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German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 11 Jan 2018, 07:54

sk 88 wrote:Could someone describe the dispute in one sentence? I don't really understand what has caused the fallout and what are the stumbling blocks to returning to last year's set up.


Sponsor thinks he knows better than the federation (points given that there are good arguments for both sides) and he mistakes a sponsorship for an investment and wants all the money revenue. Instead of going the usual way of trying to become elected president of the federation, he pulls a childish shitshow to show everyone that nothing works without his support. While doing this he puts the whole of German rugby at risk as the federation simply can't give in to some of his apparent demands.
Wild should actually fire whoever told him to act like that.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 11 Jan 2018, 07:57

In the end he is destroying his own work.

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Re: German rugby

Postby ihateblazers » Thu, 11 Jan 2018, 08:05

Don't really know anything about the guy apart from a few snippets in the press but it seems completely out of character

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 11 Jan 2018, 08:16

ihateblazers wrote:Don't really know anything about the guy apart from a few snippets in the press but it seems completely out of character


He is a family business man. Those guys, especially from his generation, normally want control about everything. Doesn't seem to be completely out of character from my point of view.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby amz » Thu, 11 Jan 2018, 10:48

datodato is probably upset because as a consequence of this scandal Germany won't be able to beat Romania again :D

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Re: German rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 11 Jan 2018, 14:56

Uruguay is one of the few top 25 countries that never uses foreign players. Lemoine led a 100% local almost amateur team to the World Cup. Uruguay is also doing a strong U20s job, beating Fiji. And it is a country with less than 4 million people absolutely mad about football. That is the kind of knowledge that can be useful for Germany in a long term development project focused on local players.
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Re: German rugby

Postby datodato » Thu, 11 Jan 2018, 16:10

amz wrote:datodato is probably upset because as a consequence of this scandal Germany won't be able to beat Romania again :D


100% brother

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Re: German rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 11 Jan 2018, 19:34

Wild owns a Business, he's being charitable to the sport he loves. Union focuses purely on 7s with the minister of sport having a financial stake in Oktoberfest 7s, of course there is going to be issues between men. What you just showed is that Wild Fully funded your entire 15s program, that sounds like it is the Union's fault. Not his, he's being generous.

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Re: German rugby

Postby DragonMike » Thu, 11 Jan 2018, 20:31

sk 88 wrote:Could someone describe the dispute in one sentence? I don't really understand what has caused the fallout and what are the stumbling blocks to returning to last year's set up.


Specifically, the 15s were run by wilds rugby organisation and staff employed by him. The contract was up and he also wanted control of the matches and revenues. The drv had previously tendered out games, but wanted more direct running of the marketing and revenues themselves, and had dhl as a sponsor so could be a bit more independent.

I think thats the situation, maybe i missed something. There was some talk that worls rugby werent happy with wild getting too much influence, but communication has been minimal.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Masochist » Sat, 13 Jan 2018, 00:30

RugbyLiebe wrote:
sk 88 wrote:Could someone describe the dispute in one sentence? I don't really understand what has caused the fallout and what are the stumbling blocks to returning to last year's set up.


Sponsor thinks he knows better than the federation (points given that there are good arguments for both sides) and he mistakes a sponsorship for an investment and wants all the money revenue. Instead of going the usual way of trying to become elected president of the federation, he pulls a childish shitshow to show everyone that nothing works without his support. While doing this he puts the whole of German rugby at risk as the federation simply can't give in to some of his apparent demands.
Wild should actually fire whoever told him to act like that.

Your're forgetting he actually did try to install his puppet as a president. This was at the DRT 2017 when he differneces between DRV and WRA first came to light.


TheStroBro wrote:Wild owns a Business, he's being charitable to the sport he loves. Union focuses purely on 7s with the minister of sport having a financial stake in Oktoberfest 7s, of course there is going to be issues between men. What you just showed is that Wild Fully funded your entire 15s program, that sounds like it is the Union's fault. Not his, he's being generous.

This is bullshit. The state funds 7s because it's an olympic sport. The Union funded for example the coach for 15s. And no, you shouldn't be able to own a national team like a club. If you want to invest into it you have to expect to not yield a profit.

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Re: German rugby

Postby CM » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 17:00

So the next round of news from Germany:
This month the union will probably give itself a new structure. The league and the state unions will get their own official committee, and the administrative jobs will be split from the board.

Also the league has decided too implement some changes, trying to implement some minimum standards and will think about doing some marketing together.

And because this is an internet forum and rumors are just the best on here, apparently Mr. Wild has met the "EP rugby boss" http://www.heraldlive.co.za/sport/2018/ ... ugby-boss/

And maybe the Wild guys will play in the ENC. At least according to the RNZ a newspaper from Heidelberg.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 17:05

DragonMike wrote:
sk 88 wrote:Could someone describe the dispute in one sentence? I don't really understand what has caused the fallout and what are the stumbling blocks to returning to last year's set up.


Specifically, the 15s were run by wilds rugby organisation and staff employed by him. The contract was up and he also wanted control of the matches and revenues. The drv had previously tendered out games, but wanted more direct running of the marketing and revenues themselves, and had dhl as a sponsor so could be a bit more independent.

I think thats the situation, maybe i missed something. There was some talk that worls rugby werent happy with wild getting too much influence, but communication has been minimal.



Thank you for the response, and also thank you to RugbyLiebe & Masochist.

Would it perhaps be fair to say that DRV were being sensible in trying to reduce their dependence on Wild, but should have done a lot better at managing his ego to keep him inside the tent and contributing?

Without knowing the exact details of what went on you can see how Wild might feel that his hard work (& hard cash) has been under appreciated if the DRV have left him with the impression they don't need him any more. I find it hard to believe that its a simple black & white situation of Wild being totally unreasonable or in the wrong.

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Re: German rugby

Postby 4N » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 17:36

CM wrote:And because this is an internet forum and rumors are just the best on here, apparently Mr. Wild has met the "EP rugby boss" http://www.heraldlive.co.za/sport/2018/ ... ugby-boss/


Seems odd tbh, like he is more concerned about finding cheap players for Stade than helping Germans develop.

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Re: German rugby

Postby DragonMike » Wed, 17 Jan 2018, 08:56

sk 88 wrote:
DragonMike wrote:
sk 88 wrote:Could someone describe the dispute in one sentence? I don't really understand what has caused the fallout and what are the stumbling blocks to returning to last year's set up.


Specifically, the 15s were run by wilds rugby organisation and staff employed by him. The contract was up and he also wanted control of the matches and revenues. The drv had previously tendered out games, but wanted more direct running of the marketing and revenues themselves, and had dhl as a sponsor so could be a bit more independent.

I think thats the situation, maybe i missed something. There was some talk that worls rugby werent happy with wild getting too much influence, but communication has been minimal.



Thank you for the response, and also thank you to RugbyLiebe & Masochist.

Would it perhaps be fair to say that DRV were being sensible in trying to reduce their dependence on Wild, but should have done a lot better at managing his ego to keep him inside the tent and contributing?

Without knowing the exact details of what went on you can see how Wild might feel that his hard work (& hard cash) has been under appreciated if the DRV have left him with the impression they don't need him any more. I find it hard to believe that its a simple black & white situation of Wild being totally unreasonable or in the wrong.


Im not an insider so this is just my view...

I dont think it is about bruised egos at all, it is more about a different vision of the way forward, and who gets to do that. Everyone wants the best, but like typical rugby players (both camps are being led by ex second rowers who ironically occasionally played together for Germany....), it is a bit all or nothing. There is definitely a need for an Ian Ritchie here, but it is not clear exactly how the negotiation process ran and who was guilty.

In the public discussion, I think the balance of guilt lies on the Wild side for their tactics though, they have been extremely aggressive. Their was an absolutely incompetent botched coup at the DRV AGM, and now a strike. The DRV have played a good game though, mostly letting the WRA stumble in public. The coup at the AGM in July was astonishingly poorly organised, its quite likely that if they had campaigned for it in advance they would have got their own president in, but essentially somebody nobody had ever heard of turned up unannounced, ignored due process, and announced a candidate that hadn't even managed to turn up for the vote, even though he is well known and liked.

On Wilds plus side, the DRV up until this weekend had an extremely simple structure which resulted in a lot of very bad and inconsistent decision making historically. Essentially all rules, much of the national team structure and nearly all staffing appointments were made at a single yearly meeting of the clubs, who are utterly incapable and unwilling to deliver elite rugby. All key personnel are voluntary officers voted at this meeting. As such there is no real ability to deliver, little consistency in decision making, no appetite for elite rugby or understanding of "high performance" rugby, and the odd financial disaster. So essentially the risk is that what has been built in XVs, if it goes back to the DRV (it has), could eventually fall back under the control of the clubs and an amateur DRV. At the moment they have DHL money to run a more professional organisation, but the strike was portrayed as a protest at the slow progress. In reality it seems like a desperate last gambit to get back control, with an open call to sack the president and the new director of the Xvs programme (who previously built out the 7s programme).

The DRV has as of last week got through a more professional structure, with less influence from the clubs. It seems the way forward is decided, and short term Germany are likely to slip down the rankings in XVs, unless Wild continues to hire in players and allow the DRV to use them as they please. Lets see what happens...

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Re: German rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 17 Jan 2018, 22:03

I would also imagine that Wild, as a major donor, was disappointed with the way that DRV was handling the progression of rugby and stepped in. I don't think it's a matter of him feeling entitled as an investor but rather that he felt the DRV wasn't doing anything and the academy was the only thing giving them a chance. I would be pretty unhappy if I cared about the sport and invested in it and saw the national union squander that investment/donation.

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Re: German rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 02:56

That's all well and good but there seems to be a discounting of the fact that there has been ZERO funding for XVs coming from the Union and the government only gives grants to their Olympic 7s program which isn't even on the World Series. So Wild was funding the entirety of XVs HP.

Now, let's look at the business interests. Wild owns a major corporation, now also Stade Francais. He'd also like a Pro14 team in Germany.

DRV President is a competitor in ego as he's a silent owner in Oktoberfest 7s and is going to bid on a series stop when the Series realigns in 2018. He's not supporting XVs at all.

DRV is just 6 years off from being bankrupt and without Wild there would be no XVs as you know it.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 09:50

Tobar wrote:I would also imagine that Wild, as a major donor, was disappointed with the way that DRV was handling the progression of rugby and stepped in. I don't think it's a matter of him feeling entitled as an investor but rather that he felt the DRV wasn't doing anything and the academy was the only thing giving them a chance. I would be pretty unhappy if I cared about the sport and invested in it and saw the national union squander that investment/donation.


So where did the DRV squander anything? The DRV made a huge (and I mean huge) step forward in EVERY single regard in the last 2 years. Be it the national teams, organization, etc. Yes Wild had a huge involvement in it, but I don't know or have ever heard of a single thing the DRV squandered.

TheStroBro wrote:DRV is just 6 years off from being bankrupt and without Wild there would be no XVs as you know it.

Maybe you don't know why the DRV was about to be bankrupt. It was because government funding didn't arrive as planned. I'm quite sure such amateur assumptions of payments the former DRV-president assumed, are a thing of the past today. Yeah, having a big donor/sponsor does help.

TheStroBro wrote:DRV President is a competitor in ego as he's a silent owner in Oktoberfest 7s and is going to bid on a series stop when the Series realigns in 2018. He's not supporting XVs at all.

The DRV-president Klaus Blank is not a silent owner in the Oktoberfest 7s. DRV-sport director Manuel Wilhelm is. Various of my very different sources say Wild wasn't interested himself in being part of the Oktoberfest 7s. Saying Wilhelm, a XV national player up until 2013ish doesn't support XV is a joke. He is the founder of totalrugby.de behind most media relations, etc. etc.

Not sure how you come to this assumption that XVs isn't supported at all. He was also the "Leistungssportreferent" ("high performance referent") until Dezember 2016. He was payed to overwatch the 7s program because that's where the money for his position came and comes from. Off course he had a focus on 7s. It was his bloody job until 2017 and to put this in perspective he was one of 2,5 DRV-employees. He started reforms to give the DRV a future. And he did a great job. Since he became sport director who oversees the whole DRV national teams you can see the structural reforms and the next reforms are up fro discussion end of january at a DRV-AGM.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Gnadental » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 10:23

All parties need to stop bickering and get on with a medium and long term plan for the Elite game in Germany. There are some cracking players in the youth system some of whom will go to other unions if no pathway is open to them that develops their game. I use as an example Jack Hunt European U18s 7s Player of the Tournament. 13 tries in 6 matches including a win against the holders and subsequently European Champions 2017, Ireland. Through parentage he has been offered a place in the Munster Rugby Academy. How can Germany retain such talent if there is no, or very limited, development and match opportunities? U20s are a disaster with no structure to bring U18 on or develop the older lads. In the absence of quality club or university rugby the National Squad training needs to take place at least monthly with training games every six weeks.

There must be a means to get German eligible players into second tier clubs in France and the UK. Who in the DRV/ Wild system could push this?

Dr Wild has the means to develop several players in his Stade Francais Academy but as yet there are no German players there that I am aware of.

Gnadental

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 13:00

Gnadental wrote:How can Germany retain such talent if there is no, or very limited, development and match opportunities? U20s are a disaster with no structure to bring U18 on or develop the older lads. In the absence of quality club or university rugby the National Squad training needs to take place at least monthly with training games every six weeks.


To be fair: for this exact point only England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Italy are to blame. They left the European 15s U18 Championship on full purpose after Ireland and Scotland finished 7/8 and 8/8 behind Georgia and Portugal. Those Shame Nations and Italy are to blame that other nation's kids don't get the opportunity they deserve. As long as they behave like little lords who don't want to play with the peasants you can do whatever you want, but you will never have any meaningful development ways in other Euro Nations. This is what you get when your sport has a cast system like rugby. It is way harder for nations outside of cast1 to develop.

The only hope is France and you know what: the historic win over Romania six players playing in France (4 started to play rugby in Germany) where in the starting line-up + 2 German development and France playing guys were on the bench.
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 14:51, edited 1 time in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby dropkick » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 13:43

Gnadental wrote:All parties need to stop bickering and get on with a medium and long term plan for the Elite game in Germany. There are some cracking players in the youth system some of whom will go to other unions if no pathway is open to them that develops their game. I use as an example Jack Hunt European U18s 7s Player of the Tournament. 13 tries in 6 matches including a win against the holders and subsequently European Champions 2017, Ireland. Through parentage he has been offered a place in the Munster Rugby Academy. How can Germany retain such talent if there is no, or very limited, development and match opportunities? U20s are a disaster with no structure to bring U18 on or develop the older lads. In the absence of quality club or university rugby the National Squad training needs to take place at least monthly with training games every six weeks.

There must be a means to get German eligible players into second tier clubs in France and the UK. Who in the DRV/ Wild system could push this?

Dr Wild has the means to develop several players in his Stade Francais Academy but as yet there are no German players there that I am aware of.

Gnadental



Where did you hear that about the Munster academy. He seems a bit young but maybe he is in the sub academy. I checked on munsterfans and saw that he is from Limerick originally and going to school in Rockwell college.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Gnadental » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 15:18

His parents run a business in Essen where he attended an international school. For his A Level education he has moved to Ireland to attend 6th Form, lower 6th. Yes he is young with another year still at U18. The academy system runs at several levels, usually Elite Player Development (EPD) up to 16, Junior Academy up to 18 then Senior Academy over 18 to 21ish. Any help?

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Re: German rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 15:41

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Tobar wrote:I would also imagine that Wild, as a major donor, was disappointed with the way that DRV was handling the progression of rugby and stepped in. I don't think it's a matter of him feeling entitled as an investor but rather that he felt the DRV wasn't doing anything and the academy was the only thing giving them a chance. I would be pretty unhappy if I cared about the sport and invested in it and saw the national union squander that investment/donation.


So where did the DRV squander anything? The DRV made a huge (and I mean huge) step forward in EVERY single regard in the last 2 years. Be it the national teams, organization, etc. Yes Wild had a huge involvement in it, but I don't know or have ever heard of a single thing the DRV squandered.


Sorry, I'm not very knowledgeable about German rugby and wasn't passing judgement but from everything I've heard the entire German High Performance was run through WRA. Overall the German rugby team has improved tremendously but how much of that was from the DRV specifically? What I am suggesting is that maybe Wild feels the DRV didn't really contribute much and take advantage of the fact that there was an academy. Instead, the Union could have just touted their success in building rugby but not really do anything extra.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. Do you know of any specific initiatives that the DRV has done to build rugby in the country? FWIW I am equally critical of USA Rugby's similar issues but give credit to them for certain growth initiatives.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Gnadental » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 16:00

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Gnadental wrote:How can Germany retain such talent if there is no, or very limited, development and match opportunities? U20s are a disaster with no structure to bring U18 on or develop the older lads. In the absence of quality club or university rugby the National Squad training needs to take place at least monthly with training games every six weeks.


To be fair: for this exact point only England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Italy are to blame. They left the European 15s U18 Championship on full purpose after Ireland and Scotland finished 7/8 and 8/8 behind Georgia and Portugal. Those Shame Nations and Italy are to blame that other nation's kids don't get the opportunity they deserve. As long as they behave like little lords who don't want to play with the peasants you can do whatever you want, but you will never have any meaningful development ways in other Euro Nations. This is what you get when your sport has a cast system like rugby. It is way harder for nations outside of cast1 to develop.

The only hope is France and you know what: the historic win over Romania six players playing in France (4 started to play rugby in Germany) where in the starting line-up + 2 German development and France playing guys were on the bench.


It is indeed shameful that the Home Nations have pulled out of the U18 European Championships but even if they were playing, taking a German team with the limitations I covered above might not be helpful to the boys development and could possibly do more harm than good. I struggle to see how a German U18 team who have not played regularly as a team, against good opposition, would not take a severe thrashing from Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England. I don't see that as development. Regularly playing marginally better teams than ourselves, with training sessions in between, moves the team standard upwards. But you must have regular games as drills and dry training are not enough. At the European U18 7s the Israeli team took a thrashing against Wales 81 - 0 in 14 minutes!!, the boys body language spoke volumes as to the value of the exercise for both teams. The Welsh stops congratulating each other after scores because the match was so uneven. Granted that was extreme and Germany are better than that, but don't put your boys into that position.

Of the lads who have graduated out of the U18s this year, to my knowledge, one has attended some xv senior rugby camps, and five attended the pre camp for the Dubai 7s but didn't go any further. Contrast that to England who, despite vastly greater numbers of player, already are bring several 18/ 19 year olds into the senior training camps, "apprentices" so called. Marcus Smith already on a £230,000 year contract with Harlequins!! He has been exposed to top class rugby all season due to injuries in Harlequins team and risen to the challenge. How are Germany challenging their stars of the future? Hence my comments about Stade Francais Academy.

I laud the senior teams performance against Romania but having watched Romania's match against Georgia, which they won, I might cautiously suggest that the Romanians though the Germany match would be a walk over and got caught knapping. Fair play, you can only play what is before you. I am willing to bet a Euro that the next meeting will yield a different result. Hopefully I pay you!

None of the above changes my thoughts that the development of the youth teams couldn't be better, particularly and importantly at U20 level. These are the senior players in waiting and they are being neglected. In my view.

Over to you.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 16:27

Tobar wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong here. Do you know of any specific initiatives that the DRV has done to build rugby in the country? FWIW I am equally critical of USA Rugby's similar issues but give credit to them for certain growth initiatives.


You need to see this in perspective where the DRV comes from. A 2,5 employee federation. Including a more or less part-time coach.
- The first time in history rugby gets significant state-money.
- The first time in history rugby gets significant money from World Rugby
- we have 10 sport soldiers (aka pro-players paid by the state).
- Rugby does have a global sponsor with DHL
- we have not one but two high-performance programs.
- we do have one of the most modern coaching curse systems which started this year. And was honored by the German Olympic Sports Federation (DOSB)
http://www.dosb.de/de/tablet/sportentwi ... rstuetzen/
- the 7s program which is without a doubt DRV run, missed the WRSS by one converted try.

Off course some achievements had help from the WRA, but that's what sponsors do, provide money to create opportunities.

- Nobody ever questioned the WRA being a great sponsor in German rugby and off course they did and do a lot to grow rugby in Germany. They do a great job.
I am in no regard against the normal activities of the WRA. They are great and I've always been a fan of their work.

But one thing is being a sponsor, one is being a federation. A federation is not a company. You have to be way more careful to pull strings and money won't help with a all things. And a federation needs a setup which survives even if a sponsor pulls out. And they have a setup which, as we see, holds up if that is the case. Wild is 76 years old. Hopefully he makes at least a century out of it, but what if not? We simply can't handover our whole federation to a sponsor (if we could by law and World Rugby, which we both can't) even if that means a set-back.

The main problem is the DRV and the WRA are doing a great job atm. Apart from this stupid fight, where I after a long time of thinking about it, have to blame the WRA for. And yes, this sucks.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 16:37

RugbyLiebe wrote:Maybe you don't know why the DRV was about to be bankrupt. It was because government funding didn't arrive as planned. I'm quite sure such amateur assumptions of payments the former DRV-president assumed, are a thing of the past today. Yeah, having a big donor/sponsor does help.

The DRV-president Klaus Blank is not a silent owner in the Oktoberfest 7s. DRV-sport director Manuel Wilhelm is. Various of my very different sources say Wild wasn't interested himself in being part of the Oktoberfest 7s. Saying Wilhelm, a XV national player up until 2013ish doesn't support XV is a joke. He is the founder of totalrugby.de behind most media relations, etc. etc.


Ah, so it's not even a secret. I knew it was one of the two, I just couldn't find it. Either way, that's a legit problem. Where's the government funding for XVs? Oh yeah, just happening now.

And the part about government funding is a bit weird to me as our OC is fully commercialized and we're on the brink of bankruptcy with our Union for the Nth time.

It's very easy to see why Wild wants a return on his investment of some kind. It's the DRV's responsibility to commercialize and generate Revenue. 7s doesn't pay anyone's bills except for a tournament promoter, 7s is a loss leader for every top flight nation in World Rugby.
Last edited by TheStroBro on Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 16:59, edited 1 time in total.

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