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Nations that are not countries

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Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 02:35

Many countries are made up of several nations or ethnic groups. For example, South Africa has 11 national languages and even more tribes and ethnic groups. It was historically four countries but is today united as one. The Springboks are an important unifying agent.

Many countries have semi-autonomous enclaves which could be described as countries. Spain has the Basque Country and Catalonia. But these enclaves don't usually have national sports teams. Exclaves and offshore territories often do have national sports teams, and these are often legal jurisdictions in their own right.

So, are there any semi-autonomous enclaves which are not a separate legal jurisdiction, which have a national rugby team? I think there is just one, Wales.

It is difficult to find a comprehensive list of legal jurisdictions. This list is complete for Europe, but is not complete for the Carribbean or the Pacific Nations.

https://iclg.com/jurisdictions

The legal jurisdictions for Britain and Ireland are:
Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales, Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey.

England and Wales is a single legal jurisdiction, and the legal system in that jurisdiction is English law.

This list is a lot more complete for small island nations

https://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/jurisdiction/

The legal jurisdictions are also listed here on Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... al_systems

The only country with a national rugby team that is not on any of these lists is Wales. All other countries are legal jurisdictions.

I am very glad that Wales has a national rugby team and I would be happy for other enclaves to have national rugby teams.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby victorsra » Thu, 21 May 2020, 04:11

You mean national teams that are members of international federations? Because regional teams formed to play domestic competitions and friendlies are pretty common and almost the base of our sport. And you are not considering the autonomous territories (Tahiti, Cooks, Niue, Cayman, BVI, American Samoa, Guam...), right?

I'd say the only ones that are like the Home Nations are Curaçao (a Constituent Country of the Netherlands... I'd say like Scotland in UK), French Guyana, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Reunion and Mayotte (regions de France, I'd say more or less like Hawaii or Alaska in USA), as they are integral parts of those countries. But none of them is WR member... they are only members of their continental federations and this won't change, Rugby won't start to accepting regions, as it is Olympic and will follow IOC for sure. Non-independent countries are serious political problems for sports federations to deal with. Scotland and Wales are anomalies because UK founded too many sports using those national teams.

BTW, Curaçao screwed itself with IOC. After the break of the Netherlands Antilles, with Curaçao and Sint Maarten spliting and becoming Constituent Countries, none of them was considered Netherland Antilles' successor. Which means both are now out of the Olympics, as IOC doesn't accept non-UN members anymore. FIFA, in the other hand, considered Curaçao the successor of the Netherlands Antilles.
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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 06:59

victorsra wrote:You mean national teams that are members of international federations? Because regional teams formed to play domestic competitions and friendlies are pretty common and almost the base of our sport. And you are not considering the autonomous territories (Tahiti, Cooks, Niue, Cayman, BVI, American Samoa, Guam...), right?


No, I am very deliberately drawing a distinction between offshore territories which are separate legal jurisdictions, and enclaves which are not. The United Kingdom is a political union but the parties to that union retained their legal systems, which are very different to one another. Scotland is a country which is currently in a political union with England and Wales, but from a legal perspective it is a separate country. Wales however is part of the legal jurisdiction of England and Wales.

You make an interesting point though, and helped me spot what looks like an anomaly. World Rugby ranked team 96, PYF, is French Polynesia is it not? But I have never heard of a French Polynesia rugby team. Is this one of those cases where the identity of the team does not match the official name of the team? Like where UK teams are always called Great Britain whether or not they include Northern Ireland, Isle of Man etc? Is Tahiti and French Polynesia one and the same?

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Figaro » Thu, 21 May 2020, 07:43

"Legal jurisdiction" and "Country" aren't the same thing, though. There are any number of historic reasons why particular territories might be self governing to a greater o'r lesser degree, and whether or not it has a rugby team. The fact there's no Catalan team has nothing to do with its constitutional arrangements and everything to do with the Spanish refusal to sanction it. If you're trying to look for any kind of objectivity you'll be disappointed.

Incidentally, a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction is probably on the cards in the next few years.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 08:41

Figaro wrote:"Legal jurisdiction" and "Country" aren't the same thing, though. There are any number of historic reasons why particular territories might be self governing to a greater o'r lesser degree, and whether or not it has a rugby team. The fact there's no Catalan team has nothing to do with its constitutional arrangements and everything to do with the Spanish refusal to sanction it. If you're trying to look for any kind of objectivity you'll be disappointed.

Incidentally, a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction is probably on the cards in the next few years.


""Legal jurisdiction" and "Country" aren't the same thing"" but if you look at the links showing legal jurisdictions, every nation in the World Rugby Rankings is a separate legal jurisdiction. Every one except Wales. So a separate legal jurisdiction does seem to be an indication that a land is a country rather than an enclave. Like I say, I am very pleased that Wales does have a national rugby team but I am yet to see an argument that Wales is a country.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby sammo » Thu, 21 May 2020, 08:47

Chester you are completely incorrect. Wales is a country in its own right. From https://www.wales.com/faqs

‘ Is Wales a country?

Although Wales is joined with England by land, and is part of Great Britain, Wales is a country in its own right.

On 18 September 1997, the people of Wales voted in favour of devolution in Wales. This gave Wales the powers needed to make secondary laws that affect us by an act called the Government of Wales Act 1998. In 2006, more powers were gained again for Wales with the Government of Wales Act 2006.’

From Wikipedia page ‘Countries of the United Kingdom’

‘the ISO list of the subdivisions of the UK, compiled by British Standards and the UK's Office for National Statistics, uses "country" to describe England, Scotland, and Wales.’

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby sammo » Thu, 21 May 2020, 08:59

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:"Legal jurisdiction" and "Country" aren't the same thing, though. There are any number of historic reasons why particular territories might be self governing to a greater o'r lesser degree, and whether or not it has a rugby team. The fact there's no Catalan team has nothing to do with its constitutional arrangements and everything to do with the Spanish refusal to sanction it. If you're trying to look for any kind of objectivity you'll be disappointed.

Incidentally, a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction is probably on the cards in the next few years.


""Legal jurisdiction" and "Country" aren't the same thing"" but if you look at the links showing legal jurisdictions, every nation in the World Rugby Rankings is a separate legal jurisdiction. Every one except Wales. So a separate legal jurisdiction does seem to be an indication that a land is a country rather than an enclave. Like I say, I am very pleased that Wales does have a national rugby team but I am yet to see an argument that Wales is a country.


Not every one. American Samoa is not a separate legal jurisdiction from the US. And since when do we define what is a country by who is in the rugby world rankings

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:10

sammo wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:"Legal jurisdiction" and "Country" aren't the same thing, though. There are any number of historic reasons why particular territories might be self governing to a greater o'r lesser degree, and whether or not it has a rugby team. The fact there's no Catalan team has nothing to do with its constitutional arrangements and everything to do with the Spanish refusal to sanction it. If you're trying to look for any kind of objectivity you'll be disappointed.

Incidentally, a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction is probably on the cards in the next few years.


""Legal jurisdiction" and "Country" aren't the same thing"" but if you look at the links showing legal jurisdictions, every nation in the World Rugby Rankings is a separate legal jurisdiction. Every one except Wales. So a separate legal jurisdiction does seem to be an indication that a land is a country rather than an enclave. Like I say, I am very pleased that Wales does have a national rugby team but I am yet to see an argument that Wales is a country.


Not every one. American Samoa is not a separate legal jurisdiction from the US. And since when do we define what is a country by who is in the rugby world rankings


American Samoa is a legal jurisdiction

https://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/ju ... can-samoa/

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:13

sammo wrote:Chester you are completely incorrect. Wales is a country in its own right. From https://www.wales.com/faqs

‘ Is Wales a country?

Although Wales is joined with England by land, and is part of Great Britain, Wales is a country in its own right.

On 18 September 1997, the people of Wales voted in favour of devolution in Wales. This gave Wales the powers needed to make secondary laws that affect us by an act called the Government of Wales Act 1998. In 2006, more powers were gained again for Wales with the Government of Wales Act 2006.’

From Wikipedia page ‘Countries of the United Kingdom’

‘the ISO list of the subdivisions of the UK, compiled by British Standards and the UK's Office for National Statistics, uses "country" to describe England, Scotland, and Wales.’


Yes Wales is a country in its own right, as defined by Wales, and under the definition of the United Kingdom's country of constituent countries. But not by any objective measures of what is a country.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby vino_93 » Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:22

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:You mean national teams that are members of international federations? Because regional teams formed to play domestic competitions and friendlies are pretty common and almost the base of our sport. And you are not considering the autonomous territories (Tahiti, Cooks, Niue, Cayman, BVI, American Samoa, Guam...), right?


No, I am very deliberately drawing a distinction between offshore territories which are separate legal jurisdictions, and enclaves which are not. The United Kingdom is a political union but the parties to that union retained their legal systems, which are very different to one another. Scotland is a country which is currently in a political union with England and Wales, but from a legal perspective it is a separate country. Wales however is part of the legal jurisdiction of England and Wales.

You make an interesting point though, and helped me spot what looks like an anomaly. World Rugby ranked team 96, PYF, is French Polynesia is it not? But I have never heard of a French Polynesia rugby team. Is this one of those cases where the identity of the team does not match the official name of the team? Like where UK teams are always called Great Britain whether or not they include Northern Ireland, Isle of Man etc? Is Tahiti and French Polynesia one and the same?

Tahiti is the main island of French Polynesia.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby sammo » Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:29

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
sammo wrote:Chester you are completely incorrect. Wales is a country in its own right. From https://www.wales.com/faqs

‘ Is Wales a country?

Although Wales is joined with England by land, and is part of Great Britain, Wales is a country in its own right.

On 18 September 1997, the people of Wales voted in favour of devolution in Wales. This gave Wales the powers needed to make secondary laws that affect us by an act called the Government of Wales Act 1998. In 2006, more powers were gained again for Wales with the Government of Wales Act 2006.’

From Wikipedia page ‘Countries of the United Kingdom’

‘the ISO list of the subdivisions of the UK, compiled by British Standards and the UK's Office for National Statistics, uses "country" to describe England, Scotland, and Wales.’


Yes Wales is a country in its own right, as defined by Wales, and under the definition of the United Kingdom's country of constituent countries. But not by any objective measures of what is a country.


Sorry, so Wales is a country as defined by both Wales and the United Kingdom (and therefore by ISO, the International Organisation for Standardisation), but because you say it isn’t a country, it isn’t a country?

There is no legal definition of a country, so saying it doesn’t meet any of the objective measures is meaningless.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby sammo » Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:37

Here is a simple article, maybe you will learn something - https://www.thoughtco.com/country-state ... on-1433559

To pull out the pertinent bits;

‘While the terms country, state, sovereign state, nation, and nation-state are often used interchangeably, there is a difference. Simply put:

A state is a territory with its own institutions and populations.
A sovereign state is a state with its own institutions and populations that has a permanent population, territory, and government. It must also have the right and capacity to make treaties and other agreements with other states.
A nation is a large group of people who inhabit a specific territory and are connected by history, culture, or another commonality.
A nation-state is a cultural group (a nation) that is also a state (and may, in addition, be a sovereign state).

The word country can be used to mean the same thing as state, sovereign state, or nation-state.‘

So Wales is a state (or nation-state) and a country.
Last edited by sammo on Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:39

sammo wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
sammo wrote:Chester you are completely incorrect. Wales is a country in its own right. From https://www.wales.com/faqs

‘ Is Wales a country?

Although Wales is joined with England by land, and is part of Great Britain, Wales is a country in its own right.

On 18 September 1997, the people of Wales voted in favour of devolution in Wales. This gave Wales the powers needed to make secondary laws that affect us by an act called the Government of Wales Act 1998. In 2006, more powers were gained again for Wales with the Government of Wales Act 2006.’

From Wikipedia page ‘Countries of the United Kingdom’

‘the ISO list of the subdivisions of the UK, compiled by British Standards and the UK's Office for National Statistics, uses "country" to describe England, Scotland, and Wales.’


Yes Wales is a country in its own right, as defined by Wales, and under the definition of the United Kingdom's country of constituent countries. But not by any objective measures of what is a country.


Sorry, so Wales is a country as defined by both Wales and the United Kingdom (and therefore by ISO, the International Organisation for Standardisation), but because you say it isn’t a country, it isn’t a country?

There is no legal definition of a country, so saying it doesn’t meet any of the objective measures is meaningless.


Wales self identifies as a country.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby sammo » Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:44

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
sammo wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
sammo wrote:Chester you are completely incorrect. Wales is a country in its own right. From https://www.wales.com/faqs

‘ Is Wales a country?

Although Wales is joined with England by land, and is part of Great Britain, Wales is a country in its own right.

On 18 September 1997, the people of Wales voted in favour of devolution in Wales. This gave Wales the powers needed to make secondary laws that affect us by an act called the Government of Wales Act 1998. In 2006, more powers were gained again for Wales with the Government of Wales Act 2006.’

From Wikipedia page ‘Countries of the United Kingdom’

‘the ISO list of the subdivisions of the UK, compiled by British Standards and the UK's Office for National Statistics, uses "country" to describe England, Scotland, and Wales.’


Yes Wales is a country in its own right, as defined by Wales, and under the definition of the United Kingdom's country of constituent countries. But not by any objective measures of what is a country.


Sorry, so Wales is a country as defined by both Wales and the United Kingdom (and therefore by ISO, the International Organisation for Standardisation), but because you say it isn’t a country, it isn’t a country?

There is no legal definition of a country, so saying it doesn’t meet any of the objective measures is meaningless.


Wales self identifies as a country.


Ok, and what does the UK define Wales as?

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:44

Countries are social constructs. Wales is non-binary and exists on a spectrum of countries and lands, but self identities as a country.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:45

Figaro wrote:"Legal jurisdiction" and "Country" aren't the same thing, though. There are any number of historic reasons why particular territories might be self governing to a greater o'r lesser degree, and whether or not it has a rugby team. The fact there's no Catalan team has nothing to do with its constitutional arrangements and everything to do with the Spanish refusal to sanction it. If you're trying to look for any kind of objectivity you'll be disappointed.

Incidentally, a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction is probably on the cards in the next few years.

Actually there is a law here explaining when regions can apply for admittance into international federations. Which is of little value given it was published in modern times, when all pieces were set in big sports, but there is. Basically they are allowed wherever there was no Spanish representation at the moment of requesting it.

I think we already discussed this in 2017 when the Catalan referendum happened. The biggest problem with Catalan and/or Basque national teams isn't their existance per se, it's how the hell do you call, what identity you give to the rest of Spain. Spain without them is no longer Spain. And it isn't Castille either, I am not a Castillian by any means. What national team would you think a guy from Penyagolosa, in Castellon near Catalonia, would be related to, Catalonia or Castille? And a guy from Torrevieja, the opposite end of Conunitat Valenciana, where Catalan/Valencian was never spoken? I believe the only situation where that could happen in the UK might be Cornwall, but we would have dozens of Cornwalls here.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby sammo » Thu, 21 May 2020, 09:48

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Countries are social constructs. Wales is non-binary and exists on a spectrum of countries and lands, but self identities as a country.


Ok, so Wales is a country?

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 11:10

sammo wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Countries are social constructs. Wales is non-binary and exists on a spectrum of countries and lands, but self identities as a country.


Ok, so Wales is a country?


Yes, according to Wales, Wales is a country. Also Caitlyn Jenner is a woman and Rachel Dolezal is black. We are what we say we are.

Also Wales is a country because it has a national rugby team. Wales has a national rugby team because it is a country.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 12:05

Armchair Fan wrote:
Figaro wrote:"Legal jurisdiction" and "Country" aren't the same thing, though. There are any number of historic reasons why particular territories might be self governing to a greater o'r lesser degree, and whether or not it has a rugby team. The fact there's no Catalan team has nothing to do with its constitutional arrangements and everything to do with the Spanish refusal to sanction it. If you're trying to look for any kind of objectivity you'll be disappointed.

Incidentally, a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction is probably on the cards in the next few years.

Actually there is a law here explaining when regions can apply for admittance into international federations. Which is of little value given it was published in modern times, when all pieces were set in big sports, but there is. Basically they are allowed wherever there was no Spanish representation at the moment of requesting it.

I think we already discussed this in 2017 when the Catalan referendum happened. The biggest problem with Catalan and/or Basque national teams isn't their existance per se, it's how the hell do you call, what identity you give to the rest of Spain. Spain without them is no longer Spain. And it isn't Castille either, I am not a Castillian by any means. What national team would you think a guy from Penyagolosa, in Castellon near Catalonia, would be related to, Catalonia or Castille? And a guy from Torrevieja, the opposite end of Conunitat Valenciana, where Catalan/Valencian was never spoken? I believe the only situation where that could happen in the UK might be Cornwall, but we would have dozens of Cornwalls here.


Yes I see the problem there. We don't seem to have the same problem in UK. Our citizenship is British. Our nationality is English, Welsh etc. Cornish is a nationality but only a tiny minority of Cornish would claim that Cornwall is a country and it has no characteristics of being a country. But if the people of Cornwall all decided that they are a country and want their own national rugby team I don't think there would be any objection from the English. They would still be Cornish and we would still be English.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby sammo » Thu, 21 May 2020, 12:07

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
sammo wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Countries are social constructs. Wales is non-binary and exists on a spectrum of countries and lands, but self identities as a country.


Ok, so Wales is a country?


Yes, according to Wales, Wales is a country.


By saying this you imply that other people say that Wales isn’t a country. I don’t understand why you have a problem with it.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 12:19

sammo wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
sammo wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Countries are social constructs. Wales is non-binary and exists on a spectrum of countries and lands, but self identities as a country.


Ok, so Wales is a country?


Yes, according to Wales, Wales is a country.


By saying this you imply that other people say that Wales isn’t a country. I don’t understand why you have a problem with it.


OK, fine, Wales is a country, but only because if Wales isn't a country then neither is England.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Figaro » Thu, 21 May 2020, 13:56

If you want to know why Wales and Scotland have separate national teams then it's necessary to consider not what we consider a country today, but what kinds of features would have been important in the 19th century when international sport began. "Britain" doesn't figure very much in people's writing at that time, and the way the Welsh and Scottish are discussed in English political and cultural discourse is very much in the same terms as the Germans or the French (for example).

Remember that the connection between National Identity and Self-Determination /Political independence is pretty recent. Germany wasn't a political unit before 1871 but very much existed as an idea and it would be preposterous to suggest that Germany didn't exist prior to that date. Things like culture and especially language were far more important to people's idea of what a country was, or wasn't.

Northern Ireland and the republic have separate football teams but actually football is the anomaly. In pretty much every other sport Ireland is treated as a unit (like in Rugby), or NI is part of GB.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby victorsra » Thu, 21 May 2020, 14:08

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:You mean national teams that are members of international federations? Because regional teams formed to play domestic competitions and friendlies are pretty common and almost the base of our sport. And you are not considering the autonomous territories (Tahiti, Cooks, Niue, Cayman, BVI, American Samoa, Guam...), right?


No, I am very deliberately drawing a distinction between offshore territories which are separate legal jurisdictions, and enclaves which are not. The United Kingdom is a political union but the parties to that union retained their legal systems, which are very different to one another. Scotland is a country which is currently in a political union with England and Wales, but from a legal perspective it is a separate country. Wales however is part of the legal jurisdiction of England and Wales.

You make an interesting point though, and helped me spot what looks like an anomaly. World Rugby ranked team 96, PYF, is French Polynesia is it not? But I have never heard of a French Polynesia rugby team. Is this one of those cases where the identity of the team does not match the official name of the team? Like where UK teams are always called Great Britain whether or not they include Northern Ireland, Isle of Man etc? Is Tahiti and French Polynesia one and the same?

French Polynesia = Tahiti

They use Tahiti as their official name in sports (or in most of the sports, not sure if there is a sport that they use French Polynesia). Tahiti is the main island and I honestly never understood why they opted for it.
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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 14:23

victorsra wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:You mean national teams that are members of international federations? Because regional teams formed to play domestic competitions and friendlies are pretty common and almost the base of our sport. And you are not considering the autonomous territories (Tahiti, Cooks, Niue, Cayman, BVI, American Samoa, Guam...), right?


No, I am very deliberately drawing a distinction between offshore territories which are separate legal jurisdictions, and enclaves which are not. The United Kingdom is a political union but the parties to that union retained their legal systems, which are very different to one another. Scotland is a country which is currently in a political union with England and Wales, but from a legal perspective it is a separate country. Wales however is part of the legal jurisdiction of England and Wales.

You make an interesting point though, and helped me spot what looks like an anomaly. World Rugby ranked team 96, PYF, is French Polynesia is it not? But I have never heard of a French Polynesia rugby team. Is this one of those cases where the identity of the team does not match the official name of the team? Like where UK teams are always called Great Britain whether or not they include Northern Ireland, Isle of Man etc? Is Tahiti and French Polynesia one and the same?

French Polynesia = Tahiti

They use Tahiti as their official name in sports (or in most of the sports, not sure if there is a sport that they use French Polynesia). Tahiti is the main island and I honestly never understood why they opted for it.


Thanks. It sounds like it's pretty much the same situation as UK sports teams being called Great Britain or Team GB. The name of the largest island has been used historically to be synonymous with the name of the entire country. The name/brand has stuck and the history and identity of the name is more important to most people than its accuracy.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Canalina » Thu, 21 May 2020, 14:25

In rugby there's the particular case of Usa South: they're both member of Rugby Americas North and part (geographically, politically and "rugbistically") of an other Rugby Americas North member

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