tupis that weren't products of our club rugby.

Don't mistake Nick Smith. He is Brazilian, born and raised in Brazil. His grandfather is one of the Englishmen that started rugby in Brazil. He is the last genuine English-Brazilian of the São Paulo Athletic Club that played for Brazil.
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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby JWSaunders » Fri, 01 May 2020, 19:10

Interesting, seems Brazil have a similar link to Spain in the sense of professionalism attracting players. I’m not sure if your aware of any players, but Spain has became an alternative for Southern Hemisphere players who do not meet the requirement for domestic or high tier European rugby. This includes JW Bell of South Africa, Snee and Linklater of New Zealand. It’s a shame for Spain as their sevens programme shows Spaniards born and bred have good ability yet the country is preferring foreign players over their own. Short Term it is logical, based on how close Spain were from qualifying for RWC 2019 however long term, is a Kiwi farm beneficial and allows progression. Probably not as demonstrated with Brazilian players in football playing for Hong Kong, with the end result being slightly better results yet no youth talent in the first team

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 01 May 2020, 19:31

It was an official program from the Brazilian Rugby Union to search for talents from Brazilian diaspora.
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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby JWSaunders » Fri, 01 May 2020, 22:52

And where do you think Brazilians rugby will be by the next RWC in 2023?

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Sat, 02 May 2020, 01:33

Brazilian club rugby, specialy junior rugby, is way behind Canada, Uruguay and Chile. It will be realy hard to be in 2023. Not impossible, the Brazilian team is good enough to dream, but depth will be a real problem. USA, Uruguay and Canada will keep being the favourites in the region.
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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby JWSaunders » Sat, 02 May 2020, 11:44

Uruguay are definitely improving, Chile are fairly competitive already on the sevens circuit with one off appearances and a bowl win at RWCS 2018. USA will always be Americas heavyweights especially now with the MLR start, however Canada have massively decreased in performance, considering in 2011 they were beating Japan now in 2019 not looking likely to beat Namibia if that game went ahead. It’s great to speak to someone with such extensive knowledge on the matter, however my question now is can Oceania produce even more heavyweights that are currently tier 3? I mean the Cook Islands, Niue Ana even American Samoa all have players playing professionally with heritage, so if more infrastructure can be in place and tactical scouting, will these countries potentially be up there soon?

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 03 May 2020, 13:29

JWSaunders do you live in Dubai? I think Dubai could host an annual fixture if this World League goes ahead. If South Africa plays in the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship they will have already played all but 2 of their World League fixtures before November, so why not play one of their remaining fixtures in Dubai? For Japan or Fiji it could be on the way to or from Europe.
Or, if the World League has a final Dubai could be a good neutral venue for the final. Do you think that would be popular in Dubai? That would probably be in December so it would be a bit cooler.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby 4N » Mon, 04 May 2020, 00:11

Regarding the passport discussion above, this article from today has some interesting info:

Sir Bill said he wanted that work to start straight away and believed his proposal would benefit Pacific Island nations and allow players, who might have played a sevens tournament or a handful of tests for a tier one nation, to be able to represent a second national team, provided they had a passport for that country.

Any changes to eligibility rules would require a two-thirds majority in the World Rugby Council and, while previous attempts have failed, Beaumont said he backed his ability to persuade voting members of his vision.


https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pac ... ancis-kean

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 04 May 2020, 00:17

Provided they have passport, interesting...
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