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German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Fri, 23 Feb 2018, 18:12

Armchair Fan wrote:Castres says Tussac has been declared unfit to play rugby, but we've already seen in other cases it's only applicable in France. Is he returning to Germany or will he try to find place in a different league?
https://twitter.com/CastresRugby/status ... 1074945024

Is it another huge mistake from German staff ?

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Re: German rugby

Postby CM » Fri, 23 Feb 2018, 18:31

Tussac never played in Germany, right? He has a German grandparent so far as I know.

My French is horrible, but it sounds like the problem is his back? Anyway good luck and good health to him.

And I don't think we can call a career ending injury a "miscalculation". No-one can calculate such a thing.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 23 Feb 2018, 18:37

The thing is we've seen other players being declared unfit to play pro rugby in France and play abroad without much issues. There are some in England and here in Spain too. That's why he may consider going to Germany unless the extent of his injuries is too much to continue.
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Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Fri, 23 Feb 2018, 19:23

CM wrote:Tussac never played in Germany, right? He has a German grandparent so far as I know.

My French is horrible, but it sounds like the problem is his back? Anyway good luck and good health to him.

What's the point about he never played in Germany ?
He's got a problem with cervical vertebra.

And I don't think we can call a career ending injury a "miscalculation". No-one can calculate such a thing.

Because you think the news just came today ? Are you a troll ? :roll:
This clearly shows the staff has no idea about the players they call. It seems they play poker with every squad. "Let's show everyone is coming, so some of them will really come"...

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 23 Feb 2018, 19:47

Steve Thompson, England's RWC winning hooker, had to "retire" from Brive with a neck injury but came back to England and carried on for years. Juan Figallo the current Saracens prop had the same thing. I think Cazannane who lost an eye could not play in France so had to go to Italy.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 23 Feb 2018, 23:22

olivier wrote:
CM wrote:Tussac never played in Germany, right? He has a German grandparent so far as I know.

My French is horrible, but it sounds like the problem is his back? Anyway good luck and good health to him.

What's the point about he never played in Germany ?
He's got a problem with cervical vertebra.

And I don't think we can call a career ending injury a "miscalculation". No-one can calculate such a thing.

Because you think the news just came today ? Are you a troll ? :roll:
This clearly shows the staff has no idea about the players they call. It seems they play poker with every squad. "Let's show everyone is coming, so some of them will really come"...


Well apparently they were in close enough contact to know that his brother has recently died (see page 52 in this thread) and that he planned to be available for the Belgium game. His last game was end of january for Castres Then his brother apparently died and now he he was told that he can't play rugby any more.
Unbelievable how unlucky one guy can be.
Unbelievable how cynic you are, Olivier.

All the best for Tussac, thanks for the great games he played for Germany. Will never forget his smile after the victory over Romania.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Sat, 24 Feb 2018, 13:28

How could DRV publish a squad with him if they were so close to him... Why did they put his name ?

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Re: German rugby

Postby Boudewijn Vertonghen » Wed, 28 Feb 2018, 18:04

unrankedarmenia wrote:66-19 to Munster Dev XV.

Thank you for the information. No one wrote an article about that match in the Internet after it was finished.

So Munster Dev. XV won. Do you know which Players played for the German team und who scored? Can you tell me something about that game?

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 11:58

Tussac knows he could still play in England or even Germany but says his priority are his family and his health:
https://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/top-14/2 ... tory.shtml
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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 12:28

olivier wrote:How could DRV publish a squad with him if they were so close to him... Why did they put his name ?


Stop being such a drama boy and read the interview Armchair posted. Should be in your language.

So it was a regular medical check, without him having any injury before. Out of the blue for him. But no, the DRV is the one to blame.

And no they didn't publish a squad. They published the nomination. Which is at tier1 level, the guys playing. At t2+3 level it's the guys they want to play, but in nearly every single t2+t3 nation they won't get all of them, some because the clubs don't release them, some because of injuries occuring in between. And with the whole fight going on, this is even tougher than normally. End of story, but stop creating so much drama on it, put the energy in your club or whatever good you want to do for rugby in germany.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby thomas.lutz. » Sat, 03 Mar 2018, 18:10

This is my first post.

RugbyLiebe is so much pro DRV that it is just not okay to not have an antipole. German rugby lies in tatters and People like RugbyLiebe and mulu are dancing on its grave and putting on a show, telling people that everything will be all right in the end. This defeat showed what these people have done to German Rugby: 68-15 against BELGIUM! BELGIUM! 90% of what they say is total BS. And let's think a few steps further: Clearly someone told WR that it will be all right, the WILD guys will play at the ENC, so WR took the Money and effort and brought in Lemoine (who is a great Coach) and others to buy DRV time and don't get relegated. By the way: The whole WR is anti-WILD stuff is pure Imagination and lies, they didn't wanted the players to get punished, this was a huge lie by the DRV. Now: Lemoine and the Coaches are here for the ENC. They will not continue, because there is no talent coming up: No U20 team, no young players in the Next 4-5 years who could play ENC. They will leave definitly, DRV XV will be relegated and WR will not put Money into an Union led by losers. Hong-Kong will be lost because of Ireland (and Maybe Chile), they will go into the Sevens Series. So at the end of the Year the DRV will have
a) DRV XV relegated
b) No international Coaches
c) 7s will still not be in the World Series

At the end of the Year the DRV will have fucked up everything that was created in the past 5 years.

@mulu: Having a big mouth and telling how bad the DRV XV was with WILD like you did hasn't won you anything. The 7s team led by you didn't qualify for Hong Kong, didn't qualify for the Olympic games and didn't helped out the XV team today. Before you Point fingers at how bad others are, maybe you get your stuff done first.

@RugbyLiebe: You should call yourself "DRVLiebe", that maybe would be more accurate. How Can someone look how the Sport is destroyed in ones Country and defend those who fucked up the whole Thing. They knew month before the strike what the Problem was and didn't sorted it out. It's the most sad Moment in recent times, we should focus on not being relegated from the second division.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 03 Mar 2018, 18:15

Calm down. I understand you must be upset at the current state of Germany's XV rugby (I know what's like, Spain was in a similar situation back in 2013), but there's no reason why to attack a decent guy like RugbyLiebe just because he thinks otherwise.

You may be sad to see current results and still think national rugby must be managed by national union.
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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 03 Mar 2018, 19:13

thomas.lutz. wrote:
@RugbyLiebe: You should call yourself "DRVLiebe", that maybe would be more accurate. How Can someone look how the Sport is destroyed in ones Country and defend those who fucked up the whole Thing. They knew month before the strike what the Problem was and didn't sorted it out. It's the most sad Moment in recent times, we should focus on not being relegated from the second division.


First of all, I come from somewhere, where until recently no rugby was played. There is nothing to destroy. And especially not by a Union, which for a very long time didn't make the best impression. But, probably as you are as well, I am a DRV member. That's the federation which organizes rugby in germany. And they bring up arguments why they did things.

So tell me: what the hell was the problem? I bloody still don't know! I am also waiting for months now to read a plan by the WRA.
Nothing. I care for one reason: I love rugby, and I dedicate my spare free time to it. And not only in a forum I enjoy.

If you would have asked me in May I would have without a question supported the WRA. So don't blame me for making my own mind up, as I am not, was never and quite probably will never be involved in the DRV at any level other than club.

This didn't stop me from supporting the HRK in the Qualifier, and this won't stop me from supporting them in the final. I am not on any side. I just don't understand why one side does the things they do.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby CM » Sat, 03 Mar 2018, 22:05

The situation sucks and I am sad and angry. There is only one upside: almost no one in Germany cares or knows. Except for the tiny rugby community.

The sad thing is I do think that both drv and WRA try the wrong way to develop rugby in Germany. The DRV wants to use state money to build a top 7s side the wra wants to focus on a top 15s side. I don't know the infamous dossier, I am not an insider in rugby Germany, but part of the conflict may come from that.

7s is a development trap. The players train full time, have excellent coaches and preparation and in the end they play most of their tournament in front of almost no one. They may have got a shot at Hong Kong or the next Olympics. But no German who doesn't know rugby cares about the world series, and the Olympics last for a week, and are forgotten after the next week. Stopping the 7s guys from playing for the national 15s side, but letting them play 15s for their club is almost criminally stupid.

But the WRA way is not better. Getting a good 15s side together, letting them train full time makes the rugby community happy, but almost no one outside notices. The hrk has what 300? 500? Visitors watching them beat an Italian first division team. That's nothing.
The players only get challenged a few times a year and everyone sit comfy in the villa in heidelberg and is happy, that pros are beating up amateurs in the bundesliga. What's the point? Reaching the world cup would get the media interested... for about a month. And if you see Germany in the world cup and want to play rugby, but wither there is no rugby club in your neighbourhood, or just a few guys without a real coach or whatever? It doesn't do much for German rugby.

Let is please stop the vanity projects and let us try to grow the grassroots! The top national side is the cherry on top, but we are missing the pie!

Enough ranting for today.

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Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Sat, 03 Mar 2018, 22:48

CM wrote:The situation sucks and I am sad and angry. There is only one upside: almost no one in Germany cares or knows. Except for the tiny rugby community.

The sad thing is I do think that both drv and WRA try the wrong way to develop rugby in Germany. The DRV wants to use state money to build a top 7s side the wra wants to focus on a top 15s side. I don't know the infamous dossier, I am not an insider in rugby Germany, but part of the conflict may come from that.
7s is a development trap. The players train full time, have excellent coaches and preparation and in the end they play most of their tournament in front of almost no one. They may have got a shot at Hong Kong or the next Olympics. But no German who doesn't know rugby cares about the world series, and the Olympics last for a week, and are forgotten after the next week. Stopping the 7s guys from playing for the national 15s side, but letting them play 15s for their club is almost criminally stupid.

Alright on this point. But most of it, Germany will never go to the Olympic tournament that will stay at 12 teams forever.
But the WRA way is not better. Getting a good 15s side together, letting them train full time makes the rugby community happy, but almost no one outside notices. The hrk has what 300? 500? Visitors watching them beat an Italian first division team. That's nothing.
The players only get challenged a few times a year and everyone sit comfy in the villa in heidelberg and is happy, that pros are beating up amateurs in the bundesliga. What's the point? Reaching the world cup would get the media interested... for about a month. And if you see Germany in the world cup and want to play rugby, but wither there is no rugby club in your neighbourhood, or just a few guys without a real coach or whatever? It doesn't do much for German rugby.

Let is please stop the vanity projects and let us try to grow the grassroots! The top national side is the cherry on top, but we are missing the pie!

Enough ranting for today.

You understand nothing to non-traditional nations growing problem... They need exposure !!!! Spain understood this.
Saying Germany at the RWC won't change anything is a complete absurdity. Did you know Germany already have an excellent club distribution ??? Clubs are waiting for children !

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 03 Mar 2018, 23:53

olivier wrote: Did you know Germany already have an excellent club distribution ??? Clubs are waiting for children !


But waiting for kids doesn't help. We need to actively get them. And that's a huge problem in the German rugby community. To be content with just a handful expat kids, when the masses of the rest don't know a thing about rugby.
There's where you can create huge growing rates, especially when you already have a great base with said expat kids. And from my first hand experience it works and you don't need ressources for it. Just pure will and consistency and without a doubt some luck off course ;-)

If you have ressources 1880 is the club to copy atm. If not probably a closer look at Heusenstamm could help. Maybe even the Berlin clubs RK03 and RC.

Plus we need way more clubs. Distribution is not good, if from Freiburg the next German club is 100km away. Or if there are only 7 clubs who not all have kids in every age class around a city like Munich.

A world cup participation can give an additional boost, but it won't give you the masses you hope for.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 04 Mar 2018, 00:14

olivier wrote:You understand nothing to non-traditional nations growing problem... They need exposure !!!! Spain understood this.
Saying Germany at the RWC won't change anything is a complete absurdity. Did you know Germany already have an excellent club distribution ??? Clubs are waiting for children !

But don't forget something, Olivier. Spain understood this but exposure didn't come from RWC. Local clubs made a good product (2016 Spanish Cup) who opened newspapers and TV shows even abroad, foreign leagues brought finals (Top 14 in 2016, EPCR in 2018) and Sevens reached the Olympics when we thought everything was over for both men and women. In fact the biggest TV exposure in these last three years was given by women's quarterfinal against Australia: 1.5 million viewers in prime time!

There isn't a single way. I don't know what Germany must do, but reaching RWC isn't the only answer, we did that back in 1999 and didn't work.
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Re: German rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 04 Mar 2018, 03:21

Well, the only hope for Germany now is the playoff in May. But even if they survive that and remain in the REC the situation in the country is a mess and needs to be fixed immediately. A nation shouldn't go from defeating the second best team in the competition to being smashed by the lowest ranked team in the tournament in the space of 12 months. It's unacceptable. First thing monday there needs to be a meeting between all the parties involved with German rugby, including Wild, and all the issues need to be put on the table, the national team, the domestic leagues, the club playing in Europe, on field performances, the grass roots, kids participation, media coverage, attendance etc, everything needs to put out to be fixed.

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Re: German rugby

Postby germanbullsfan » Sun, 04 Mar 2018, 07:35

thatrugbyguy wrote:Well, the only hope for Germany now is the playoff in May. But even if they survive that and remain in the REC the situation in the country is a mess and needs to be fixed immediately. A nation shouldn't go from defeating the second best team in the competition to being smashed by the lowest ranked team in the tournament in the space of 12 months. It's unacceptable. First thing monday there needs to be a meeting between all the parties involved with German rugby, including Wild, and all the issues need to be put on the table, the national team, the domestic leagues, the club playing in Europe, on field performances, the grass roots, kids participation, media coverage, attendance etc, everything needs to put out to be fixed.



This does not happen, therefore the breach is already to big. And its geting political . On the one hand the DRV with his romantic naive socialdemocratic approach to the thing and on the other hand the modern marketliberal professional orientated approach to the course. The reality showed that professional model delivered the right results sportswise and media commercialwise and the other part just wanted participating for free from other peoples money!

As i said months ago lets split the dutys to the 2 different camps , lets play and develop the Sevens under the DRVs regime withe public money and let run the male and female XV under a professional private managed label (How this label will be constructed is worth another thread to discuss)

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Re: German rugby

Postby CM » Sun, 04 Mar 2018, 10:07

olivier wrote:
But the WRA way is not better. Getting a good 15s side together, letting them train full time makes the rugby community happy, but almost no one outside notices. The hrk has what 300? 500? Visitors watching them beat an Italian first division team. That's nothing.
The players only get challenged a few times a year and everyone sit comfy in the villa in heidelberg and is happy, that pros are beating up amateurs in the bundesliga. What's the point? Reaching the world cup would get the media interested... for about a month. And if you see Germany in the world cup and want to play rugby, but wither there is no rugby club in your neighbourhood, or just a few guys without a real coach or whatever? It doesn't do much for German rugby.

Let is please stop the vanity projects and let us try to grow the grassroots! The top national side is the cherry on top, but we are missing the pie!

Enough ranting for today.

You understand nothing to non-traditional nations growing problem... They need exposure !!!! Spain understood this.
Saying Germany at the RWC won't change anything is a complete absurdity. Did you know Germany already have an excellent club distribution ??? Clubs are waiting for children !


Stop kidding yourself. We would get a bit exposure for a month, almost no kid would try to become a German rugby super star afterwards. The media doesn't cover success, they cover what people are actually interested in. Most articles would be of "look what funny people" kind. We have to grow the rugby community first.

And no the german club system is not "excellently distributed". It is tiny, concentrated in some areas and mostly not prepared to have a youth system. We have about 130 clubs for 82 million people. So 1 club for 620k people. That's way worse than Belgium, 1 club for 190k people, or Spain, 1 club for 210k people.
And let's be honest, most clubs consist mainly of students and expand, and both groups tend to be a bit self-segregating. They hardly know parents. Without no parents, no children. And what kind of parent would drive more than 15km to get their kids to sport?

But the clubs who don't wait for children, but go and get em tend to be succesfull after a while ( which can be quite long). But even then, to have the kids play a game or a tournament most clubs have to drive, what 100km? That's way too much.

We're far away from being ready for a world cup organizationally.

That only now a club tries to found itself in the Mannheim area is maybe the worst example. The centre of German rugby is just round There And no one brings rugby into the next big city around? That's so poor.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 04 Mar 2018, 10:44

CM wrote:And no the german club system is not "excellently distributed". It is tiny, concentrated in some areas and mostly not prepared to have a youth system. We have about 130 clubs for 82 million people. So 1 club for 620k people. That's way worse than Belgium, 1 club for 190k people, or Spain, 1 club for 210k people.

Spain, it was one club for 165k at least in 2016 ;)
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Re: German rugby

Postby CM » Sun, 04 Mar 2018, 10:52

Armchair Fan wrote:
CM wrote:And no the german club system is not "excellently distributed". It is tiny, concentrated in some areas and mostly not prepared to have a youth system. We have about 130 clubs for 82 million people. So 1 club for 620k people. That's way worse than Belgium, 1 club for 190k people, or Spain, 1 club for 210k people.

Spain, it was one club for 165k at least in 2016 ;)


Wikipedia numbers.... probably really old, but the best numbers I had. I wasn't willing too look into it even deeper.
Sorry spain is better than I implied.

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Re: German rugby

Postby DragonMike » Sun, 04 Mar 2018, 12:22

germanbullsfan wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Well, the only hope for Germany now is the playoff in May. But even if they survive that and remain in the REC the situation in the country is a mess and needs to be fixed immediately. A nation shouldn't go from defeating the second best team in the competition to being smashed by the lowest ranked team in the tournament in the space of 12 months. It's unacceptable. First thing monday there needs to be a meeting between all the parties involved with German rugby, including Wild, and all the issues need to be put on the table, the national team, the domestic leagues, the club playing in Europe, on field performances, the grass roots, kids participation, media coverage, attendance etc, everything needs to put out to be fixed.



This does not happen, therefore the breach is already to big. And its geting political . On the one hand the DRV with his romantic naive socialdemocratic approach to the thing and on the other hand the modern marketliberal professional orientated approach to the course. The reality showed that professional model delivered the right results sportswise and media commercialwise and the other part just wanted participating for free from other peoples money!

As i said months ago lets split the dutys to the 2 different camps , lets play and develop the Sevens under the DRVs regime withe public money and let run the male and female XV under a professional private managed label (How this label will be constructed is worth another thread to discuss)


But the wra have run the national team for what, 5 years? And as soon as they take their players away it is clear an 'amateur' bundesliga team is probably weaker than when they started. So what has it really brought? A bit of attention, yes, but no structural improvements or strong foundations. They first started going out into the regions to set up selection and development structures only last season. I appreciate what they want to do with a professional playing environment and the media, but they didn't create consensus or support in the rugby community, or underlying foundations for the future, and and if wild pulls out in a few years hrk will be playing 2nd Division rugby again not long after, and nothing will remain of what they built but a roofed over training pitch....

The succes stories in recent years - menzel, hilsenbeck, nostadt, vollenkemper, marks, füchsel, the 7s guys etc. All come from handschuhsheim, aachen, germania, hannover 78, wiedenbrùck, rgh, heusenstamm, berlin, and lately sc1880 etc. who do the basics in youth work right. The 7s on the other hand has massively improved local players, who remained in their clubs. Their are local training groups to some extent in hannover and berlin. These are real improvements, built on somewhat sustainable finances. If the 7s team becomes weaker, that wont disappear overnight.

So in summary, i think we shouldn't kid ourselves. If the wra put a candidate in at the drt and win, and somehow germany survive in rec 1, everything is not rosy. It is just pushing the issue further sown the road.

Much easier idea - go back to the old pyramid leagues with 8 teams, and dont let any team play bundesliga who doesnt have a team in every age group. Then all the drv has to concentrate on is performance centres.

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Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Sun, 04 Mar 2018, 13:34

germanbullsfan wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Well, the only hope for Germany now is the playoff in May. But even if they survive that and remain in the REC the situation in the country is a mess and needs to be fixed immediately. A nation shouldn't go from defeating the second best team in the competition to being smashed by the lowest ranked team in the tournament in the space of 12 months. It's unacceptable. First thing monday there needs to be a meeting between all the parties involved with German rugby, including Wild, and all the issues need to be put on the table, the national team, the domestic leagues, the club playing in Europe, on field performances, the grass roots, kids participation, media coverage, attendance etc, everything needs to put out to be fixed.



This does not happen, therefore the breach is already to big. And its geting political . On the one hand the DRV with his romantic naive socialdemocratic approach to the thing and on the other hand the modern marketliberal professional orientated approach to the course. The reality showed that professional model delivered the right results sportswise and media commercialwise and the other part just wanted participating for free from other peoples money!

As i said months ago lets split the dutys to the 2 different camps , lets play and develop the Sevens under the DRVs regime withe public money and let run the male and female XV under a professional private managed label (How this label will be constructed is worth another thread to discuss)

Only one German seems to understand... Germany will definitely return to nowhere.

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Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Sun, 04 Mar 2018, 13:37

thomas.lutz. wrote:This is my first post.

RugbyLiebe is so much pro DRV that it is just not okay to not have an antipole. German rugby lies in tatters and People like RugbyLiebe and mulu are dancing on its grave and putting on a show, telling people that everything will be all right in the end. This defeat showed what these people have done to German Rugby: 68-15 against BELGIUM! BELGIUM! 90% of what they say is total BS. And let's think a few steps further: Clearly someone told WR that it will be all right, the WILD guys will play at the ENC, so WR took the Money and effort and brought in Lemoine (who is a great Coach) and others to buy DRV time and don't get relegated. By the way: The whole WR is anti-WILD stuff is pure Imagination and lies, they didn't wanted the players to get punished, this was a huge lie by the DRV. Now: Lemoine and the Coaches are here for the ENC. They will not continue, because there is no talent coming up: No U20 team, no young players in the Next 4-5 years who could play ENC. They will leave definitly, DRV XV will be relegated and WR will not put Money into an Union led by losers. Hong-Kong will be lost because of Ireland (and Maybe Chile), they will go into the Sevens Series. So at the end of the Year the DRV will have
a) DRV XV relegated
b) No international Coaches
c) 7s will still not be in the World Series

At the end of the Year the DRV will have fucked up everything that was created in the past 5 years.

@mulu: Having a big mouth and telling how bad the DRV XV was with WILD like you did hasn't won you anything. The 7s team led by you didn't qualify for Hong Kong, didn't qualify for the Olympic games and didn't helped out the XV team today. Before you Point fingers at how bad others are, maybe you get your stuff done first.

@RugbyLiebe: You should call yourself "DRVLiebe", that maybe would be more accurate. How Can someone look how the Sport is destroyed in ones Country and defend those who fucked up the whole Thing. They knew month before the strike what the Problem was and didn't sorted it out. It's the most sad Moment in recent times, we should focus on not being relegated from the second division.

Him too.

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