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German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby Raven » Tue, 20 Jun 2017, 08:41

Hope you don´t mind I take your message and answer
RugbyLiebe wrote:It is very simple, you are making it way more complicated tbh.


It might be, but I´m not complaining, it´s just I am honestly confused as I don´t see the logic in it! :?

RugbyLiebe wrote:This is not a rugby scenario at all, but a scenario in every league with more than one league feeding them
Don't understand why you bring up HRK II at all.


I bring them up cause they were the finalists that played Frankfurt II, and furthermore, the team that finished first in the South Group. The Bavarian side of things is pretty clear, Nüremberg doesn´t want to go up, the immediate team offered to do so is Unterföhring. But the 3.Liga Sud & West is made up of 2 groups that then feed 2 separate leagues, one feeded by two provinces and the other by a part of a region, but are then again dependent on one 1. Bundesliga Group...

The 3.Liga S/W play a round robin group home and away calendar, then 1/4 Finals, Semis and Final. Stuttgart was second in their group and then eliminated in quarter finals. If the champion comes from the North group they go up a League straight, but if the champion comes from the South they have to play a Play Off with the Bayern Regionaliga Champions, it´s a maze you have to breakdown before making any assumptions.

I don´t want to over complicate things, but it´s funny that RGH II (HRK II neighbors) won the North group, made it to Semis, and are (I would assume) ineligible to go up cause they play in the North...? Seems weird, that´s all.

RugbyLiebe wrote:Made some Edits here:

Stuttgart who finished 2nd in 3. Liga Southwest group south wants to go up. Unterföhring 2nd from Bayern wants to go up. The teams above have declined. So the regional federations forming the 2. Bundesliga South (= BW and Bavaria) were asked to nominate their best teams willing to go up. Those teams are SRC and RCU.


Then, it´s certain that HRK II has declined promotion?

RugbyLiebe wrote:If Neuenheim stays up there are six of the eight places in the 2. Bundesliga South occupied. So two spare places. Both state union's team are promoted directly.

And if Neuenheim wins, Stuttgart and Unterföhring won't play a playoff, but off course there need to be set dates (1.7 and 8.7.) before.

End of story.


Ok, that I didn´t know, that there was even a chance of them both going up directly, and it seems logical that the dates are set just in case.

RugbyLiebe wrote:2. Bundesliga West never had 8 teams this season so there is also no problem. Not sure if NRW has nominated someone though.


Correct me if I´m wrong, but now RC Luxemburg´s demotion would bring them to the 2. BL West, and Frankfurt II would be promoted to the same league? Making it 8 teams. I made a mistake before by thinking the league would end up with 9 teams, as one would have to be relegated too (TuS 95 Düsseldorf in this case).

Ok, so now with almost every card on the table, my question would be, if there is a Legit champion that doesn´t want to go up, and the alternative is to offer a promotion to a team that didn´t win the league, shouldn´t there at least be a small chance for the side that is to be relegated to play for their spot? I mean, Regensburg isn´t the perfect example as they forfeited games and are also sent down because of that, but if they were last based on results, they might still be more competitive & experienced than the 2nd or third side from the league below...

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Re: German rugby

Postby Neptune » Tue, 20 Jun 2017, 12:26

Raven wrote:Hope you don´t mind I take your message and answer
RugbyLiebe wrote:It is very simple, you are making it way more complicated tbh.


It might be, but I´m not complaining, it´s just I am honestly confused as I don´t see the logic in it! :?

RugbyLiebe wrote:This is not a rugby scenario at all, but a scenario in every league with more than one league feeding them
Don't understand why you bring up HRK II at all.


I bring them up cause they were the finalists that played Frankfurt II, and furthermore, the team that finished first in the South Group. The Bavarian side of things is pretty clear, Nüremberg doesn´t want to go up, the immediate team offered to do so is Unterföhring. But the 3.Liga Sud & West is made up of 2 groups that then feed 2 separate leagues, one feeded by two provinces and the other by a part of a region, but are then again dependent on one 1. Bundesliga Group...

The 3.Liga S/W play a round robin group home and away calendar, then 1/4 Finals, Semis and Final. Stuttgart was second in their group and then eliminated in quarter finals. If the champion comes from the North group they go up a League straight, but if the champion comes from the South they have to play a Play Off with the Bayern Regionaliga Champions, it´s a maze you have to breakdown before making any assumptions.

I don´t want to over complicate things, but it´s funny that RGH II (HRK II neighbors) won the North group, made it to Semis, and are (I would assume) ineligible to go up cause they play in the North...? Seems weird, that´s all.

RugbyLiebe wrote:Made some Edits here:

Stuttgart who finished 2nd in 3. Liga Southwest group south wants to go up. Unterföhring 2nd from Bayern wants to go up. The teams above have declined. So the regional federations forming the 2. Bundesliga South (= BW and Bavaria) were asked to nominate their best teams willing to go up. Those teams are SRC and RCU.


Then, it´s certain that HRK II has declined promotion?

RugbyLiebe wrote:If Neuenheim stays up there are six of the eight places in the 2. Bundesliga South occupied. So two spare places. Both state union's team are promoted directly.

And if Neuenheim wins, Stuttgart and Unterföhring won't play a playoff, but off course there need to be set dates (1.7 and 8.7.) before.

End of story.


Ok, that I didn´t know, that there was even a chance of them both going up directly, and it seems logical that the dates are set just in case.

RugbyLiebe wrote:2. Bundesliga West never had 8 teams this season so there is also no problem. Not sure if NRW has nominated someone though.


Correct me if I´m wrong, but now RC Luxemburg´s demotion would bring them to the 2. BL West, and Frankfurt II would be promoted to the same league? Making it 8 teams. I made a mistake before by thinking the league would end up with 9 teams, as one would have to be relegated too (TuS 95 Düsseldorf in this case).

Ok, so now with almost every card on the table, my question would be, if there is a Legit champion that doesn´t want to go up, and the alternative is to offer a promotion to a team that didn´t win the league, shouldn´t there at least be a small chance for the side that is to be relegated to play for their spot? I mean, Regensburg isn´t the perfect example as they forfeited games and are also sent down because of that, but if they were last based on results, they might still be more competitive & experienced than the 2nd or third side from the league below...


What is the reason behind the league champion refusing to climb up to the next level?

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Re: German rugby

Postby sanitycheck » Tue, 20 Jun 2017, 12:58

Neptune wrote:
Raven wrote:Hope you don´t mind I take your message and answer
RugbyLiebe wrote:
What is the reason behind the league champion refusing to climb up to the next level?



Often its because a team doesnt think they are ready yet, or a club cant handle the financials or distances travelled ... many reasons.
Formerly known as "Aus_in_Germany"

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Re: German rugby

Postby Neptune » Tue, 20 Jun 2017, 13:31

Aus_in_Germany wrote:
Neptune wrote:
Raven wrote:Hope you don´t mind I take your message and answer
RugbyLiebe wrote:
What is the reason behind the league champion refusing to climb up to the next level?



Often its because a team doesnt think they are ready yet, or a club cant handle the financials or distances travelled ... many reasons.


There was a case like that in Kenya, in the Kenyan football premier league. Word has it that they refused to make it to the top tier to avoid scrutiny

and auditing of their financial accounts which comes with playing in the top league, hence they chose to stay in the lower leagues and were paying their players

top dollar.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 20 Jun 2017, 14:58

Raven wrote:Hope you don´t mind I take your message and answer
RugbyLiebe wrote:It is very simple, you are making it way more complicated tbh.


It might be, but I´m not complaining, it´s just I am honestly confused as I don´t see the logic in it! :?


Maybe this view might help you. There are 8 teams in 1. Bundesliga South/West no matter what. If we know this 8 teams we can see how many teams are there in 2. Bundesliga (2BL). If Neuenheim wins there are 6 teams in 2BLS. Regensburg finished last and his relegated. The two feeding unions are Bavaria and BW. They nominated Stuttgart and Unterföhring (lets forget about how those teams got nominated, but you can be 100% sure the regional union asked everyone ahead of them before they officially nominated them). So they fill up the 2BLS to two teams. If there wouldn't be two teams ready to fill up the ranks from the league down, Regensburg could be asked.
Scenario 2BLW: Aachen loses against Neuenheim and stays down. Luxembourg joins them from 1BLSW. Düsseldorf finished last and the last one, no matter if it was in full strength or not faces relegation if there are not enough places for them and one promoted team, if they would have played at full strength TWO teams would go down to bring the league back to 8 teams. If 1880 II goes up we have this exact scenario. Düsseldorf will have to go down if 1880 II (or anyone from West wants to go up). So yeah, you were right about that one, I am from Bavaria so I haven't paid much attention to the West tbh.



Raven wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:This is not a rugby scenario at all, but a scenario in every league with more than one league feeding them
Don't understand why you bring up HRK II at all.


I bring them up cause they were the finalists that played Frankfurt II, and furthermore, the team that finished first in the South Group. The Bavarian side of things is pretty clear, Nüremberg doesn´t want to go up, the immediate team offered to do so is Unterföhring. But the 3.Liga Sud & West is made up of 2 groups that then feed 2 separate leagues, one feeded by two provinces and the other by a part of a region, but are then again dependent on one 1. Bundesliga Group...

The 3.Liga S/W play a round robin group home and away calendar, then 1/4 Finals, Semis and Final. Stuttgart was second in their group and then eliminated in quarter finals. If the champion comes from the North group they go up a League straight, but if the champion comes from the South they have to play a Play Off with the Bayern Regionaliga Champions, it´s a maze you have to breakdown before making any assumptions.

I don´t want to over complicate things, but it´s funny that RGH II (HRK II neighbors) won the North group, made it to Semis, and are (I would assume) ineligible to go up cause they play in the North...? Seems weird, that´s all.


I just asked, because I thought that it was clear that Stuttgart got nominated and this could just happen if everybody ahead of them had declined. It is very hard for second teams to fulfil the licence standards as they basically need to have double of what is necessary as every team counts on its own. Also the can't let their U18-youngster play, while 17-year-olds are allowed to play in the Regional leagues.

Raven wrote:Ok, so now with almost every card on the table, my question would be, if there is a Legit champion that doesn´t want to go up, and the alternative is to offer a promotion to a team that didn´t win the league, shouldn´t there at least be a small chance for the side that is to be relegated to play for their spot? I mean, Regensburg isn´t the perfect example as they forfeited games and are also sent down because of that, but if they were last based on results, they might still be more competitive & experienced than the 2nd or third side from the league below...


Which would make it a lot more complicated and would lead to know even one or two or three weeks later which team forms a league. If you finish last that's your problem and you go down if somebody else wants to go up.

Inmho, the relegation between the 7th of 1BLSW and 2nd playoff 2BLs+2BLW is absolutely unnecessary. Because it complicates things en masse. Even leagues down. If Aachen wins and Stuttgart beats Unterföhring there is one place short in the Regionalliga Bayern, so the 7th placed team Bad Reichenhall (or Nürnberg because they said No to promotion) will go down to the Verbandsliga Bayern, which has a North and South group based on where the teams are from. Remember: the biggest distance between teams playing in one of those groups there was 520 km one way in 2016/17 (Coburg - Brixen, Italy) so it does make a lot of difference how the groups are formed - which can't unless all the playoffs/relegation matches are played.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby vazshap » Wed, 21 Jun 2017, 15:39

I wonder, do Germany have a U-20 league? Or a league for even younger kids?
Because it would be great if we, European nations cup members had also U-20 competition. Imagine if Romania, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Russia and Georgia played also U-20 Europian cup tournament.. That would help to develop and promote rugby in this countries..

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 21 Jun 2017, 16:05

Do you mean any different than this? http://www.rugbyeurope.eu/competitions/ ... ampionship

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 22 Jun 2017, 06:28

vazshap wrote:I wonder, do Germany have a U-20 league? Or a league for even younger kids?
Because it would be great if we, European nations cup members had also U-20 competition. Imagine if Romania, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Russia and Georgia played also U-20 Europian cup tournament.. That would help to develop and promote rugby in this countries..


As an addition, there was also a U18-competition featuring all Euroepan sides including the 6 Nation teams. Just after France won ahead of Georgia and Portugal finished 6th, the Shame (Home) Nations and Italy left the competition because Ireland or Scotland would have been forced to play relegation games.
The Home Nations are the biggest problem continental unions face in youth rugby.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby frakturfreak » Sat, 24 Jun 2017, 19:01

Heidelberg are German champion again.

They won 39:35 against their local rival Pforzheim in Berlin.

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Re: German rugby

Postby ultravioletu » Sat, 24 Jun 2017, 20:11

...stretching the definition of "local" to "from a different, 50 km away town". :)

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 24 Jun 2017, 20:31

30 miles is pretty local. Its similar to Leicester and Northampton that everyone calls a local derby.

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Re: German rugby

Postby ultravioletu » Sat, 24 Jun 2017, 20:43

Well, they're in the same state, and both had to hitch a 600 km ride to play the final in Berlin, so from certain points of view they could be seen as "local" rival.

But in Heidelberg there are four other clubs, one of them across the road (and which gave them a good beating last autumn), and for me those are THE local rivals.

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Re: German rugby

Postby ultravioletu » Sat, 24 Jun 2017, 20:49

Back to the game, it was a close contest, Pforzheim was up 18-15 at the interval, then streched the lead 22-15 and 28-22 at some point, then HRK scored three unanswered tries, which proved decissive.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sat, 24 Jun 2017, 21:23

Did they play in Berlin last time? Was there any sort of proper stadium, or crowd?

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Re: German rugby

Postby ultravioletu » Sat, 24 Jun 2017, 21:47

The finals are played on the rugby ground of the hosting club (which isn't necessarily one of the finalists - last year it was RK Heusenstamm, this year RK 03 Berlin), with terraces of various capacities, ranging from none to a couple of hundreds of places. Some may have one small roofed stand, exceptionally even two.

Attendance usually about 1.000-1.500, mostly standing at the railing around the green. Not sure what was this year.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sat, 24 Jun 2017, 21:55

ultravioletu wrote:The finals are played on the rugby ground of the hosting club (which isn't necessarily one of the finalists - last year it was RK Heusenstamm, this year RK 03 Berlin), with terraces of various capacities, ranging from none to a couple of hundreds of places. Some may have one small roofed stand, exceptionally even two.

Attendance usually about 1.000-1.500, mostly standing at the railing around the green. Not sure what was this year.


Thanks. Not sure why they don't just have it at the home of the top ranked finalist to try and get more of a crowd. Next year they can have it in Paris at the grounds of Stade France? :)

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Re: German rugby

Postby ultravioletu » Sat, 24 Jun 2017, 22:13

Because then the place would be known one or two weeks in advance. They like to decide the host at the beginning of the season. And "decide" is probably too much said, it implies some sort of "choosing" - usually one hopes that at least one club submits an application for hosting.

According to the TR review, some 1.500 paying spectators watched the game http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/8999/41/ (in German).

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Re: German rugby

Postby frakturfreak » Sat, 24 Jun 2017, 23:07

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:Did they play in Berlin last time? Was there any sort of proper stadium, or crowd?


No they didn’t play in Berlin last year. It’s decided every year in advance and clubs can apply to host it at the Union.

The local club applied for hosting the final as part of their 50th anniversary. The also had a home semi two weeks prior against the back then champion now vice champion. But alas no final at home. Still the stadium was filled.

The stadium were 3 stone terraces on one side of the pitch, that they build 3 months prior thanks to a crowdfunding campaign and a fence on the other side.

Nethertheless it was great entertainment for me.

The official annouced crowd was 1,405.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sun, 25 Jun 2017, 08:12

Thanks. That's a really respectable crowd given the far away neutral venue, particularly if the fans were paying.

I am curious about German club rugby as I want you to join the Pro12. We need to invite you before your crowds get bigger and you decide you can just have your own professional national league.

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Re: German rugby

Postby frakturfreak » Sun, 25 Jun 2017, 18:49

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:Thanks. That's a really respectable crowd given the far away neutral venue, particularly if the fans were paying.


Yes they were paying and the price was just 8,00 €, double the normal amount since it included another cup match prior to the final. Still very cheap.

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:I am curious about German club rugby as I want you to join the Pro12. We need to invite you before your crowds get bigger and you decide you can just have your own professional national league.


I hope that doesn’t happen since I don’t like the idea of large distance regular season multi national leagues. We’ve got the European cups for that. It makes sense for the celtic nations since they can’t financially afford professional leagues of their own each. But please don’t pull us unto this.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sun, 25 Jun 2017, 19:03

Haha. Yes, I am being selfish I suppose. Like US and Canada I think it is best for Germany to find its own way.

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Re: German rugby

Postby frakturfreak » Mon, 26 Jun 2017, 18:44


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Re: German rugby

Postby DragonMike » Sun, 09 Jul 2017, 18:49

To make it a bit less clear, tus düsseldorf still have an appeal lodged at the sports courts against an 8 point deduction which should win, and also paderborn play in the northern league although technically that isn't allowed. So in fact there are now 10 western teams at level 2.....

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Re: German rugby

Postby DragonMike » Sun, 09 Jul 2017, 18:56

Oh and 2 teams came down to BL 2. North, so now there are 6 northern teams and 10 western. No promoter from nrw or pfalz but maybe from north? Bit of a pickle....

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Re: German rugby

Postby CM » Sun, 09 Jul 2017, 20:08

So this weekend there was the annual German rugby convention. It might need a bit of time for me to make sense of it, it sounded a bit confusing.

Some highlights:
- There won't be a summer season. (Which is fine by me)
- The Wild Rugby Academy has some problems with the DRV.
- There are some splits in German rugby, but for the moment the same personnel will stay on deck.

The last two points could be trouble for the future of the national teams. But there is not much that can be said what the problems actually are.

It seems to be partially because thw WRA wants to focus on 15s and the DRV on the 7s to get support from the Olympic program. Also the WRA might want to have more control and not only supply resources, but control them, including things like full marketing rights. Doesn't look so good.

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