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German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 10 Feb 2018, 20:12

TheStroBro wrote:Uh...the RFU has actually done this. Except through the EQP Fee and the collectively bargained four year deal worth in excess of £250MM. French and British Clubs don't release players from T2 Unions all the time. So that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard.


Then you need to work on your basic reading skills. The EQP is not about releasing players for national team games. It is about preparation time before that. Yes, thats extremely important. But an important difference between not releasing 17 players for a game or release for additional preparation.

But the WRA is not a club. They are a private entity. Show me one single case where the RFU agreed with a third party (not a club) about a player being released.

I mean you are from the USA. This is not so far away from the Pro-Rugby-thing with Schoninger trying to change rugby laws etc. I mean you know a lot more about the Pro-affair, try to compare it with this.

Its great that you are interested in German rugby, but every single time you post something there is a huge mistake like the "North vs. South clash" and you act like a know-everything. Is that really necessary?

I do agree with you and Olivier that it probably was a mistake to give the WRA so much power at first. It did and do like the pro-approach bx the WRA. But we are now talking about things the WRA is demanding the DRV simple can't give in.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 10 Feb 2018, 20:18

CM wrote:The agreement in England are about training time for the national team. And they are agreements with the clubs. The WRA has no official relation with any club. They just happen to play for one club (and some for two others).

And of course there simply isn't the money.



Uh no. It's about access to any England Qualified Player. Otherwise they wouldn't subsidize the salaries of almost the entire Premiership with £62.5MM/year. I understand your point but you're not understanding mine. The RFU are paying the employers of the players for access to them during International Windows.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 10 Feb 2018, 21:01

Who is the RFU? It basically is all clubs and rugby players in England. Therefore every single Premiership club and every single player within needs to be a part of the RFU.
Off course the RFU wants a strong club game. Therefore they set agreements to strengthen the clubs and make sure they have enough eligible players AND have the natioal team players as long as possible. But even without any payment the clubs always had to give them the players eligible if asked at least for a game.

And that's the problem between the WRA and the DRV.
The players are a part of the DRV (otherwise they couldn't register to play in Germany), the club(s) they play for are a part of the DRV, but the WRA is not.

Please bother to actually read all of regulation 4 it's all in there.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 10 Feb 2018, 22:28

You mean how you're supposed to pay all of your contracts. Pretty well read. It's how Schoninger will lose his court case if he ever takes USAR to court.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sun, 11 Feb 2018, 07:40

TheStroBro wrote:You mean how you're supposed to pay all of your contracts. Pretty well read. It's how Schoninger will lose his court case if he ever takes USAR to court.


Which contracts? Think this through. You are the WRA. You took nearly every national team player under contract as coaches or PR guys or whatever (but not a single one as a player). Why should the DRV pay for those work contracts?

I am not saying that an agreement couldn't or shouldn't be reached nontheless, but one still needs to subside what's actually happening here.

I am also not saying that what the WRA did was not great in the past years. It was. But their contract model does not fit a tiny bit to what they want now.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 11 Feb 2018, 10:51

Just catching up on all this news. No wonder Germany look awful against Romania. This situation needs to be sorted out quickly. Germany has made all sort of progress in the last 5-6 years and that can't be allowed to go to waste. Their rugby hasn't been in this good a shape since the 1930's. Them getting 100 points scored against them when they play Georgia is going to do nothing put damage the sport. This has to be fixed now.

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Re: German rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 11 Feb 2018, 14:36

RugbyLiebe wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:You mean how you're supposed to pay all of your contracts. Pretty well read. It's how Schoninger will lose his court case if he ever takes USAR to court.


Which contracts? Think this through. You are the WRA. You took nearly every national team player under contract as coaches or PR guys or whatever (but not a single one as a player). Why should the DRV pay for those work contracts?

I am not saying that an agreement couldn't or shouldn't be reached nontheless, but one still needs to subside what's actually happening here.

I am also not saying that what the WRA did was not great in the past years. It was. But their contract model does not fit a tiny bit to what they want now.


That's what regulation 4 is about. Teams paying all contracts. As you've said, the WRA does not employ these men as Athletes but as coaches. How many employers would grant men or women 12-16 weeks of leave? Very few in this country. Regulation 4 doesn't apply in this case.

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Re: German rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 11 Feb 2018, 20:53

sk 88 wrote:In England if you get injured on international duty the RFU pay the players wages and the costs of their treatment. In football I think FIFA runs an insurance scheme to make sure all countries have access to their players.

I assume that is what he was referring to rather than simply the players being covered hospital bills for themselves.

The Brazilian Rugby Union had an agreement with a health insurance company but it wasnt working the way expect and now they just recommend insurance agents. But our public health sucks. It is a very good universal system but corruption fucks it.
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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 12 Feb 2018, 08:20

TheStroBro wrote:That's what regulation 4 is about. Teams paying all contracts. As you've said, the WRA does not employ these men as Athletes but as coaches. How many employers would grant men or women 12-16 weeks of leave? Very few in this country. Regulation 4 doesn't apply in this case.


No offence, but in the USA you are simply the worst employer rights bargainers the world has ever seen.
I have 6 weeks paid leave + this year 12 additional bank holidays which are luckily happening in 2018 during the normal week. Mandatory are 20 days when working in a 5-day-week, 24 for a 6-day-week. If you take unpaid leave, this holidays are not cut by a single day. If you are sick, not a single holiday is cut. I know nobody with under 20 holidays and I know nobody who wouldn't take those days.

Yeah 12-16 weeks are a lot, but if I count everything together I am just 4-8 weeks short. That's doable. You know there are employers being proud of having a national team player on board. Again this is just to put everything in perspective like the full-health-coverage already being in place. It is not a big step like it would be in the USA.

Regulation 4 is about all players, 4.5 is about those who who receive material benefit. If a player receives 1 Euro, that's a material benefit, right? But here German law kicks in. Those 1 Euro (up to 2400 Euro per year) wouldn't be taxable under German law (Aufwandsentschädigung), so you can't put an health insurance based on that payment (not that it matters because your universal health care covers you whatever you do. And with whatever I mean whatever).

But you know in the end, I just wanted to show where some problems are in my opinion.
Maybe I am wrong and if so, it wouldn't matter as I have nothing to say in this dispute, will never and don't want to. I hope both parties finally find a solution for the good of rugby in Germany. The sooner the better.

But with basically the most unimportant game of the year coming up next saturday, I doubt we will see any changes or breakthroughs until then.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby dropkick » Mon, 12 Feb 2018, 16:38

RugbyLiebe wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:That's what regulation 4 is about. Teams paying all contracts. As you've said, the WRA does not employ these men as Athletes but as coaches. How many employers would grant men or women 12-16 weeks of leave? Very few in this country. Regulation 4 doesn't apply in this case.


No offence, but in the USA you are simply the worst employer rights bargainers the world has ever seen.
I have 6 weeks paid leave + this year 12 additional bank holidays which are luckily happening in 2018 during the normal week. Mandatory are 20 days when working in a 5-day-week, 24 for a 6-day-week. If you take unpaid leave, this holidays are not cut by a single day. If you are sick, not a single holiday is cut. I know nobody with under 20 holidays and I know nobody who wouldn't take those days.
.



Those holidays are not free though. I know Germans and they say there's more holidays in Germany but they have to pay a lot more taxes.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 12:25

Many Germans think this, but it is not true. Actually Germany has one of the lowest tax quotes in the EU. de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuerquote
We tend to mix up taxes and mandatory social security, unemployment insurance and health insurance and church taxes as everything is directly deducted from our paychecks every month.

But back to rugby. The DRV has released the squad for Georgia:

RK Heusenstamm: Gino Gennaro
RG Heidelberg: Paul Pfisterer, Carsten Lang, Robin Plümpe
SC Frankfurt 1880: Wynston Cameron-Dow, Mark Sztyndera, Senzo Ngubane, Jens Listmann, Hassan Rayan, Lukas Deichmann
SC Neuenheim: Paul Weiß
TSV Handschuhsheim: Marcus Bender, Christopher Korn, Felix Martel, Vincent Spies, Yassin Ayachi
Berlin Grizzlies: Sam Ramsay
TV Pforzheim: Oliver Paine
Hannover 78: Nicolas Müller, Pascal Fischer, Jan Piosik, Kain Rix
SC Germania List: Daniel Koch, Stefan Mau
VfR Döhren: Yasar Bauer
RK 03 Berlin: Falk Duwe
Sportfördergruppe der BW: Clemens von Grumbkow
Berliner RC: Jonathan Maaser, Michael Burisch
Cross Keys RFC (WAL): Luke Dyckhoff
Cahors (FRA): Gilles Valette
Racing Metro 92 (FRA): Zani Dembele
RC Strasbourg (FRA): Tim Menzel
Stade Rochelais (FRA): Eric Marks
RO Grasse (FRA): Jimmy Scholz
Aberdeen (SCO): Matthias Schosser

Zani Dembele is apparently a 20 year old German citizen who played U17, U18 and U19 for France.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby suofficer » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 12:44

No Preocanin?

Even if this team plays out of their skin whats your honest prediction for this game?

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 13:38

suofficer wrote:No Preocanin?

Even if this team plays out of their skin whats your honest prediction for this game?


This is basically the least important game this year. Even with our strongest squad we never even came close against Georgia. I expect a result similiar to the one against Romania.

What Germany really can play without the Wild guys is what we will see against Belgium, Spain and Russia.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby amz » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 13:48

RugbyLiebe wrote:What Germany really can play without the Wild guys is what we will see against Belgium, Spain and Russia.


Speaking about Wild, I heard HRK signed some Saffas and a new forwards coach. Is this true?

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Re: German rugby

Postby STMKY » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 13:52

And where are everyone else, do they boycott again?

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Re: German rugby

Postby amz » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 13:54

STMKY wrote:And where are everyone else, do they boycott again?


Without HRK players they probably focus on matches vs Spain, Russia and Belgium to avoid relegation so they didn't called the players just now.

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Re: German rugby

Postby STMKY » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 14:07

amz wrote:
STMKY wrote:And where are everyone else, do they boycott again?


Without HRK players they probably focus on matches vs Spain, Russia and Belgium to avoid relegation so they didn't called the players just now.

Let's hope that the Germans will expose their strongest squad against Spain! I am sure that justice will prevail.

olivier

Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 14:54

I don't catch talks about relegation. Belgium is 6 points behind Germany. They can't get them.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 14:55

olivier wrote:I don't catch talks about relegation. Belgium is 6 points behind Germany. They can't get them.

¿?

REC became a yearly tournament last season. Relegation is all played from scratch, that 6 point difference is only in terms of RWC qualifying process.

olivier

Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 15:01

suofficer wrote:No Preocanin?

Even if this team plays out of their skin whats your honest prediction for this game?

Georgia can score their first century ever. Their biggest margin ever is 98-3 against Czechia.

olivier

Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 15:04

Armchair Fan wrote:
olivier wrote:I don't catch talks about relegation. Belgium is 6 points behind Germany. They can't get them.

¿?

REC became a yearly tournament last season. Relegation is all played from scratch, that 6 point difference is only in terms of RWC qualifying process.

I forgot this. OMG, Germany will play in Belgium... Maybe DRV current leaders will finally step down before Portugal match...

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 15:11

I don't think they will need it. Game against Belgium will be close, but even Saturday's team could be a match for Belgians and we already know they will receive some reinforcements unavailable for the Cluj game. It's hard to be optimistic, I know it's agonic for German fans (they are make some of the same mistakes Spain did between 2011-2014 in terms of managing pro players and dealing with 7s) but they should avoid relegation.

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Re: German rugby

Postby GeoRugby » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 15:22

olivier wrote:
suofficer wrote:No Preocanin?

Even if this team plays out of their skin whats your honest prediction for this game?

Georgia can score their first century ever. Their biggest margin ever is 98-3 against Czechia.


I doubt it. Winning with bonus point should be the objective, but scoring century in Germany is unlikely. The first 10 min. of the game should show what to expect.

olivier

Re: German rugby

Postby olivier » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 15:26

GeoRugby wrote:
olivier wrote:
suofficer wrote:No Preocanin?

Even if this team plays out of their skin whats your honest prediction for this game?

Georgia can score their first century ever. Their biggest margin ever is 98-3 against Czechia.


I doubt it. Winning with bonus point should be the objective, but scoring century in Germany is unlikely. The first 10 min. of the game should show what to expect.

It would be very disappointed if they don't match Romania's score. The squad remains very weak. Valette and Scholz (if they really come) won't change anything.

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Re: German rugby

Postby frakturfreak » Tue, 13 Feb 2018, 20:47

olivier wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:
olivier wrote:I don't catch talks about relegation. Belgium is 6 points behind Germany. They can't get them.

¿?

REC became a yearly tournament last season. Relegation is all played from scratch, that 6 point difference is only in terms of RWC qualifying process.

I forgot this. OMG, Germany will play in Belgium... Maybe DRV current leaders will finally step down before Portugal match...


The president Klaus already did, allthough he cites anonymous threatening calls at work and not being able to this job in his free time under the current pressure and circumstances.

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