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Nations that are not countries

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 14:53

Canalina wrote:In rugby there's the particular case of Usa South: they're both member of Rugby Americas North and part (geographically, politically and "rugbistically") of an other Rugby Americas North member

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Yes they are particularly interesting, especially now they have four of USA's ten MLR teams. Southern USA does seem to be USA's strongest rugby region.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby victorsra » Thu, 21 May 2020, 14:55

The official name of Tahitian Rugby Union is: Fédération Tahitienne de Rugby de Polynésie Française

French Polynesia has around 280k people and 5 subdivisons:

- Îles du Vent (part of the Îles de la Société), where Tahiti is: around 210k people (more than 130k in Tahiti)
- Îles Sous-le-Vent (part of the Îles de la Société), where Bora-Bora is: around 35k people
- Îles Tuamotu-Gambier: around 17k people
- Îles Marquises (Marquesas Islands, 1300 km from Tahiti!): a bit less than 10k people
- Îles Australes: around 7k people

But I couldn't find information about their domestic rugby, if there is rugby in Marquises, Australes, Tuamotu or Gambier...

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In Football (their main sport), in the other hand, their federation (FIFA member) is called only Fédération Tahitienne de Football, but it was founded by the fusion of Fédération Tahitienne des Sports Athlétiques and Ligue de Football de Polynésie Française. Their football league is Tahiti-based, but clubs from the regional leagues of the other islands play in their national cup. It makes sense, as those islands have small populations and are too far from Tahiti.
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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby victorsra » Thu, 21 May 2020, 15:10

World Rugby's bye-laws are omitted about what is the definition of a "national union" and a "territorial union", terms they use: https://www.world.rugby/handbook/bye-laws This is interesting, because other sports federations, like IOC, use UN-membership (since 1996) as criterea for new entries, although Kosovo was accepted recently without being a UN-member (but IOC accepted them as being recognised by 112 UN-members... you can discuss the political meanings of it). Territories that aren't UN-members were admitted prior to 1996 and they kept their status. That's the reason for the recent Curaçao drama. That's also why Faroe Islands and Macau aren't IOC-remembers too, for exemple, but of POC (Paralympics) members.

FIFA, in the other hand, only accepts countries that are members of the continental federations and each continental federation has its rules. So FIFA is more open to dependent territories. However, for exemple UEFA is not accepting anymore non-UN members, what was used as a reason to keep Greenland or Jersey away AFAIK. But there is Gibraltar's case, so... I don't know much more than this.
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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Canalina » Thu, 21 May 2020, 17:41

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Canalina wrote:In rugby there's the particular case of Usa South: they're both member of Rugby Americas North and part (geographically, politically and "rugbistically") of an other Rugby Americas North member

Image


Yes they are particularly interesting, especially now they have four of USA's ten MLR teams. Southern USA does seem to be USA's strongest rugby region.

"Usa South" means in realty "Usa South-East": id est, ideally dividing the USA in fourth quarters, just the quarter of states in the south-eastern part. California, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Texas... are not part of Usa South.
I don't know if recently the situation is changed but until few years ago the south-east was the weakest side of US rugby

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 18:01

Canalina wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Canalina wrote:In rugby there's the particular case of Usa South: they're both member of Rugby Americas North and part (geographically, politically and "rugbistically") of an other Rugby Americas North member

Image


Yes they are particularly interesting, especially now they have four of USA's ten MLR teams. Southern USA does seem to be USA's strongest rugby region.

"Usa South" means in realty "Usa South-East": id est, ideally dividing the USA in fourth quarters, just the quarter of states in the south-eastern part. California, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Texas... are not part of Usa South.
I don't know if recently the situation is changed but until few years ago the south-east was the weakest side of US rugby


Austin, Houston, Atlanta and New Orleans are the four MLR teams in the Southern USA region. DC is sometimes included in the South but for the purposes of USA South I don't believe they are in the region. New York and New England are in the North East. Toronto is in Canada. There are no MLR teams in the Mid West. There are three MLR teams in the West: Seattle, Utah and San Diego. There was a fourth, Colorado, but that team has left MLR.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby 4N » Thu, 21 May 2020, 18:03

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Canalina wrote:In rugby there's the particular case of Usa South: they're both member of Rugby Americas North and part (geographically, politically and "rugbistically") of an other Rugby Americas North member

Image


Yes they are particularly interesting, especially now they have four of USA's ten MLR teams. Southern USA does seem to be USA's strongest rugby region.


The opposite is true. Outside of Texas it’s the region where rugby is least developed.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 18:20

4N wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Canalina wrote:In rugby there's the particular case of Usa South: they're both member of Rugby Americas North and part (geographically, politically and "rugbistically") of an other Rugby Americas North member

Image


Yes they are particularly interesting, especially now they have four of USA's ten MLR teams. Southern USA does seem to be USA's strongest rugby region.


The opposite is true. Outside of Texas it’s the region where rugby is least developed.


OK, nevertheless it is the region with the most MLR teams, and there are plans for a fifth team, in Dallas.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 18:25

4N wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Canalina wrote:In rugby there's the particular case of Usa South: they're both member of Rugby Americas North and part (geographically, politically and "rugbistically") of an other Rugby Americas North member

Image


Yes they are particularly interesting, especially now they have four of USA's ten MLR teams. Southern USA does seem to be USA's strongest rugby region.


The opposite is true. Outside of Texas it’s the region where rugby is least developed.


From the outside it is surprising to hear that the region with the most MLR teams is the region where rugby is the least developed. The Midwest region has no MLR teams. I wonder why.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby 4N » Thu, 21 May 2020, 18:28

Because team locations have nothing to do with local rugby strength. They set up where they can find investors.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Canalina » Thu, 21 May 2020, 18:30

I don't think Texas is part of Usa South, in rugby

In their website I haven't found an explicit list of the involved states, but some lists of players chosen for the various Selects seem confirming that Texas is not in their ambit

For example in one of last year's Usa South U19 games the players came from these states
Alabama 2
Arkansas 0
Florida 2
Georgia 11 (of course Georgia is the main rugby state of the region...)
Kentucky 1
Louisiana 1
Mississippi 0
Missouri 2
North Carolina 1
Ohio 1
Oklahoma 1
South Carolina 1
Tennesse 9
Texas 0
Virginia 0

And a "poem" in their website so sings
From the Mason Dixon to the Florida Quays,
across the gulf to New Orleans,
onboard a paddle steamer and the mighty Mississippi straights,
steaming north to Little Rock, and further on, Memphis awaits.
...
Tennessee moonshine and Georgia peaches,
The beauty of the Carolinas and the Florida beaches,
Alabama cotton fields and Mississippi mudcats,
Louisiana jazz and Arkansas river rats.
...

http://www.usarugbysouthpanthers.com/a-poem.html

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby 4N » Thu, 21 May 2020, 18:33

It isn’t, they have their own union that covers parts of neighboring states. His statement was “Southern USA does seem to be USA's strongest rugby region.“

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 18:38

4N wrote:It isn’t, they have their own union that covers parts of neighboring states. His statement was “Southern USA does seem to be USA's strongest rugby region.“


OK, In that case they have two teams.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby 4N » Thu, 21 May 2020, 19:20

Rugby aside though the south is a great place. Love the food and the weather and the passion for college football down here is just like the midwest.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 19:40

4N wrote:Rugby aside though the south is a great place. Love the food and the weather and the passion for college football down here is just like the midwest.


Is there a Texas team, like USA South? There doesn't seem to be.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby 4N » Thu, 21 May 2020, 19:49

Junior and collegiate select sides but not a senior team that I can recall.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Canalina » Thu, 21 May 2020, 19:50

4N wrote:Rugby aside though the south is a great place. Love the food and the weather and the passion for college football down here is just like the midwest.

I like the stories of those places; from Tom Sawyer to Brother Rabbit, from The Rescuers to True Detective...

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby 4N » Thu, 21 May 2020, 19:56

Getting back to the thread topic, Quebec would be another one. Rugby wasn’t really embraced by the Francophone community there for a long time but they have made some strides recently. It would be big for Canada if rugby caught on there, they produce a lot of good players in hockey and Canadian football. They beat traditional power British Columbia for the first time at any level (U19) a couple of years ago.

French Barbarians planned to play Canada in Montreal this summer before the virus came along. Hopefully that happens next year.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby 4N » Thu, 21 May 2020, 19:59

Canalina wrote:
4N wrote:Rugby aside though the south is a great place. Love the food and the weather and the passion for college football down here is just like the midwest.

I like the stories of those places; from Tom Sawyer to Brother Rabbit, from The Rescuers to True Detective...


Louisiana is a really fascinating place. I would definitely recommend a visit.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 21 May 2020, 20:15

4N wrote:
Canalina wrote:
4N wrote:Rugby aside though the south is a great place. Love the food and the weather and the passion for college football down here is just like the midwest.

I like the stories of those places; from Tom Sawyer to Brother Rabbit, from The Rescuers to True Detective...


Louisiana is a really fascinating place. I would definitely recommend a visit.


The legal system in Louisiana is based on French and Spanish civil law (pre-Nepolionic) which derives from Roman law. The other 49 states and federal law is derived from English common law. Also Louisiana has parishes instead of counties. It is fascinating how Louisiana still retains elements of being a separate country.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby TheStroBro » Thu, 21 May 2020, 22:49

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Canalina wrote:In rugby there's the particular case of Usa South: they're both member of Rugby Americas North and part (geographically, politically and "rugbistically") of an other Rugby Americas North member

Image


Yes they are particularly interesting, especially now they have four of USA's ten MLR teams. Southern USA does seem to be USA's strongest rugby region.


It's really not that interesting. The quality of many of the T3 and T4s in RAN is not that high. USA Rugby South is the highest level of competition as a select side and regional age grade program. The program has competed in RAN Championships for almost a decade. I think it occurred because they killed the NA4 and the Churchill Cup.

How the USA South XVs would fit within the hierarchy of USA Rugby if it was wouldn't even be the F Side fielded, maybe a G or H. They have had a few MLR players turn out for them in RAN Championships. I'm sure that Canada was given the opportunity to put a provincial Union into the competition but chose against that.

If anything having the Panthers in the RAN competition is more similar to when the Irish Wolfhounds and the Saxons were in the Churchill Cup.

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
4N wrote:Rugby aside though the south is a great place. Love the food and the weather and the passion for college football down here is just like the midwest.


Is there a Texas team, like USA South? There doesn't seem to be.


USA South is pretty unique. They run regional age grades through Senior team as one program. The closest thing now to USA South on the Senior side is Capital Rugby Union Selects. Midwest Rubgy Union sometimes fields a Midwest All-Stars. But overall USA South as a program is the remnants of our provincial competition which was called the Inter-Territorial Tournament which died a rapid death with the introduction of the NA4 in 2005. And the last ITT being in for XVs from what I can find was in 2007. There was a 7s ITT up until 2010.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Canalina » Sun, 24 May 2020, 19:12

These should be, I think, the states composing Usa South: in orange the "core states", in yellow the collateral states (but in the list of the U19 team I've seen also a player marked "OH", that should be Ohio)

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 24 May 2020, 22:09

Canalina wrote:These should be, I think, the states composing Usa South: in orange the "core states", in yellow the collateral states (but in the list of the U19 team I've seen also a player marked "OH", that should be Ohio)

Image


Nice map. If the core states was a country it would be the twentieth most populous country in the world at 70 million people. More than France but less than Germany.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby TheStroBro » Sun, 24 May 2020, 23:30

Canalina wrote:These should be, I think, the states composing Usa South: in orange the "core states", in yellow the collateral states (but in the list of the U19 team I've seen also a player marked "OH", that should be Ohio)

Image


So Oklahoma is part of Texas Rugby Union, not USA South. Arkansas and Louisiana are blurred with clubs being members of TRU or USA South. Little Rock (Arkansas) is actually a member of the Frontier Rugby Union. Kentucky is a member of the Mid West Rugby Union. Virginia is a member of the Capital Rugby Union, and some clubs in North Carolina are part of Capital as well.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 25 May 2020, 03:38

TheStroBro wrote:
Canalina wrote:These should be, I think, the states composing Usa South: in orange the "core states", in yellow the collateral states (but in the list of the U19 team I've seen also a player marked "OH", that should be Ohio)

Image


So Oklahoma is part of Texas Rugby Union, not USA South. Arkansas and Louisiana are blurred with clubs being members of TRU or USA South. Little Rock (Arkansas) is actually a member of the Frontier Rugby Union. Kentucky is a member of the Mid West Rugby Union. Virginia is a member of the Capital Rugby Union, and some clubs in North Carolina are part of Capital as well.


USA South runs age grade representative teams and the senior team (USA South Panthers) for Southeastern United States but it is not a union. Rugby in the region is administered by the following geographical unions: True South Geographical Union, Carolinas Geographical Union, and Florida Rugby Union, plus Georgia Rugby Union which is not one of USA Rugby's 13 geographic rugby unions.

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Re: Nations that are not countries

Unread postby amz » Mon, 25 May 2020, 13:53

Very interesting discussion but I wouldn't call many of the territories mentioned above as actual nations...

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