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German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 13 Sep 2017, 06:22

jservuk wrote:See this ...

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cric ... 43516.html

Maybe that's the answer - shift 100,000 people from NZ, South Africa to Germany for a rugby revolution to kick off there too.


And still not a single German playing it :D
But we try this with Aussies and Kiwis every year. It is called Oktoberfest. You know, we got beer :D
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Thu, 05 Oct 2017, 15:41

An interesting article in Midi Olympique from Monday explained the conflict between DRV and Wild. It says mulu is responsible of the break. Robert Mohr wonder how DRV will do now. Would be interesting to know what mulu have to say.

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Re: German rugby

Postby germanbullsfan » Thu, 05 Oct 2017, 19:06

I am always sceptic , about one man shows in Businesses like that. If it works you a hero if not you fucked up big time! Lets hope for the first one!

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Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Wed, 25 Oct 2017, 16:30

RugbyLiebe wrote:A little bit like the old "the Nazis stopped Rugby Union in Germany as it was considered an enemy sport"-bullshit, when this is so dead wrong that Germany played Italy 1940 in Stuttgart's biggest stadium called Adolf-Hitler-Kampfbahn.
It is a much easier to believe that a bad regime did more bad things, than realize that Rugby was simply an extreme minor sport with just 1.925 players in 52 clubs as of 1.1.1937 (you know Nazis loved their accurate numbers https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationals ... Mitglieder ) and its downfall was due to the amateur ethos which simply didn't match with the extremely equal society like in post-war Germany.


I always thought the opposite : Nazis supported rugby (second win against France came in 1938), so post-war regime associated the sport to it and gave up it.

The fall of German rugby always fascinated me. I never really understood how this happened.

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Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Wed, 25 Oct 2017, 16:40

RugbyLiebe wrote:A little bit like the old "the Nazis stopped Rugby Union in Germany as it was considered an enemy sport"-bullshit, when this is so dead wrong that Germany played Italy 1940 in Stuttgart's biggest stadium called Adolf-Hitler-Kampfbahn.
It is a much easier to believe that a bad regime did more bad things, than realize that Rugby was simply an extreme minor sport with just 1.925 players in 52 clubs as of 1.1.1937 (you know Nazis loved their accurate numbers https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationals ... Mitglieder ) and its downfall was due to the amateur ethos which simply didn't match with the extremely equal society like in post-war Germany.


I always thought the opposite : Nazis supported rugby (second win against France came in 1938), so post-war regime associated the sport to it and gave up it (First post-war test came only in 1952).

The fall of German rugby always fascinated me. I never really understood how this happened.
Last edited by olivier on Wed, 25 Oct 2017, 16:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: German rugby

Postby iul » Wed, 25 Oct 2017, 16:57

olivier wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:A little bit like the old "the Nazis stopped Rugby Union in Germany as it was considered an enemy sport"-bullshit, when this is so dead wrong that Germany played Italy 1940 in Stuttgart's biggest stadium called Adolf-Hitler-Kampfbahn.
It is a much easier to believe that a bad regime did more bad things, than realize that Rugby was simply an extreme minor sport with just 1.925 players in 52 clubs as of 1.1.1937 (you know Nazis loved their accurate numbers https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationals ... Mitglieder ) and its downfall was due to the amateur ethos which simply didn't match with the extremely equal society like in post-war Germany.


I always thought the opposite : Nazis supported rugby (second win against France came in 1938), so post-war regime associated the sport to it and gave up it.

The fall of German rugby always fascinated me. I never really understood how this happened.

There was no point in keeping up with rugby when it was amateur and closed off at the highest level. I can only imagine the state of rugby would have been today if they had turned pro and started a euro cup and world cup in the 50s. It would have been magnificent.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 26 Oct 2017, 09:50

iul wrote:
olivier wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:A little bit like the old "the Nazis stopped Rugby Union in Germany as it was considered an enemy sport"-bullshit, when this is so dead wrong that Germany played Italy 1940 in Stuttgart's biggest stadium called Adolf-Hitler-Kampfbahn.
It is a much easier to believe that a bad regime did more bad things, than realize that Rugby was simply an extreme minor sport with just 1.925 players in 52 clubs as of 1.1.1937 (you know Nazis loved their accurate numbers https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationals ... Mitglieder ) and its downfall was due to the amateur ethos which simply didn't match with the extremely equal society like in post-war Germany.


I always thought the opposite : Nazis supported rugby (second win against France came in 1938), so post-war regime associated the sport to it and gave up it.

The fall of German rugby always fascinated me. I never really understood how this happened.


There was no point in keeping up with rugby when it was amateur and closed off at the highest level. I can only imagine the state of rugby would have been today if they had turned pro and started a euro cup and world cup in the 50s. It would have been magnificent.


1st of all, I don't think there's a big fall at all. It was never big, maybe you could just be competitive with minor structures in that era. I mean Germany was one of the first countries worldwide to play rugby (The British liked to send their kids to German colleges in the 19th century). So there was a lot of knowledge and also tradition in those few clubs (Hannover 1878, Heidelberger RK 1872, Frankfurt 1880 are i.e. are all clubs still alive and playing rugby until today without a major break in their history). One thing I can definitely say: I've never ever heard that somebody thought that Rugby was a Nazi sport.

So the question is more: why did it stop at being such a minor sport in Germany?
And there jul brings up some very valid arguments, which I believe are all of them true.

Why it never took off imho:
+ our free public schools are generally seen as the best. If you go to a private school, people will (and in most cases rightfully) say, that you were just to stupid to make it in the normal public school system. BUT public schools don't specialize in sports, Physical education gives you an overview about sports. Specialization is done in clubs. And there the amateur ethos is a big hinderance.
+ Germans didn't go to universities abroad that much, with being the educational and science powerhouse for basically the 19th century until 1945. And then, when we regained some of that credit, universities became free 1970. So again just minor impact of students coming back and than wanting to continue the game they fell in love with. This probably changed with the Erasmus exchange program. I reckon this is de facto one of the most important programs which led to a lot of new clubs everywhere.
+ A sport were, even in England, there are no leagues nor championships until 1972, is simply seen as a joke from a German POI.
+ All the Home Nations simply refused to play us in 15s with any true national team. Until today for a matter of fact. German POI: "well, then we beat them in soccer".
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby germanbullsfan » Thu, 26 Oct 2017, 17:02

Another reason why it didnt start off after the war was the the first world cup for Trizonisia early in 54 ! That victory kickstarted soccer so radical , that since that time no other sport can seriously compete with it!
Rugby Liebe forgot to mention Stuttgart Bad Cannstatt , in the so called Kohlschen Anstalt they played Rugby since 1860 ! And in the 1890ies Stuttgart had 3 fullgrown Rugbyclubs

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Re: German rugby

Postby rey200 » Fri, 27 Oct 2017, 13:04

Well, you know that before that German Championship finals used to draw 80000+ spectators every year?

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 28 Oct 2017, 07:29

rey200 wrote:Well, you know that before that German Championship finals used to draw 80000+ spectators every year?


No I don't know that. Maybe you mean 800+. If not, I'd love to see a source for it.
To my knowledge, there was not a single stadium pre-war to fit 80k.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 02 Nov 2017, 15:46

German squad for the November internationals.
Not all 38 players will be available for all 3 games, but most will stay and practice together from November 6th until the third game.
Imho german squad is getting stronger on paper every single game.
Latest additions, between some youngster like Ball, Fairhurst and Klewinghaus who should get some game-time; former Premiership and Championship player Adam Preocanin and, if he is ready after his injury, former Glasgow flyhalf Hagen Schulte. New in the squad is also former Pontypool backrower Luke Dyckhoff.

http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/9166/37/

Heidelberger RK: Sean Armstrong, Raynor Parkinson, Timo Vollenkemper, Jaco Otto, Jarrid Els, Michael Poppmeier, Jörn Schröder, Thore Schmidt, Samy Füchsel, Sebastian Ferreira, Hagen Schulte, Pierre Mathurin, Marcel Coetzee, Steffen Liebig, Dash Barber, Luis Ball, Kehoma Brenner, Ayron Schramm
RG Heidelberg: Antony Dickinson
SC Frankfurt 1880: Mark Sztyndera, Winston Cameron-Dow, Marcel Becker
SC Neuenheim: Nikolai Klewinghaus
TSV Handschuhsheim: Julius Nostadt
Neckarsulmer SU: Mark Fairhurst, Marcel Henn
RC Strasbourg (FRA): Mika Tyumenev, Tim Menzel
La Rochelle (FRA): Erik Marks
RC Vannes (FRA): Christopher Hilsenbeck
Valence d’Agen (FRA): Felicien Vergnon
RC Dijon (FRA): Harris Aounallah
Luctonians (ENG): Dale Garner
Old Ethamian’s (ENG): Adam Preocanin
Cardiff RFC (WAL): Luke Dyckhoff
Bridgend (WAL): Jamie Murphy
Aberdeen (SCO): Matthias Schösser
Tarbes (FRA): Mathieu Dacau
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Figaro » Fri, 03 Nov 2017, 12:19

RugbyLiebe wrote:German squad for the November internationals.
Not all 38 players will be available for all 3 games, but most will stay and practice together from November 6th until the third game.
Imho german squad is getting stronger on paper every single game.
Latest additions, between some youngster like Ball, Fairhurst and Klewinghaus who should get some game-time; former Premiership and Championship player Adam Preocanin and, if he is ready after his injury, former Glasgow flyhalf Hagen Schulte. New in the squad is also former Pontypool backrower Luke Dyckhoff.

http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/9166/37/

Heidelberger RK: Sean Armstrong, Raynor Parkinson, Timo Vollenkemper, Jaco Otto, Jarrid Els, Michael Poppmeier, Jörn Schröder, Thore Schmidt, Samy Füchsel, Sebastian Ferreira, Hagen Schulte, Pierre Mathurin, Marcel Coetzee, Steffen Liebig, Dash Barber, Luis Ball, Kehoma Brenner, Ayron Schramm
RG Heidelberg: Antony Dickinson
SC Frankfurt 1880: Mark Sztyndera, Winston Cameron-Dow, Marcel Becker
SC Neuenheim: Nikolai Klewinghaus
TSV Handschuhsheim: Julius Nostadt
Neckarsulmer SU: Mark Fairhurst, Marcel Henn
RC Strasbourg (FRA): Mika Tyumenev, Tim Menzel
La Rochelle (FRA): Erik Marks
RC Vannes (FRA): Christopher Hilsenbeck
Valence d’Agen (FRA): Felicien Vergnon
RC Dijon (FRA): Harris Aounallah
Luctonians (ENG): Dale Garner
Old Ethamian’s (ENG): Adam Preocanin
Cardiff RFC (WAL): Luke Dyckhoff
Bridgend (WAL): Jamie Murphy
Aberdeen (SCO): Matthias Schösser
Tarbes (FRA): Mathieu Dacau


I'm surprised there aren't more T2/3s playing in the Welsh Premiership. It has a lot of players (16 teams), the standard is higher than most European leagues (besides the Pro ones I'd say only the french and English second divisions are better, though the best Italian, Russian and Romanian teams would probably walk it and it's very hard to compare leagues that never compete against each other), plus I would have thought that many of the players were eligible by ancestry, especially for places like Poland.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 03 Nov 2017, 16:43

You are giving up on a regional contract though, and possibly a Premiership or English 2nd tier comp one as many of these guys will be EQP through a parent or granny.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 03 Nov 2017, 18:14

Actually it is unbelievable that there aren't more from English leagues. Wales has at least a fair share relative to its size.
But England: there must be hundreds of German eligible players just because a grandmother, grandfather or mother or father was born in Germany as an army kid.
Why is it that not only no serious numbers of European foreigners (and no Welsh, Scottish and most Irish are NOT foreigners) play in England and not many English chose another country apart from "countries" within their country.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 05 Nov 2017, 14:14

On this very point:

In today's rugby paper it has a little article on National League 1 player Adam Preocanin from Old Elthamians who has been called up by Germany. It says he knows a guy called Alex Pereira-Inacio who is "involed in Portugese Rugby" and mentioned that he was qualified for Germany. This mate then contacted Germany to tell them and he says he's been in contact with them since last year before obviously now being called up.

I think this probably highlights a couple of things about why there aren't more people like this. 1) They don't know how to make themselves available, particularly if they aren't into self promotion people would feel its pretty arrogant to email a national federation saying "I qualify. pick me!" 2) they might not realise this is a standard they can play. I'd guess people in the third tier have probably given up on rugby as a "career" and play it as a serious hobby so they don't have an agent pushing them to do things. The Rugby Europe Championship has a non-existent profile in the UK. Outside of RWC nations like Georgia, Romania and probably Portugal I'd doubt even relatively serious players know the difference in level between say Germany and Austria.

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Re: German rugby

Postby suofficer » Mon, 06 Nov 2017, 07:38

Thats actually me. My 'contact list' is basically this forum. So far using this is site I got Juliano Fiori introduced to Brazil and Adam to Germany with another potential for Serbia. Obvisously all I do is hand over a contact but this is Forum is proving an excellent place to start.

West London is very multicultral , my rugby club alone has everything from Nigerian, Ivory Coast to Polish and Sri Lankan. I would say this is normal in south east england.

But I would agree with a lot of whats been said. It just doesn't occur to people that they may be eligible.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Figaro » Mon, 06 Nov 2017, 09:12

RugbyLiebe wrote:Wales has at least a fair share relative to its size.
But England: there must be hundreds of German eligible players just because a grandmother, grandfather or mother or father was born in Germany as an army kid.


I disagree - in Rugby terms, Wales is a much bigger country relative to England, so actually you'd expect a lot more. There is a huge concentration of amateur and semi-pro clubs within South Wales, way more than in any equivalent area in England. Even allowing for the fact that the valleys have comparatively little in-migration compared to other parts of the UK (not so Cardiff and Newport though), I'd expect almost every club to have one or two members eligible for somewhere outside the UK.

Hard to know as there aren't reliable sources, but several people who got Wales caps in the last ten years or so were eligible for other places e.g. Josh Navidi (Iran), Justin Tipuric (Croatia), Chris Czekaj (Poland) which points to a similar concentration through the pyramid. Obviously the best are holding out for regional contracts and/or Welsh international recognition, but the vast majority won't ever get that far. Of course there are a few who have indeed gone on to represent elsewhere e.g. Chris Dicomidis (Cyprus), the Germany players named above.

Welsh, Scottish and most Irish are NOT foreigners) play in England and not many English chose another country apart from "countries" within their country


You're entitled to your own politics but in every Rugby sense they are separate. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about this.

suofficer wrote:But I would agree with a lot of whats been said. It just doesn't occur to people that they may be eligible.


Yes, also I think that on this forum, interested as we are in the development of Rugby world wide, we probably over-estimate how much interest some people might have in playing international Rugby for minor Rugby nations. Think about it: most of these players probably don't really feel any affinity for the countries that their Grandparents just happened to be born in (especially if it was only because they were there on a tour of military duty, or the grandparents themselves left as small children). I would guess that almost none of them will speak the languages of the countries for which they're eligible. Would you really want to commit to flying across the globe several times - potentially at your own expense - to play and train, usually without payment, in an environment where you are an outsider and where you can't speak the language (and where, in some cases, they won't speak yours) - and all this to gain dubious recognition in a country you might never even have visited, and next to none back at home? That is a pretty hard sell, you can hardly blame them for being ambivalent about it.
Last edited by Figaro on Mon, 06 Nov 2017, 09:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 06 Nov 2017, 09:23

From Spanish experience: the union, during former coach Sonnes tenure and thanks to French-contact through Heineken Jean-Miguel Aguirre started having a look at itsrugby to look for Spanish family names. Now the union no longer seems to investigate that way but it's players talking to teammates who seem to convince them that they are eligible, that's why when one new guy comes from a ProD2 club in the following months some others appear from the same team. And through social media now parents are also more prone to contact directly the union saying "hey, my kid is Spanish". I've read messages like that on Twitter and I know athletes that have gone to the Olympics after their mothers sent private messages through Facebook...

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Re: German rugby

Postby linushector » Mon, 06 Nov 2017, 10:07

I´ve personally seen players that are and potentially are eligible for Sweden and tried to contact them by Facebook to see if they want to play for Sweden. But at the moment the Swedish rugby union does not have the funding or interest in bringing guys over. Players like Hugh Gustafsson of Newport Gwent Dragons, Markus Vanzati of Queesland Reds, Kurt Eklund of Auckland, Loyd Johansson before he played for oz....

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Re: German rugby

Postby Figaro » Mon, 06 Nov 2017, 10:26

linushector wrote:I´ve personally seen players that are and potentially are eligible for Sweden and tried to contact them by Facebook to see if they want to play for Sweden. But at the moment the Swedish rugby union does not have the funding or interest in bringing guys over. Players like Hugh Gustafsson of Newport Gwent Dragons, Markus Vanzati of Queesland Reds, Kurt Eklund of Auckland, Loyd Johansson before he played for oz....


I always wondered about Hugh Gustafson! BTW he's now on the Ospreys' books.

The financial issue is a big point. If the unions can't afford to even to reimburse players for their travel expenses, let alone pay them for their time and efforts, then it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't chose to take that path, especially as (in Gustafson's case) he would lose his Welsh eligibility. Sweden can't realistically offer the potential to play at the RWC either, like Germany can. That might not matter so much to be honest though as he has yet to appear for the Ospreys this year and is way down the pecking order.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 06 Nov 2017, 14:03

Figaro wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Welsh, Scottish and most Irish are NOT foreigners) play in England and not many English chose another country apart from "countries" within their country


You're entitled to your own politics but in every Rugby sense they are separate. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about this.


While I do agree I might have a chip on the shoulder about this topic (I think it nearly killed of true international rugby as, until today, many rugby officials are content with international being their team playing against other Uk nations and former colonies) But in this case it was solely to prevent the typical, but XYZ plays for [insert Uk "country"] apart from being [insert other UK "country"].
It simply kills counting how many players from other nations play somewhere else, when those players moving "nations" within their country is counted as well. This is gonna be extremely interesting when the Brexit is finalized. Maybe we will see even less non-English and non-UK-players in British leagues.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Figaro » Mon, 06 Nov 2017, 14:31

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Figaro wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Welsh, Scottish and most Irish are NOT foreigners) play in England and not many English chose another country apart from "countries" within their country


You're entitled to your own politics but in every Rugby sense they are separate. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about this.


While I do agree I might have a chip on the shoulder about this topic (I think it nearly killed of true international rugby as, until today, many rugby officials are content with international being their team playing against other Uk nations and former colonies) But in this case it was solely to prevent the typical, but XYZ plays for [insert Uk "country"] apart from being [insert other UK "country"].
It simply kills counting how many players from other nations play somewhere else, when those players moving "nations" within their country is counted as well. This is gonna be extremely interesting when the Brexit is finalized. Maybe we will see even less non-English and non-UK-players in British leagues.


They have very fluid borders and there's a lot of movement between them so that's only to be expected. That would still be the case if they were all independent states.

I don't think Brexit (which, for what it's worth, I was very much against) will have any affect on playing statistics in any of the UK leagues. Most of the non-UK players are non-EU nationals, and the kind of players we're talking about above wouldn't be affected as they're UK citizens anyway.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 06 Nov 2017, 14:37

suofficer wrote:Thats actually me. My 'contact list' is basically this forum. So far using this is site I got Juliano Fiori introduced to Brazil and Adam to Germany with another potential for Serbia. Obvisously all I do is hand over a contact but this is Forum is proving an excellent place to start.

West London is very multicultral , my rugby club alone has everything from Nigerian, Ivory Coast to Polish and Sri Lankan. I would say this is normal in south east england.

But I would agree with a lot of whats been said. It just doesn't occur to people that they may be eligible.



That's terrific!

They should give you a finders fee at least!

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Re: German rugby

Postby suofficer » Mon, 06 Nov 2017, 14:56

Honestly happy to do it in the spirit of the game

Knowing my luck Preocanin will score the winning try against Portugal to keep them out of the WC.

He's a great guy with some very good playing experience, combined with how he acts in a coaching role Germany have got themselevs a quality player/guy/role model.

He played in Aus with some high profile names so maybe this is a bit of a PR coup as well

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 06 Nov 2017, 15:19

Figaro wrote:I don't think Brexit (which, for what it's worth, I was very much against) will have any affect on playing statistics in any of the UK leagues. Most of the non-UK players are non-EU nationals, and the kind of players we're talking about above wouldn't be affected as they're UK citizens anyway.


It depends on how they write the rules down. Without EU laws they might be able to declare whatever they like. "English-national-qualified" or "Non-English" as of now could make a difference. I mean the English Union could use it to have more English-eligible players in the Premiership. Apparently there are already guys not playing for another eligible country, because they have problems getting contracts in the Premiership and Championship afterwards. Most likely you are right, though, that not much might change from the situation today.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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