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German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby sanitycheck » Sun, 09 Jul 2017, 20:56

CM wrote:So this weekend there was the annual German rugby convention. It might need a bit of time for me to make sense of it, it sounded a bit confusing.

Some highlights:
- There won't be a summer season. (Which is fine by me)
- The Wild Rugby Academy has some problems with the DRV.
- There are some splits in German rugby, but for the moment the same personnel will stay on deck.

The last two points could be trouble for the future of the national teams. But there is not much that can be said what the problems actually are.

It seems to be partially because thw WRA wants to focus on 15s and the DRV on the 7s to get support from the Olympic program. Also the WRA might want to have more control and not only supply resources, but control them, including things like full marketing rights. Doesn't look so good.


Man is that how it was pitched - a "summer season" ? My understanding was it was just going to flip the rounds around , ie round 1 in the spring and round 2 in the fall, no change of dates, still having the 7s season as normal..... made sense to me rather than a 5 month winter break.


On the other items on the agenda... was reading the ticker... looks like an explosive day and makes sense some of the other "rumours" I had been hearing since season end. Will be an interesting coming month or two.
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Re: German rugby

Postby DragonMike » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 06:48

Yep, made total sense, then some clubs starting complaining the winter break is too long, what should they do.... Utterly ridiculous. Go to the gym maybe? Instead of going in 30c heat.... Every other country takes 5+ months break. German rugby will never reach the next level as long as the clubs remain in charge imo.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 07:59

CM wrote:It seems to be partially because thw WRA wants to focus on 15s and the DRV on the 7s to get support from the Olympic program. Also the WRA might want to have more control and not only supply resources, but control them, including things like full marketing rights. Doesn't look so good.

Woops, I expected you to find yourselves in a crossroads situation with XV and 7s, but not so quickly. I hope you can sort it out.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sanitycheck » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 08:41

DragonMike wrote:Yep, made total sense, then some clubs starting complaining the winter break is too long, what should they do.... Utterly ridiculous. Go to the gym maybe? Instead of going in 30c heat.... Every other country takes 5+ months break. German rugby will never reach the next level as long as the clubs remain in charge imo.



The concept is so so simple

Play from March to May/June .... break for 7s season (just like now) , people can still go on their summer holidays (just like now, choose to play 7s or go on holiday)..... finish the season sept - Oct/Nov (just like it starts now).... its a no brainer. Then have your 5 month off season .
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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 09:31

sanitycheck wrote:
DragonMike wrote:Yep, made total sense, then some clubs starting complaining the winter break is too long, what should they do.... Utterly ridiculous. Go to the gym maybe? Instead of going in 30c heat.... Every other country takes 5+ months break. German rugby will never reach the next level as long as the clubs remain in charge imo.



The concept is so so simple

Play from March to May/June .... break for 7s season (just like now) , people can still go on their summer holidays (just like now, choose to play 7s or go on holiday)..... finish the season sept - Oct/Nov (just like it starts now).... its a no brainer. Then have your 5 month off season .


The problem is students and university holidays. German rugby, especially in the lower divisions, relies heavily on uni students. And the uni year starts in October. Which means that many players won't be available in the final stages of the seasons due to moving uni. A lot less students move uni in April.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby DragonMike » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 10:05

RugbyLiebe wrote:
sanitycheck wrote:
DragonMike wrote:Yep, made total sense, then some clubs starting complaining the winter break is too long, what should they do.... Utterly ridiculous. Go to the gym maybe? Instead of going in 30c heat.... Every other country takes 5+ months break. German rugby will never reach the next level as long as the clubs remain in charge imo.



The concept is so so simple

Play from March to May/June .... break for 7s season (just like now) , people can still go on their summer holidays (just like now, choose to play 7s or go on holiday)..... finish the season sept - Oct/Nov (just like it starts now).... its a no brainer. Then have your 5 month off season .


The problem is students and university holidays. German rugby, especially in the lower divisions, relies heavily on uni students. And the uni year starts in October. Which means that many players won't be available in the final stages of the seasons due to moving uni. A lot less students move uni in April.


But the season starts first weekend in September, so the students currently miss the whole of pre-season and the start of the season. It's literally no change, except that there is a 3.5 month rather than a 5 month mid-season break.

All the mini issues that were raised show why the DRV cant be trusted to develop German rugby to a high level. The issue is bigger: whether a club is missing a few students shouldn't be the key issue that decides important strategic decisions about how to get to high performance domestic rugby.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 11:32

DragonMike wrote:
But the season starts first weekend in September, so the students currently miss the whole of pre-season and the start of the season. It's literally no change, except that there is a 3.5 month rather than a 5 month mid-season break.

All the mini issues that were raised show why the DRV cant be trusted to develop German rugby to a high level. The issue is bigger: whether a club is missing a few students shouldn't be the key issue that decides important strategic decisions about how to get to high performance domestic rugby.


At the moment a few clubs are crying because a few players are missing. If you change to a calendar season EVERY club down to the lowest league will cry because they are missing some players in key parts of their season AND won't be allowed to field new players who just arrived/moved there, because they are blocked (no new players in playoffs i.e.).

I am all about a high performance unit. But why not plan the season of the 1st Bundesliga accordingly and in the time-frame as it is. I mean every other 1st division on this continent can do it to not interfere with the 7s Grand Prix.

But no, in Germany there were NO games played in November and an absolute irrelevant cup was there instead for a week as well (as in the two last weekends of March). And than clubs start to cry at the end of May that their players are not available due to national team duties. And instead of realizing this and changing accordingly we try to do the most complicated thing and this is to change to a calendar year.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby CM » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 11:46

I'm with rugbyliebe.
And if we ever make it to the sevens series, I hope that our core 7s players won't play 15s no matter what time it is. It already makes no sense for some of them.
There are problems integrating a high performance sevens team and an amateur league. So just take the sevens players out of the league, it won't work otherwise.
And I hope the wra and the drv can get over their differences. As far as I can see they still need each other and rugby in Germany needs them to cooperate.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sanitycheck » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 12:13

RugbyLiebe wrote:
DragonMike wrote:
But the season starts first weekend in September, so the students currently miss the whole of pre-season and the start of the season. It's literally no change, except that there is a 3.5 month rather than a 5 month mid-season break.

All the mini issues that were raised show why the DRV cant be trusted to develop German rugby to a high level. The issue is bigger: whether a club is missing a few students shouldn't be the key issue that decides important strategic decisions about how to get to high performance domestic rugby.


At the moment a few clubs are crying because a few players are missing. If you change to a calendar season EVERY club down to the lowest league will cry because they are missing some players in key parts of their season AND won't be allowed to field new players who just arrived/moved there, because they are blocked (no new players in playoffs i.e.).

I am all about a high performance unit. But why not plan the season of the 1st Bundesliga accordingly and in the time-frame as it is. I mean every other 1st division on this continent can do it to not interfere with the 7s Grand Prix.

But no, in Germany there were NO games played in November and an absolute irrelevant cup was there instead for a week as well (as in the two last weekends of March). And than clubs start to cry at the end of May that their players are not available due to national team duties. And instead of realizing this and changing accordingly we try to do the most complicated thing and this is to change to a calendar year.


Disagree whole heartidly - no matter when you play first round or 2nd round , you will miss players at any point for what ever reason. But if a team is truely in the hunt come play off time and a player is missing because of changing Uni's - how many clubs does that effect ?

A 5 month break in the middle of the season is ludicrous.
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Re: German rugby

Postby sanitycheck » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 12:52

DragonMike wrote:
But the season starts first weekend in September, so the students currently miss the whole of pre-season and the start of the season. It's literally no change, except that there is a 3.5 month rather than a 5 month mid-season break.

.


To add to that, there is a 3.5 month break with rugby being played (in the form of 7s) ..... whereas the 5th month break nothing gets played.. at least in an end of season 5 month break you can plan a proper pre season and the players can have a proper break and not have to me-ander about training during the 5 months...
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Re: German rugby

Postby rey200 » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 13:19

Well, for me it is also sort of a cultural problem. Every effing sport season in Germany ends in spring/summer. Not only football, but also Handball, Basketball, even Table Tennis! May/June is optimal to draw many people to watch amateur sports, november is not.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 13:28

sanitycheck wrote:
Disagree whole heartidly - no matter when you play first round or 2nd round , you will miss players at any point for what ever reason. But if a team is truely in the hunt come play off time and a player is missing because of changing Uni's - how many clubs does that effect ?

A 5 month break in the middle of the season is ludicrous.


We are not talking about important results (but lets face it RGH was never going to win the championship no matter how many players played or have not played for Germany). We are talking about amateur clubs probably not being able to field a full team due to that.
We are talking about spreading and growing the game - a totally different aspect as a high perfomance 7s unit. But also very important in the long run.
Lets face it: we need more clubs, more players more rugby awareness no matter what. While there are some points for awareness in a calendar season, there are many difficulties to overcome.

I don't see why lower league clubs should get a problem they never had, when 1st division clubs don't even bother to look for easy solutions, but implement a senseless cup. I do agree that everybody should try to solve this and yes the national team in both 7s and 15s is absolutely king. But first the easy solution must be looked at. This was simply not the case and again this senseless cup with three round in November and March is a sign that many Bundesliga clubs don't care about anything apart from themself.

This break might be ludicrous, when you are not used to it, but it is the case in every outdoor sport in Germany. Also it is not 5 months, but three at worst four (with mid November to Mid March). December, January, February.

The calendar season has, if you actually add the numbers a break of June, Juli, August and half of May and half of September. Which leads to three at worst four months. So where is the difference? And we are not even talking about the problems in junior rugby, where seasons alongside the school year make totally sense (also not talking about the German school breaks being different in every state so Lower Saxony starts on June 22nd and Bavarian summer holidays end on September 11th.)

So apart from not being used to this kind of breaks - what is the benefit?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 13:36

One last point I forgot about.
November internationals. Are you sure they don't interfere with the championship playoffs? Maybe they interfere less if in the middle of the season...
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 14:20

Here we come. Sevens continue to spoil emerging nations. Well done World Rugby...

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Re: German rugby

Postby DragonMike » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 14:43

Wrong. The league break is 24 weeks for Buli2 - end of October to first weekend in April.

If you go out in round 1 of the cup (which in theory half of all teams do), it is 22 weeks.

How long are the breaks in other grass field sports? i doubt they are 5-5.5 months.

On a positive note, it looks like a fully stocked BL2 is possible this year, which would at least reduce the break a bit.

The school year argument is not really relevant, only the final year leave school, and people leave different types of school at different ages anyway, and even different ages between BL.

If they could do an 10 week break from mid December to February it would be o.k. but we know it is about the pitch being blocked by the local authorities, that will never change.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 15:18

DragonMike wrote:Wrong. The league break is 24 weeks for Buli2 - end of October to first weekend in April.

If you go out in round 1 of the cup (which in theory half of all teams do), it is 22 weeks.

How long are the breaks in other grass field sports? i doubt they are 5-5.5 months.

On a positive note, it looks like a fully stocked BL2 is possible this year, which would at least reduce the break a bit.

The school year argument is not really relevant, only the final year leave school, and people leave different types of school at different ages anyway, and even different ages between BL.

If they could do an 10 week break from mid December to February it would be o.k. but we know it is about the pitch being blocked by the local authorities, that will never change.


But that is the problem of the clubs who just last year chose to implement a cup at that time in November. Not the problem of a winter break. Would have been no problem to play there (as the cup fixtures are actually showing). 4 more game days in November+ March - problem solved - you could have still played the cup later if really wanted.

This whole problem is a problem of wrong reasoning. I mean we are talking about leagues with just 14 game days + 2 playoffs in 52 weeks. You can fit that into everything if you want to.
Another reason this chaos happens again and again is, because the bloody Rugby Tag is in summer. And all changes are applied immediately. Why not hold it in winter? Half a year longer to get the changes published and actually think them through. In my eyes we, the DRV (and this is all of us involved in German rugby), has massively administrative problems and with DRV I don't mean the federation itself, but clubs jumping from one extreme solution to the next one.

Have a look at soccer. What's successful? Bloody copy it if you can. End of story. And no we don't have to reinvent the wheel every time.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 19:36

RugbyLiebe wrote:
DragonMike wrote:Wrong. The league break is 24 weeks for Buli2 - end of October to first weekend in April.

If you go out in round 1 of the cup (which in theory half of all teams do), it is 22 weeks.

How long are the breaks in other grass field sports? i doubt they are 5-5.5 months.

On a positive note, it looks like a fully stocked BL2 is possible this year, which would at least reduce the break a bit.

The school year argument is not really relevant, only the final year leave school, and people leave different types of school at different ages anyway, and even different ages between BL.

If they could do an 10 week break from mid December to February it would be o.k. but we know it is about the pitch being blocked by the local authorities, that will never change.


But that is the problem of the clubs who just last year chose to implement a cup at that time in November. Not the problem of a winter break. Would have been no problem to play there (as the cup fixtures are actually showing). 4 more game days in November+ March - problem solved - you could have still played the cup later if really wanted.

This whole problem is a problem of wrong reasoning. I mean we are talking about leagues with just 14 game days + 2 playoffs in 52 weeks. You can fit that into everything if you want to.
Another reason this chaos happens again and again is, because the bloody Rugby Tag is in summer. And all changes are applied immediately. Why not hold it in winter? Half a year longer to get the changes published and actually think them through. In my eyes we, the DRV (and this is all of us involved in German rugby), has massively administrative problems and with DRV I don't mean the federation itself, but clubs jumping from one extreme solution to the next one.

Have a look at soccer. What's successful? Bloody copy it if you can. End of story. And no we don't have to reinvent the wheel every time.



This is dangerously sensible logic, there is no chance of any rugby authority anywhere in the world following it.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sanitycheck » Tue, 11 Jul 2017, 06:42

RugbyLiebe wrote:
sanitycheck wrote:
Disagree whole heartidly - no matter when you play first round or 2nd round , you will miss players at any point for what ever reason. But if a team is truely in the hunt come play off time and a player is missing because of changing Uni's - how many clubs does that effect ?

A 5 month break in the middle of the season is ludicrous.


We are not talking about important results (but lets face it RGH was never going to win the championship no matter how many players played or have not played for Germany). We are talking about amateur clubs probably not being able to field a full team due to that.
We are talking about spreading and growing the game - a totally different aspect as a high perfomance 7s unit. But also very important in the long run.
Lets face it: we need more clubs, more players more rugby awareness no matter what. While there are some points for awareness in a calendar season, there are many difficulties to overcome.

I don't see why lower league clubs should get a problem they never had, when 1st division clubs don't even bother to look for easy solutions, but implement a senseless cup. I do agree that everybody should try to solve this and yes the national team in both 7s and 15s is absolutely king. But first the easy solution must be looked at. This was simply not the case and again this senseless cup with three round in November and March is a sign that many Bundesliga clubs don't care about anything apart from themself.

This break might be ludicrous, when you are not used to it, but it is the case in every outdoor sport in Germany. Also it is not 5 months, but three at worst four (with mid November to Mid March). December, January, February.

The calendar season has, if you actually add the numbers a break of June, Juli, August and half of May and half of September. Which leads to three at worst four months. So where is the difference? And we are not even talking about the problems in junior rugby, where seasons alongside the school year make totally sense (also not talking about the German school breaks being different in every state so Lower Saxony starts on June 22nd and Bavarian summer holidays end on September 11th.)

So apart from not being used to this kind of breaks - what is the benefit?




Over complicating it so so so so much.

Very simple.... play round 1 in the Spring, Round 2 in the Autumn .... exactly the same dates . Instead of a 5 month break in the winter with no rugby, you have a 3 to 3.5 month break with a 7s season in the middle (as normal) to break it up OR if you dont play 7s you go on holiday (as normal).

It is 5 months if you didnt make it past round 1 of the Pokal league, and not far off even if you did. 5th November 2016 was Pokal Rd 1 - 18th March was Pokal Rd 2 which meant you had to wait 4.5 months instead of 5 if you got past round 1 ..... stupid in the middle of any season.


The advantage of playing a calender year season is that from March to Oct/Nov you have a full rugby calender with 15s and 7s then a proper break and pre season over the winter.

Its not more complicated than that... really. Rugby gets played on exactly the same dates and time frame as it does now so people still get to have their holidays and what not just without the moronic 4.5 to 5 month break smack in the middle of a season.
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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 11 Jul 2017, 07:25

Don't understand why you bring up the Pokal (cup) again. This stupid (imho) timing was introduced last (!) year. And the end of the story was that the season lasted longer and then overlapped with 7s. Big surprise. Who could have ever seen that coming.

So some clubs who wanted the Pokal to be played in that time-frame which lead to your 4,5 months break now don't come up with the closest solution like getting rid of the cup (at least at that time), but no want to go to a calendar season as the ONLY nation in Western Europe (Austria has directly gone back to the old winter-break-scheme btw.).

I mean it is not so hard to google that there was a 3,5 (!) month winter break until just the season 2015/16 (3 month in 1. Bundesliga North). If you don't believe me: here you go, check yourself: http://rugbyweb.de/index.php?archive=2015-16&league=479

And this is what I mean with administrative problem. People in rugby club administration forget to have a look at the past. In this case one single year back seems to be to long ago and then come up with something absolutely new, which comes along with a lot of known and unknown problems.

And sorry it is more complicated than that. Change of fiscal administration for all clubs, Junior rugby, god forbid European club rugby, a transfer period which might lead to players not being able to play for 6-7 months, because they are blocked and off course as always with such reforms you haven't even thought of (Bundesligazuschuss might be a thing in some cities i.e.).

And this why exactly? That clubs don't have to admit, that their newest cup reform was not the smartest move in the end and became a problem for the most important part of rugby in Germany - rugby 7s. (btw. when would you play the cup then? league calendar year? Cup between two years :D ? And here we found the next problem as we go.)
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sanitycheck » Tue, 11 Jul 2017, 09:30

RugbyLiebe wrote:Don't understand why you bring up the Pokal (cup) again. This stupid (imho) timing was introduced last (!) year. And the end of the story was that the season lasted longer and then overlapped with 7s. Big surprise. Who could have ever seen that coming.

So some clubs who wanted the Pokal to be played in that time-frame which lead to your 4,5 months break now don't come up with the closest solution like getting rid of the cup (at least at that time), but no want to go to a calendar season as the ONLY nation in Western Europe (Austria has directly gone back to the old winter-break-scheme btw.).

I mean it is not so hard to google that there was a 3,5 (!) month winter break until just the season 2015/16 (3 month in 1. Bundesliga North). If you don't believe me: here you go, check yourself: http://rugbyweb.de/index.php?archive=2015-16&league=479

And this is what I mean with administrative problem. People in rugby club administration forget to have a look at the past. In this case one single year back seems to be to long ago and then come up with something absolutely new, which comes along with a lot of known and unknown problems.

And sorry it is more complicated than that. Change of fiscal administration for all clubs, Junior rugby, god forbid European club rugby, a transfer period which might lead to players not being able to play for 6-7 months, because they are blocked and off course as always with such reforms you haven't even thought of (Bundesligazuschuss might be a thing in some cities i.e.).


And this why exactly? That clubs don't have to admit, that their newest cup reform was not the smartest move in the end and became a problem for the most important part of rugby in Germany - rugby 7s. (btw. when would you play the cup then? league calendar year? Cup between two years :D ? And here we found the next problem as we go.)



I bring up the Pokal because that was the last game of the first round , and for some, the first game of the 2nd round that teams played.. its just a yard stick to show the difference each team had between games. Im not arguing for or against the validity of having the pokal or not.


I know that this was the first season with such a long break (5 months) and prior it was shorter. ..... but still, a 3.5 month break with no rugby , in the middle of a season is still bullshit!
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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 11 Jul 2017, 12:44

sanitycheck wrote:I know that this was the first season with such a long break (5 months) and prior it was shorter. ..... but still, a 3.5 month break with no rugby , in the middle of a season is still bullshit!


You know I maybe would even agree with you, if the change from dual to an calendar competition would change that. But it doesn't. There will still be the 3,5 month break in summer as it always has been. Only that now you are the only sport in Germany to do so and all the problems with that occur (oh another problem. Cough cough November tests).

You are used to not have a break like that from Australia (?) and that's the only problem with it. We Germans are used to that, because we have it in every single outdoor sport. AND we tend to play just one sport. Not rugby in one season and cricket in another.

Even in soccer the break is two months at the end of the season (google Regionalliga Bayern i.e. 20.5 (end of 16/17)-15.7. (start of 17/18)) and nearly 3 months in winter /December 1st - February 24th). So feeling uncomfortable with this is maybe just a culture shock...
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sanitycheck » Tue, 11 Jul 2017, 16:21

RugbyLiebe wrote:
sanitycheck wrote:I know that this was the first season with such a long break (5 months) and prior it was shorter. ..... but still, a 3.5 month break with no rugby , in the middle of a season is still bullshit!


You know I maybe would even agree with you, if the change from dual to an calendar competition would change that. But it doesn't. There will still be the 3,5 month break in summer as it always has been. Only that now you are the only sport in Germany to do so and all the problems with that occur (oh another problem. Cough cough November tests).


please let me know what november tests would impact.



RugbyLiebe wrote: You are used to not have a break like that from Australia (?) and that's the only problem with it. We Germans are used to that, because we have it in every single outdoor sport. AND we tend to play just one sport. Not rugby in one season and cricket in another.
sanitycheck wrote:
Im glad you put my nationality down to the only problem..... I know Germans are used to it. Ive now experienced 4 "winter breaks" here in Germany...... its stupid - cultural difference or not... its horrible. Australians have cricket season, football (soccer)which is in the summer, AFL season, Rugby season, Netball .. list goes on... its not a reason to have everything during the "non summer months" .

RugbyLiebe wrote: Even in soccer the break is two months at the end of the season (google Regionalliga Bayern i.e. 20.5 (end of 16/17)-15.7. (start of 17/18)) and nearly 3 months in winter /December 1st - February 24th). So feeling uncomfortable with this is maybe just a culture shock...


No... a comparisson to the football season is misrepresented. When rugby is on the same level as football here in terms of professionalism and players getting paid (yes levels down) , then we can compare. However I digress. A break mid season of how ever many months (with no play) is stupid - no culture shock. Many other nations have a "break" too , however there is still rugby going on .
Formerly known as "Aus_in_Germany"

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 12 Jul 2017, 07:26

sanitycheck wrote:
please let me know what november tests would impact.


When would the final be played? November? Hence this might be a problem with November tests. Last year the DRV had games on November 12th, November 19th and November 26th.


sanitycheck wrote:No... a comparisson to the football season is misrepresented. When rugby is on the same level as football here in terms of professionalism and players getting paid (yes levels down) , then we can compare. However I digress. A break mid season of how ever many months (with no play) is stupid - no culture shock. Many other nations have a "break" too , however there is still rugby going on .


I just had a look and my old amateur soccer club playing in division 7 or 8 starts its season Jul 22nd and ends it in May 19 2018 (winter break November 12th-March17) so even 4 month in the winter and 2 months in the summer. Nobody gets paid there, as that's actually their identitiy (we play for fun).

So you are saying that basically everyone in Germany and even better the world biggest sporting federation (German soccer federation) with more than 7 million (!) members is stupid in your eyes?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby mulu » Wed, 12 Jul 2017, 07:35

RugbyLiebe wrote:
sanitycheck wrote:
please let me know what november tests would impact.


When would the final be played? November? Hence this might be a problem with November tests. Last year the DRV had games on November 12th, November 19th and November 26th.


sanitycheck wrote:No... a comparisson to the football season is misrepresented. When rugby is on the same level as football here in terms of professionalism and players getting paid (yes levels down) , then we can compare. However I digress. A break mid season of how ever many months (with no play) is stupid - no culture shock. Many other nations have a "break" too , however there is still rugby going on .


I just had a look and my old amateur soccer club playing in division 7 or 8 starts its season Jul 22nd and ends it in May 19 2018 (winter break November 12th-March17) so even 4 month in the winter and 2 months in the summer. Nobody gets paid there, as that's actually their identitiy (we play for fun).

So you are saying that basically everyone in Germany and even better the world biggest sporting federation (German soccer federation) with more than 7 million (!) members is stupid in your eyes?


- The final of the 1st division was always to played in late October to give the 15s national team perfect preparation for the November tests.
- Soccer is so dominante in Germany that for now I'd rather be looking at times where soccer is not being played, for us to gain some attention then to follow soccers lead. American football is doing an alright (far from perfect job) with hosting the German Bowl in October. The winter sports are also only successful because they are lucky to happen in a time where soccer is in it's winter break (in regards of members some of them are even smaller then the DRV).
- Of course it doesn't make sense to synchronize the amateur levels (2nd Bundesliga and below, women and kids) with high performance.
- also nobody ever mentioned a 3,5 month summer break.

The whole thing was poorly prepared and is not suitable for every division, but I personally believe it is the best way moving forward if we were ever serious in making our 1st division more attractive and a pathway into our national teams. But that's just my 2 cents.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 12 Jul 2017, 08:10

mulu wrote:- The final of the 1st division was always to played in late October to give the 15s national team perfect preparation for the November tests.
- Soccer is so dominante in Germany that for now I'd rather be looking at times where soccer is not being played, for us to gain some attention then to follow soccers lead. American football is doing an alright (far from perfect job) with hosting the German Bowl in October. The winter sports are also only successful because they are lucky to happen in a time where soccer is in it's winter break (in regards of members some of them are even smaller then the DRV).
- Of course it doesn't make sense to synchronize the amateur levels (2nd Bundesliga and below, women and kids) with high performance.
- also nobody ever mentioned a 3,5 month summer break.

The whole thing was poorly prepared and is not suitable for every division, but I personally believe it is the best way moving forward if we were ever serious in making our 1st division more attractive and a pathway into our national teams. But that's just my 2 cents.


I often agree with you, but this time, after making up my mind, not.

- okay, that's possible, but would lead to a really close schedule in September/ October including one blocked weekend for the Oktoberfest 7s (which should be financed for more than just one year).

- After years of thoughts about this, in my opinion it makes no difference if soccer is on or not. Soccer is also on in October. The German bowl attendance has nothing to do wether there is soccer or not. Because there is always soccer on when the final is played. They are just good at bringing the AF community together for it. Playing in a "real" stadium might help. A smaller step in American Football where they already play in stadiums in the regular league.
Hotspots Heidelberg had no Bundesliga soccer in its region from 1990-2008 and hotspot Hanover from 1989-2002 and both failed to establish huge crowds for club games. Don't see that changing just because of a shift to a final in autumn.

I think you are right about winter sport, but it is also a quite cheap way to fill the program (and the public funded medias need a fig leave to show they show diversity in sport). Also the small federation you mentioned are winners. They are the ones bringing in the Olympic gold medals (luge, bobsleigh etc.) for Germany.

- Well if you just change the season halfs, we do have a 3,5 summer break. May till September.

But yeah lets see, now it stays the same for at least one year, maybe next year we have to look again if there might be a true benefit. Atm I personally don't see enough arguments for it.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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