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Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournaments

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 18:21

Chester-Donnelly wrote:With SLAR, ARC and REC, European and South American teams are already playing plenty of tier 2 level teams. In the test windows the stronger teams should be playing tier 1 teams not more tier 2 teams or they'll never improve.

Southern African teams, Namibia and Zimbabwe should be playing against teams like Southern Kings and Griquas, and north African teams should be playing against RET teams or French Federale 1 teams.

This is my objection to the World League and why I talk about there being a hierarchy. What is the point of travelling thousands of miles for a game of rugby against a mediocre team in front of 300 spectators, when you could travel a few hundred miles to play a professional team in the next country?

Player welfare, timezones, cost control, carbon emissions and spreading coronavirus are all being ignored. Below tier 1 and upper tier 2 level there is no real need or justification for intercontinental travel.


You are proposing fixtures that don't do any good to atract new fans and sponsors. These are empty matches, only for diehards. You build audiences with rivalries or with ranking and titles at stake. You need meaning deeper than "oh, this is a good team to face".

Any World League must operate in a tours model. If you are going to cross timezones, you need to make it worth and have like 3 matches and those matches need to mean something for those watching it live in the stadium or on TV/internet.
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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 18:32

The first question you must ask is: what this match offers to fans/sponsors/media? Because this is a professional game that costs money - or at least a game with a complex structure. And I'm not talking about travel money. I'm talking about money to keep your staff, your national coach, a high performance academy, a U18s and/or U20s national team, some professional players (or players based abroad you want to bring), pay domestic competitions, junior club rugby, to invest in your national referees, etc etc....

You look at a Portugal vs Bedford Blues match and say: oh, it is cheaper than seeing Portugal visiting Chile. Ok, yes, but what it gives you back? It doen't offer anything to have new fans/sponsors/media. But that more expensive intercontinental match, it worths the ranking (that is a great number to show sponsors and government). If it is part of a bigger meaningful competition, boom, it gives you media, fans... therefore, it wasn't a cost, it was an investment that payed itself. Not necessarily brought money directly, but brought more attention, made you sign a better sponsor contract, made your sport have a better position with your Sports Ministry, a local municipality might want to pay the costs of your next event and so on... and the next HOME match is the moment to engage all those actors.

Non-tests against teams only rugby fans can see value are sterile, you keep walking in circles. Don't offer future resources to keep improving. They are good training matches, camps, nothing else.
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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 19:27

Namibia played Southern Kings in a rugby world cup warm up game on 31st August 2019 in Windhoek, winning 28 - 22. The game was well attended. For Namibia rugby fans, to have their best players home from their professional clubs, playing at home against one of South Africa's professional provincial teams is a big deal.

You can't just use examples from your own viewpoint and think that's applicable to all tier 2 countries. Namibia would benefit from using its test window to play against South African provincial teams, maybe in an annual quadrangular tournament against Kings, Griquas and Mpumulanga Pumas.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 19:39

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Namibia played Southern Kings in a rugby world cup warm up game on 31st August 2019 in Windhoek, winning 28 - 22. The game was well attended. For Namibia rugby fans, to have their best players home from their professional clubs, playing at home against one of South Africa's professional provincial teams is a big deal.

You can't just use examples from your own viewpoint and think that's applicable to all tier 2 countries. Namibia would benefit from using its test window to play against South African provincial teams, maybe in an annual quadrangular tournament against Kings, Griquas and Mpumulanga Pumas.

Namibia was a South African territory (former South West Africa) until 1990 and played the Currie Cup for most of its existence, with most of its rugby fans being afrikaners.... It is an absolute exception. If they had money they would be still in the Currie Cup. They played it until 2017 and ran out of money (with many internal problems, as exposed many times in this forum). They don't need a mini tournament, they need the Currie Cup itself + tests.
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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 21:13

From reading the posts on this forum I am certain that every tier 2 team is an exception. Especially the REC teams, they seem to share very little in common.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 21:27

Everybody is different from everybody someway. What I mean is that Namibia was a South African territory for more than 70 years and played the Currie Cup every year for around 50 years (since 1954: http://www.rugbyarchive.net/team/3240)... and came back to the competiton many times since the independence (in the last 30 years).

So, they have a much closer relationship with South African provincial sides than almost any REC nation has with any 6N's club rugby, or any South American nation has with Argentina's club rugby and so on.
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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 22:10

One thing I wish Namibia would do it clearly differentiate between the amateur Welwetchias team that plays in the Supersport Rugby Challenge and the Namibia national team which is made up of mostly professional rugby players based outside of Namibia. The teams should have completely different kits and different names. The Supersport Rugby Challenge team could be called something like the Windhoek Warriors, to make it clear that it is not the national team. It's also disappointing the Namibian government doesn't support the team more. They should encourage a more diverse crowd, and promote Namibia's national team a lot more. Most of the crowd is Afrikaners, all sitting in the main stand. There are three other sides to that stadium. Rather than leaving them empty, those tickets should be made available to Windhoek's schoolchildren. That is their national team, not just the Afrikaans speaking people.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 22:22

Yes, it is hard for us outsiders to understand what happens there. They have been playing every RWC since 1999, but I woudn't be surprised if someone told me soccer is still bigger there, even with a national soccer team that has never reached the QFs of the Africa Cup of Nations or played a WC... maybe the lack of a stronger African rugby scenario (apart from South Africa) makes local people don't value their achievements as much as they should. I suppose....

Maybe Namibia hasn't realised how much important would be for them if Kenya, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Madagascar were stronger.

BTW, Madagascar has just created their first professional soccer league. I saw in their news. So, rugby may be losing its position as Madagascar's national sport? Maybe, Madagascar was awesome in the last soccer's Africa Cup of Nations, beating Nigeria and DR Congo to reach the QFs for the first time ever.... interesting exemple of what rugby's poor way to manage global development costs. Nobody in the T1s will know or care about Madagascar, but they should be seen as part of the creation of a stronger Africa Rugby Cup...
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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby antlat » Sat, 25 Apr 2020, 01:16

Has anyone seen what FIBA (Basketball) have done with their competitions system.
I have loved it. See the Australian Boomers in action more often has reignited my passion for basketball again.

A similar system will work well in Rugby.

See http://www.fiba.basketball/calendar2017 for an explanation.
For the womens version, http://www.fiba.basketball/womens-calendar.
Obviously remove the Olympic Games portion. The rest could be tweaked to suit rugby.

Although the Men's is a better system, the women's version will probably suit Rugby better

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby Higgik » Sat, 25 Apr 2020, 08:29

victorsra wrote:Everybody is different from everybody someway. What I mean is that Namibia was a South African territory for more than 70 years and played the Currie Cup every year for around 50 years (since 1954: http://www.rugbyarchive.net/team/3240)... and came back to the competiton many times since the independence (in the last 30 years).

So, they have a much closer relationship with South African provincial sides than almost any REC nation has with any 6N's club rugby, or any South American nation has with Argentina's club rugby and so on.
.
The only difference to this would be that the Currie Cup should become part of Super rugby. The winners of the South African conference should be Currie Cup winners. As for Namibia, they should be supported by WR to enter the Vidacom Cup as the 15th team.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby Duke of Earl » Sat, 25 Apr 2020, 08:49

The only way the sport is going to grow is to have regular , regional tournaments where there is a priority in getting more countries playing at a high level. World Rugby has to do more to support these development of tournaments which allow the opportunity to play and increase the standard. This can be done at multiple levels.
For example , instead of having an agreed timetable of touring matches , have summer quadrangular tournaments played in markets/countries you want to develop. For example , one summer you might have USA , Spain , Georgia , Namibia, Fiji and Hong Kong all hosting 4 team competions which are full tests and teams are allocated these by World Rugby depending on world rankings. The intention is to raise standards and profile of the games in the respective countries. The following summer this is rotated and so on.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Sat, 25 Apr 2020, 20:02

Higgik wrote:
victorsra wrote:Everybody is different from everybody someway. What I mean is that Namibia was a South African territory for more than 70 years and played the Currie Cup every year for around 50 years (since 1954: http://www.rugbyarchive.net/team/3240)... and came back to the competiton many times since the independence (in the last 30 years).

So, they have a much closer relationship with South African provincial sides than almost any REC nation has with any 6N's club rugby, or any South American nation has with Argentina's club rugby and so on.
.
The only difference to this would be that the Currie Cup should become part of Super rugby. The winners of the South African conference should be Currie Cup winners. As for Namibia, they should be supported by WR to enter the Vidacom Cup as the 15th team.


Namibia, Kenya, Uganda, Zimbabwe and Madagascar, these 5 should be involved. But the issue about the Currie Cup is that they'd enter in the lower division and teams like Bulldogs, Griffons, Eagles, etc, probably can't afford such travels. The money needed would be substancial. Anyway, Nairobi-Jo'burg flights are only 4h15min long, while Kampala-Cape Town is 5h30, which countries like USA, Canada, Brazil, Australia, Russia are used to. Not that great, but crossing only 1 time zone, it is not a big deal for player welfare. The problem is the cost.
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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 27 Apr 2020, 17:05

victorsra wrote:
Higgik wrote:
victorsra wrote:Everybody is different from everybody someway. What I mean is that Namibia was a South African territory for more than 70 years and played the Currie Cup every year for around 50 years (since 1954: http://www.rugbyarchive.net/team/3240)... and came back to the competiton many times since the independence (in the last 30 years).

So, they have a much closer relationship with South African provincial sides than almost any REC nation has with any 6N's club rugby, or any South American nation has with Argentina's club rugby and so on.
.
The only difference to this would be that the Currie Cup should become part of Super rugby. The winners of the South African conference should be Currie Cup winners. As for Namibia, they should be supported by WR to enter the Vidacom Cup as the 15th team.


Namibia, Kenya, Uganda, Zimbabwe and Madagascar, these 5 should be involved. But the issue about the Currie Cup is that they'd enter in the lower division and teams like Bulldogs, Griffons, Eagles, etc, probably can't afford such travels. The money needed would be substancial. Anyway, Nairobi-Jo'burg flights are only 4h15min long, while Kampala-Cape Town is 5h30, which countries like USA, Canada, Brazil, Australia, Russia are used to. Not that great, but crossing only 1 time zone, it is not a big deal for player welfare. The problem is the cost.


Currie Cup Premier Division is a very high level competition, and is only South African teams. We need to respect that is South Africa's top level of domestic competition and should stay as such. The history and prestige of the Currie Cup adds prestige to the First Division.
Argentina and Georgia have already entered teams into the Currie Cup First Division. I think the best structure for Southern Africa would be to have 3 divisions of Currie Cup (Premier Division, Championship Division, First Division), with seven teams in each division, and promotion/relegation between divisions.
14 South African provincial teams.
Argentinian team and Georgian team.
Namibia, Kenya, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Madagascar.

Meanwhile West Africa should have its own annual tournament, which could take the form of a quadrangular tournament. And North Africa should have an annual tri series.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby JWSaunders » Tue, 28 Apr 2020, 21:30

Hopefully with the possible introduction of the new law regarding player eligibility will allow tier 2 and 3 nations to thrive more with the addition of renowned players. For example Toby Flood playing for Germany which he can do if this law introduced will be sure to attract attention and publicity to German Rugby and allow them to be more competitive. A prime example is the Cook Islands, players such as Rene Ranger, Jack Debreczeni and Chance Peni could make a huge impact to rugby standards if given the opportunity

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby 4N » Tue, 28 Apr 2020, 21:44

JWSaunders wrote:Hopefully with the possible introduction of the new law regarding player eligibility will allow tier 2 and 3 nations to thrive more with the addition of renowned players. For example Toby Flood playing for Germany which he can do if this law introduced will be sure to attract attention and publicity to German Rugby and allow them to be more competitive. A prime example is the Cook Islands, players such as Rene Ranger, Jack Debreczeni and Chance Peni could make a huge impact to rugby standards if given the opportunity


Zimbabwe and Algeria could benefit as well.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 29 Apr 2020, 07:03

JWSaunders wrote:Hopefully with the possible introduction of the new law regarding player eligibility will allow tier 2 and 3 nations to thrive more with the addition of renowned players. For example Toby Flood playing for Germany which he can do if this law introduced will be sure to attract attention and publicity to German Rugby and allow them to be more competitive. A prime example is the Cook Islands, players such as Rene Ranger, Jack Debreczeni and Chance Peni could make a huge impact to rugby standards if given the opportunity


Do you know who Nikola Karabatić is? Do you know what would happen, if he would announce, that his grandparent was born in a former part of England, which is now part of Poland? And he would therefore play Handball for England? - Answer: nothing.

I am not saying we could not have used Flood in the repechage, but it attracts f*** all publicity in Germany. It makes a joke of international competition and will create bad publictiy if any as rugby will be labelled as a joke mercenary sport where you can switch your national team as you like. Handball above is a great example as that's exactly what happened when the laws where too relaxed and Quatar bought a national team. Therefore it shouldn't be introduced.

Let the Shame Nations U18 play in the Euro again and the best of those nations will not need imports in the long run to be competitive.
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Wed, 29 Apr 2020, 11:11, edited 1 time in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 29 Apr 2020, 09:26

Rugby Liebe, I agree that having Toby Flood playing for Germany would make an absolute mockery of international rugby. Qualifying through a grandparent, and after being an England player. In my opinion a grandparent alone shouldn't qualify you. Maybe if someone had a German grandparent and had lived in Germany for 3 years that could qualify them, but even then it would depend on where they were living in Germany. I know plenty of people who lived in Germany for 3 years at some point because their father was a British soldier. That doesn't make them German.
I don't think it's right to hate the Six Nations. The Six Nations is successful. But at age grade and women's rugby should be on a European basis. I also think it's time to add a REC team to the Six Nations, making it a Seven Nations with a core of 6 and promotion/relegation for the REC team.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 29 Apr 2020, 09:43

Chester-Donnelly wrote:I don't think it's right to hate the Six Nations. The Six Nations is successful. But at age grade and women's rugby should be on a European basis.

Agree on that.

Chester-Donnelly wrote:I also think it's time to add a REC team to the Six Nations, making it a Seven Nations with a core of 6 and promotion/relegation for the REC team.


Tbh I don't care that much about that atm. Just stop bullying talented kids because they are not part of their elitist circle. When the bullying at youth level is stopped we might see results in 10 years in the national teams. Then the bullying of other national teams has to stop.
If expansion ever comes along, play a 8-team tournament with 2 groups of 4. Especially different fixtures every year make it a bit more exciting. Let the British teams play their additional matches for their whatever cups, if they need to (well they are playing each other multiple times anyway each year).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Wed, 29 Apr 2020, 10:09

Let me add to RugbyLiebe example about Qatar Handball

According to my sportwriter friends,
Qatar also bought the entire, ready-made JUDO squad ... from Moldova :shock:

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 29 Apr 2020, 10:11

You are right. If there is equal opportunity at age grade there will eventually be greater parity between national teams.
With regards to the women's Six Nations, there is a tendency in British sports whereby women's sports try to copy men's sports exactly. There is also a tendency for the BBC to promote women's sports that copy men's sports and ignore more popular women's sports such as netball and gymnastics. As such we're constantly hearing about the women's Six Nations and the women's Ashes (cricket). I don't know why, just something I have noticed. It could just be because rugby and cricket have more money than those other sports.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby 4N » Wed, 29 Apr 2020, 17:34

I would scrap the grandparent rule too. Countries like the Pacific Islands, Zimbabwe, Algeria would be getting players who qualify via place of birth or parents so wouldn’t be impacted like Spain or others would. Nigeria is another country that could benefit from ex T1 internationals btw.

Residency/the Qatar handball example is completely different and something we already see in rugby. Even with the longer residency period it will increase as professional leagues arrive in more T2 nations. Personally I would rather see a guy play for the country of his parents that he has strong cultural connections to over a country he moved to for a job in his 20s.

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby JWSaunders » Thu, 30 Apr 2020, 16:07

Rugby Liebe, I can understand your point regarding Qatar as they have little sporting history and are basically creating an all star team. The use of Flood would be different as, as you said in the repechage he could of made a massive impact in the game and potentially qualified Germany for the World Cup. This would spark immense interest in Rugby amongst Germans and hopefully increase the popularity of the sport. My point is players like Flood are temporary, they are a big name who will
bring success for a few years before they retire which hopefully leads to increased sport popularity and participation leading to younger players coming through after Floods success was an incentive for them. I will also mention Germany already are susceptible to naturalised players with the likes of Parkinson from South Africa and Te Huia from New Zealand. Also do you have any thoughts on the Cook Islands points I made, like worth their caliber of potential players they have the capability to be a Tier 2 nation for sure

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Thu, 30 Apr 2020, 16:58

If we were realy thinking about the best interests of rugby, the only thing that matters is which country/countries (can be more than one) formed a player in youth age (U20 or U18, up to discussion). That's the only thing that should matter, because makes countries invest in their own domestic rugby, expanding the sport or, at least, offering rugby a future. "Blood" is irrelevant for the sport, a misleading discussion.
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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby JWSaunders » Fri, 01 May 2020, 12:50

Victorsra, true point however as a Brazilian I’m sure your aware of the impact Josh Reeves has had. Kiwi born, a quality player however he has embraced Brazil and is definitely helping to make strides in their progression

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Re: Is there a reason why WR has not promoted mini tournamen

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 01 May 2020, 13:23

Yes, he's a great guy, married to a Brazilian, if I only think personaly it is obvious good to have him. I said before here in this forum that in the case of amateur countries (and Reeves came to Brazil as an amateur player) foreign-born players are essencial because they help local amateur rugby a lot (and Reeves is one of those guys), as players, coaches, referees, teaching kids... If we go to countries in the bottom of the ranking, there are some that probably woudn't be able to field a national team if they coudn't have foreign players.

However, Brazil is now fully professional and I think it is not good for Brazilian rugby to search for foreign players instead of giving opportunities to players coming from junior sections of our clubs. It would be just a movement against Brazilian rugby development.

I don't know how possible it would be, but maybe the ideal is to have a rule that encourages countries to invest in their youth rugby, but with something like a "development rule" helping low ranked countries to use amateur foreigners. The more you go up in the ranking, less amateur foreginers you could be allowed to use.

However, one point I don't understand about this discussion: regulation 8 says:

"8.1Subject to Regulation 8.2, a Player may only play for the senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team, the next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team and the senior National Representative Sevens Team of the Union of the country in which:(a) he was born; or(b) one parent or grandparent was born; or(c)he has completed thirty six consecutive months of Residence immediately preceding the time of playing."

Ok, but I believe (correct if I'm wrong) rugby has no authority to forbid a player to play for a country he is a CITIZEN of, right? Citizenship rules vary from country to country and that's why (I guess) they can't scrap parents or even grandparents rules... unless they just use "passport holder" as a rule? I don't have legal knowledge to talk more about, but this is an important issue. In the end, in the rugby perspective, what should matter is to encourage local youth rugby.
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