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German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 31 May 2018, 18:48

Good question.
This might be the end of the WRA and all of Wild's investments in German rugby. It is pointless now.
On the other hand I would be surprised if now we wouldn't see the Wild players against Portugal.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Zhenya_Zima » Thu, 31 May 2018, 21:45

This is is absolutely ridiculous and monumentally sucks ass. If it's such a big deal, just keep them apart in the group stages. Total BS.

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Re: German rugby

Postby suofficer » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 06:39

RugbyLiebe wrote:Good question.
This might be the end of the WRA and all of Wild's investments in German rugby. It is pointless now.
On the other hand I would be surprised if now we wouldn't see the Wild players against Portugal.


Just out of interest why do you think this means they'll feature against Portugal?

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 06:49

suofficer wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Good question.
This might be the end of the WRA and all of Wild's investments in German rugby. It is pointless now.
On the other hand I would be surprised if now we wouldn't see the Wild players against Portugal.


Just out of interest why do you think this means they'll feature against Portugal?


First of all, this is a wild guess (harharhar). I have no idea what the status is.
Now that the HRK isn't allowed to play in the Challenge Cup, what is the point to keep a "nearly pro"-setup up for Wild?
They win the German championship without a problem and without true challenge. They qualified for the Challenge Cup. Thanks to the idiots from EPCR they've reached the biggest goal possible for a team sponsored by him in this very year.

Why should he bother anymore? So why not allow the contracted players to play for the DRV again and for a miraclous World Cup qualification?
Maybe that's the last weeks they play in a pro-setup.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby STMKY » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 06:52

CM wrote:Or even entering some Russian league and playing against teams no one of their fans cares about?


I think that Heidelberger needs to join the Russian and Georgian unions to become one of the founders of the new international pro league, which is expected to start in 2020. You do not have good rivals in Germany, no one is waiting for you in PRO14. But there is a very interesting project of a full-fledged pro league, where sponsors will pay for transportation and accommodation. Romanian and Italian clubs should also be interesting for this pro league.

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Re: German rugby

Postby suofficer » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 06:59

RugbyLiebe wrote:
suofficer wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Good question.
This might be the end of the WRA and all of Wild's investments in German rugby. It is pointless now.
On the other hand I would be surprised if now we wouldn't see the Wild players against Portugal.


Just out of interest why do you think this means they'll feature against Portugal?


First of all, this is a wild guess (harharhar). I have no idea what the status is.
Now that the HRK isn't allowed to play in the Challenge Cup, what is the point to keep a "nearly pro"-setup up for Wild?
They win the German championship without a problem and without true challenge. They qualified for the Challenge Cup. Thanks to the idiots from EPCR they've reached the biggest goal possible for a team sponsored by him in this very year.

Why should he bother anymore? So why not allow the contracted players to play for the DRV again and for a miraclous World Cup qualification?
Maybe that's the last weeks they play in a pro-setup.


You're forgetting the potential for any more wild cards ( ;) ) from those in charge. But yes what you say makes sense.

I only ask because from what i can see not many of Portugal's Top14 guys have put their hand up for selection. Or none that I know about yet. So at home with Wild players involved , the odds look to be in Germany's favor.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 07:33

suofficer wrote:I only ask because from what i can see not many of Portugal's Top14 guys have put their hand up for selection. Or none that I know about yet. So at home with Wild players involved , the odds look to be in Germany's favor.


If the Wild players will play, I have no doubts about a German win. Only problem could be the front row as Tussac ended his career and Füchsel is injured and won't play again in 2018, but that's not exactly Portugal's strength as well, if I remember right. They are also absolutely in practice, as the German season finishes this weekend and I doubt anyone was burned out by this season at all.

If the Wild players won't play, we all know the result, though I expect it to be not an exact whitewash, as I think the French legionaires should be there.

Nr. 9 Menzel and Nr. 10 Hilsenbeck have been both playing for Vannes in the ProD2 together this year so they should be a good combination.
Hilsenbeck played in 25 matches (out of 30) https://www.allrugby.com/joueurs/christ ... -1679.html
Menzel in 6 (out of 8) matches since moving there and was always at least on the bench https://www.allrugby.com/joueurs/tim-menzel-1992.html
Prop Julius Nostadt finished the season as a starter for Aurillac also in the ProD2 https://www.allrugby.com/joueurs/julius ... -5812.html

But tbh this is all just speculation, after the most catastrophic and devastating year for German rugby possible.
Missed the 7s World Series, by one stupid try, Civil war, HRK not in the Challenge Cup., Oktoberfest 7s postphoned for 2018.

We will see what else can happen until the year ends. Probably the Oktoberfest 7s are not becoming a World Series tournament and today we will see one team di-disqualified and therefore the end of the RWC-campaign :D

And the same team playing as in the REC wouldn't be a surprise after everything what happened since November 2017.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby suofficer » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 08:00

without speculation we are no where on this forum!

From France we would be hoping for Bardy at Montpellier, Tadjer and Marques from Brive , Bittencourt from Carcassone and I think thats about it? Unless I am missing anyone major? Lima from Oyonaxx seems to be on some exchange trip in NZ and Esteves at Tarbes is just not a XV player. If Seb De Chaves makes himself available from London Irish then we have a formidable pack. Backs we have enough of. But they won't be scoring any wonder tries without the ball.

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Re: German rugby

Postby rey200 » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 08:06

well it's really sad that german rugby won't get that extra attention. although I doubt it would have changed anything.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 08:41

rey200 wrote:well it's really sad that german rugby won't get that extra attention. although I doubt it would have changed anything.


I think you are right and maybe it wouldn't have changed much, BUT what it does is destroy a lot now.
I think it is more devastating that after 170 years of rugby in Germany there still wasn't a game in an official competition between a German XVs senior side against any team from the Home Nations. And then a German side qualifies for the Challenge Cup after years of hard work (and a lot of money spent) and gets disqualified before the first game. Who should try again to qualify? This basically killed every investment in rugby in Germany for a very long time.
Who wins from this? Everybody involved is a loser. Starting with the EPCR, rugby in Europe, the German club etc. Thanks a lot.

It is devastating that once again it shows, that rugby is the most unfair sport on the planet when it comes to administration.

Every other sport would have assisted the smaller nations to grow. Rugby doesn't care, rugby admins spit on everyone smaller than them. We saw it with Spain and Romania in the RWCQ (a good sports administration would have stopped a non-eligible player playing after one game or way before that), we always see it with Georgia in youth rugby. We see it bloody everywhere.
And this is shocking every time I see it. Especially because on the pitch rugby is such a great sport.

And on a really personal note: why bother? why do I spend so many hours successfully growing an amateur club and its youth section and promoting the sport, when all they will get in the future is a big middle finger. Maybe they should go to ice-hockey, handball or even soccer instead.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 09:28

RugbyLiebe wrote:
rey200 wrote:well it's really sad that german rugby won't get that extra attention. although I doubt it would have changed anything.


I think you are right and maybe it wouldn't have changed much, BUT what it does is destroy a lot now.
I think it is more devastating that after 170 years of rugby in Germany there still wasn't a game in an official competition between a German XVs senior side against any team from the Home Nations. And then a German side qualifies for the Challenge Cup after years of hard work (and a lot of money spent) and gets disqualified before the first game. Who should try again to qualify? This basically killed every investment in rugby in Germany for a very long time.
Who wins from this? Everybody involved is a loser. Starting with the EPCR, rugby in Europe, the German club etc. Thanks a lot.

It is devastating that once again it shows, that rugby is the most unfair sport on the planet when it comes to administration.

Every other sport would have assisted the smaller nations to grow. Rugby doesn't care, rugby admins spit on everyone smaller than them. We saw it with Spain and Romania in the RWCQ (a good sports administration would have stopped a non-eligible player playing after one game or way before that), we always see it with Georgia in youth rugby. We see it bloody everywhere.
And this is shocking every time I see it. Especially because on the pitch rugby is such a great sport.

And on a really personal note: why bother? why do I spend so many hours successfully growing an amateur club and its youth section and promoting the sport, when all they will get in the future is a big middle finger. Maybe they should go to ice-hockey, handball or even soccer instead.


With regards to being the least fair sport, cricket has slashed the World Cup so that the bigger nations can't lose to minnows, and absolutely destroyed all the development funding, at least WR is completely independent and has the funds to grow the game.

Personally I'd be shocked if this ruling holds up, give it a year of two and EPCR will allow the two in the same way that the two red bulls are okay in football. Rugby as a whole has an awful lot of inertia, but things are changing. Georgia will be hosting Scotland for the first ever time next year, and the new post RWC schedule has a massively improved number of T1vT2/3 tests, in addition to that the already good development progress should be turbo-charged after 2023 given the vast (and I do mean vast) WR revenues from the WC. There will be bumps on the way.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 09:32

The worst thing is the message sent out there. Rugby welcomes wealthy businessmen from Tier 2 and Tier 3 countries but only if they put their money into Tier 1 teams. There is no point in investing in Tier 2 or 3 as they will always find any roadblock.

I begin to see reasonable why Spanish clubs don't play in Continental Shield. What's the point?

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Re: German rugby

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 09:40

Armchair Fan wrote:The worst thing is the message sent out there. Rugby welcomes wealthy businessmen from Tier 2 and Tier 3 countries but only if they put their money into Tier 1 teams. There is no point in investing in Tier 2 or 3 as they will always find any roadblock.

I begin to see reasonable why Spanish clubs don't play in Continental Shield. What's the point?


If HPW hadn't bought Stade then there would have been no issue.

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Re: German rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 09:44

How is any of this fair when the Irish teams are all owned by the same organisation? Or why wasn't Dr Wild given the choice as to which club was taken out?

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Re: German rugby

Postby Thomas » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 09:50

it strikes me as selected memory of the rules and a shame on the sport...

The Premiership is not lily white either... I agree why Spain doesn't want to participate they may know something ;)

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 09:55

Blurandski wrote:With regards to being the least fair sport, cricket has slashed the World Cup so that the bigger nations can't lose to minnows, and absolutely destroyed all the development funding, at least WR is completely independent and has the funds to grow the game.

Personally I'd be shocked if this ruling holds up, give it a year of two and EPCR will allow the two in the same way that the two red bulls are okay in football. Rugby as a whole has an awful lot of inertia, but things are changing.


Sorry, cricket is such a non-issue outside of the Commonwealth and/or former British Empire, I didn't even think about it.
So another example that sports administrations from the UK are simply as bad and unfair as they can be. Which other sport is administered there?

It won't matter in a year or two. The damage is done. Nobody will try again for the next years to come.

Blurandski wrote:If HPW hadn't bought Stade then there would have been no issue.


If anyone involved in pro-rugby would have the slightest plan for the future growth of rugby or Fingerspitzengefühl (ability to deal with sensitive issues) this would be no issue as well. I mean how many wins did they expect the German team to have? What harm could this team do. They could have set up rules how exactly they want this thing to be dealt in the future etc. Ridiculousy and absolutely unnecessary decision. Maybe even just lazy and stupid.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby amz » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 10:00

RugbyLiebe wrote: I mean how many wins did they expect the German team to have? What harm could this team do. They could have set up rules how exactly they want this thing to be dealt in the future etc. Ridiculousy and absolutely unnecessary decision. Maybe even just lazy and stupid.
:thumbup:

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Re: German rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 10:01

Surely the simplest solution would be to just ensure that both teams aren't placed in the same pool. The odds of both progressing to the Quarter finals would be slim at best, and even if they did meet in a playoff match players aren't going to go easy on the other team no matter what the owner may wish. This isn't soccer for crying out load, the players are brought up in a culture to perform to their best. This is a ridiculous decision and doesn't take into account common sense, or the values of the sport.

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Re: German rugby

Postby armchair_expert » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 10:18

https://theoffsideline.com/heidelberger ... lenge-cup/
A spokesman for EPCR explained last night that the competition rules make a distinction between governing bodies and private individuals owning clubs, based on the assumption that rugby unions do not have day-to-day involvement in the financial running of their subsidiaries whereas that is not as easily established in the case of characters such as Dr Wild.

The spokesman also explained that there is a recognition that clubs such as Edinburgh and Glasgow Warriors, or Munster and Leinster, have long established histories and rivalries which mitigate against their owners being able to ‘influence or to control the management or performance of two clubs in the same competition’.
Badachro Gin

EPCR insist this would not have been an issue if Stade Francais had ended up in the Champions Cup this season, but because they both ended up in the Challenge Cup it was necessary to intervene in order to protect the ‘sporting integrity’ of the competition.

so EPCR regulations are written based on assumption that unions are good guys and private owners are bad guys

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 10:22

Unless they enter Germany as a national team into Challenge Cup, I just hope any club offered that 20th spot will have the courage to decline it.

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Re: German rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 10:23

That makes no sense. Even under union control there are teams that are far more valuable than others. Is someone going to seriously tell me Connacht are a more valuable brand for the IRFU than Munster? You know, the team that famously beat the All Blacks 30 years ago?

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Re: German rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 10:26

On another point, what owner wouldn't want both of their clubs performing well? If they both succeed they generate more money.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Bogdan » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 10:27

Maybe Wilde is not interested in Heidelberger Rugby anymore. I have heard from friend in Deutschland that Akademy will stop because Paris Rugby is very
expensive and Wilde only want one professional team and not two.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 10:35

Bogdan wrote:Maybe Wilde is not interested in Heidelberger Rugby anymore. I have heard from friend in Deutschland that Akademy will stop because Paris Rugby is very
expensive and Wilde only want one professional team and not two.


If I were him I'd run WRA as a youth development academy, with he best going on to play for SF.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Thomas » Fri, 01 Jun 2018, 10:37

Just read the article and it seems to me EPCR are playing double standards, Unions = Good, Owners = are bad guys, we EPCR decide who plays in the sandbox.

You couldn't make this up

https://theoffsideline.com/heidelberger ... lenge-cup/

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