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German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby Gorbeh » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 12:51

I don't know the entire reasoning by the EPCR but would have loved to see HRK or Wild sue against the decision, as most Irish or British clubs are owned by the different branches and in the end by the union. Therefore, only because the "owner", in the case of HRK that isn't even true, is a private person not a union the integrity of the competition was at risk. I dare to say the EUGH would have ruled against said decision based on the open market.
The same problem continously arises with football in Germany and the 50+1 statute. Which most certainly will fall as soon as someone brings the matter to court.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 14:07

In 4 points how this went:

1. the ECPR warned Wild about the conflict of interest (heard that from many different sources)
2. The players were aware of this possible conflict (heard that from many different sources, too)
3. Wild probably wasn't willing to found the setup for longer or his management was acting extremely naive.
4. Then imho the most stupid thing came: the EPCR didn't try to build a bridge. I can understand Wild, I can understand the rules, but I cannot understand how the ECPR let this golden fish off the hook. I am quite sure, that if the EPCR wouldn't have disqualified the Heidelberger RK, Wild would have financed them for at least another year. Too much face to lose for him. So apart from whatever reasons, the only one to blame in the end is the EPCR, they've showed, they are the most short-sighted sports organization in the world.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby germanbullsfan » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 17:46

This so called Conflict of interest , in my opinion was a cheap construction with no real conflict potential . As Rugby Liebe mentioned EPCR ruined thze whole thing

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Re: German rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 17:51

RugbyLiebe wrote:In 4 points how this went:

1. the ECPR warned Wild about the conflict of interest (heard that from many different sources)
2. The players were aware of this possible conflict (heard that from many different sources, too)
3. Wild probably wasn't willing to found the setup for longer or his management was acting extremely naive.
4. Then imho the most stupid thing came: the EPCR didn't try to build a bridge. I can understand Wild, I can understand the rules, but I cannot understand how the ECPR let this golden fish off the hook. I am quite sure, that if the EPCR wouldn't have disqualified the Heidelberger RK, Wild would have financed them for at least another year. Too much face to lose for him. So apart from whatever reasons, the only one to blame in the end is the EPCR, they've showed, they are the most short-sighted sports organization in the world.


Didn’t Wild stop funding the club anyway so it ended up being a moot point? Or is there conflict because Capri Sun still sponsors them?

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 19:33

Sorry to be unclear here, he dissolved the Wild Rugby Academy, which had most players employed who were playing for the Heidelberger RK. He still sponsors the HRK, but compared to what he spent on the WRA that's peanuts (I don't know the sums).
Btw. he apparently pays Ford, so he has not totally left German rugby. Hence my doubts that he would have also dissolved the WRA if the HRK would have been allowed in the Challenge Cup. But off course we are only speculating here.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 20:13

RugbyLiebe wrote:Sorry to be unclear here, he dissolved the Wild Rugby Academy, which had most players employed who were playing for the Heidelberger RK. He still sponsors the HRK, but compared to what he spent on the WRA that's peanuts (I don't know the sums).
Btw. he apparently pays Ford, so he has not totally left German rugby. Hence my doubts that he would have also dissolved the WRA if the HRK would have been allowed in the Challenge Cup. But off course we are only speculating here.


I don't think he directly pays Ford, but the agreement of support that was negotiated between him and the new President of the DRV is extensive.

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Re: German rugby

Postby germanbullsfan » Tue, 16 Oct 2018, 05:01

As far as i can remember , Wild is willing to invest further with sufficent funds when the DRV finds one or two equally other investors of this calliber. So far nothing happend in that direction from the DRV . Which on the other means nothing because the DRVs PR is still below under par to say it nicely.

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Re: German rugby

Postby nick511 » Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 23:39

Just saw another article about Anton Segner, he's definitely caught the attention of the local news here, gives a good summary of how he got to where he is today, I think he's got a pretty good chance of making the All Blacks one day and definitely getting to Mitre 10 Cup level and then Super Rugby.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/107 ... ugby-dream

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Re: German rugby

Postby Tobar » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 00:00

Sucks to have a German player head off to the All Blacks who very clearly don’t need the help but if you had to make a choice between best team in the world and a team that just had a player strike then it’s not that tough to choose.

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Re: German rugby

Postby A_FlyingMegaKiwi » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 05:24

Are the German federation working at all to try convince Anton Segner to play for Germany instead?

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Re: German rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 09:40

What can they realistically offer him though?

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Re: German rugby

Postby germanbullsfan » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 11:51

:roll:
Last edited by germanbullsfan on Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 11:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: German rugby

Postby frakturfreak » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 11:55

Tobar wrote:Sucks to have a German player head off to the All Blacks who very clearly don’t need the help but if you had to make a choice between best team in the world and a team that just had a player strike then it’s not that tough to choose.


Try trolling elsewhere.

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Re: German rugby

Postby NedRugby » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 21:29

I don't see that as trolling. I would have said the same thing about Visser. It sucked that he chose Scotland over the Netherlands, but what could NL offer him? I don't blame him personally and he is seen as a bit of a hero in Dutch rugby circles, coming over to do the odd youth event and stuff. In some ways he has had a bigger impact on the profile of rugby here than he would have done if he'd stayed at home and played for NL.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Tobar » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 22:40

frakturfreak wrote:
Tobar wrote:Sucks to have a German player head off to the All Blacks who very clearly don’t need the help but if you had to make a choice between best team in the world and a team that just had a player strike then it’s not that tough to choose.


Try trolling elsewhere.


How is this trolling? I’m not trying to insult the German team but they did just have a player strike and the ABs are by far the best team in the world.

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Re: German rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 23:12

thatrugbyguy wrote:What can they realistically offer him though?

So he could become a Centurion for Germany...or be a one cap wonder chewed up and spit out for New Zealand...that national identity can be so easily discarded is one of the most annoying things to me when it comes to international sport.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Tobar » Sun, 21 Oct 2018, 01:32

I'm with you on the national eligibility....if it was up to me, rules would be changed to make it 7 years and citizens only for the national team. Allowing players to jump to another country they have no real affiliation with hurts the integrity of international rugby.

Now, given all that I realize that he's playing within the current rules in order to make a career out of this. If he caps for the All Blacks then he can stay in NZ and play Super Rugby but if he caps for Germany then his Super Rugby career is over before it starts. Now, the opposite could happen like you say and he gets 1 cap and never gets selected again, meanwhile he could've been capped as a German and play in France and have a great career. But of course no guarantees with that.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 21 Oct 2018, 08:43

He's literally a teenager, get a grip people.

I just hope he doesn't get cap tied on a rubbishy 7s event, if he's getting cap tied I hope its for a proper All Blacks cap.

He could always use the 7s loophole if he only got a few caps anyway.

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Re: German rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 21 Oct 2018, 09:59

TheStroBro wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:What can they realistically offer him though?

So he could become a Centurion for Germany...or be a one cap wonder chewed up and spit out for New Zealand...that national identity can be so easily discarded is one of the most annoying things to me when it comes to international sport.


The reality is the All Black jersey is far more valuable than the German one. If he's really that skilled of course it would be beneficial for the whole nation to take what he learns back to Germany to be an instant starter and future captain for the national team. But until Germany gets to the stage of playing in front of 50,000 fans and the players getting paid hundred of thousands of Euros a year trying out for the All Blacks is the logical choice.

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Re: German rugby

Postby frakturfreak » Sun, 21 Oct 2018, 19:42

Tobar wrote:
frakturfreak wrote:
Tobar wrote:Sucks to have a German player head off to the All Blacks who very clearly don’t need the help but if you had to make a choice between best team in the world and a team that just had a player strike then it’s not that tough to choose.


Try trolling elsewhere.


How is this trolling? I’m not trying to insult the German team but they did just have a player strike and the ABs are by far the best team in the world.


It was the “but if … it’s not tough to choose” sentence structure. Money shouldn’t be everything. As it was said before, he maybe could play 2 games for the All Blacks or win plenty of caps for Germany.

Also why would his super rugby career be over, if he were capped for Germany? Do they have restrictions on the number of foreign players?

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Re: German rugby

Postby Immenso » Sun, 21 Oct 2018, 20:04

sk 88 wrote:He's literally a teenager, get a grip people.

I just hope he doesn't get cap tied on a rubbishy 7s event, if he's getting cap tied I hope its for a proper All Blacks cap.

He could always use the 7s loophole if he only got a few caps anyway.

I doubt he would go down the 7s route with nz.

Someone in his position, he wouldn't be nz qualified until 5 years after he turns 18, so when he is 23.

7s, in nz, is for specialists or youngsters. By the time someone like him is 23 and trying to forge a pro career as a loose forward, he wouldn't be the correct body size for 7s anymore. It can be a step on the path, like Ardie Savea or Akira Ioane, but something which is done when they're about 19, 20 years old and not bulked up yet

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Re: German rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 21 Oct 2018, 22:51

Immenso wrote:
sk 88 wrote:He's literally a teenager, get a grip people.

I just hope he doesn't get cap tied on a rubbishy 7s event, if he's getting cap tied I hope its for a proper All Blacks cap.

He could always use the 7s loophole if he only got a few caps anyway.

I doubt he would go down the 7s route with nz.

Someone in his position, he wouldn't be nz qualified until 5 years after he turns 18, so when he is 23.

7s, in nz, is for specialists or youngsters. By the time someone like him is 23 and trying to forge a pro career as a loose forward, he wouldn't be the correct body size for 7s anymore. It can be a step on the path, like Ardie Savea or Akira Ioane, but something which is done when they're about 19, 20 years old and not bulked up yet


That's not what he meant. He said that if he got capped by the ABs he could always go home and play through the 7s loophole to re-qualify for Germany.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Immenso » Sun, 21 Oct 2018, 23:39

TheStroBro wrote:
Immenso wrote:
sk 88 wrote:He's literally a teenager, get a grip people.

I just hope he doesn't get cap tied on a rubbishy 7s event, if he's getting cap tied I hope its for a proper All Blacks cap.

He could always use the 7s loophole if he only got a few caps anyway.

I doubt he would go down the 7s route with nz.

Someone in his position, he wouldn't be nz qualified until 5 years after he turns 18, so when he is 23.

7s, in nz, is for specialists or youngsters. By the time someone like him is 23 and trying to forge a pro career as a loose forward, he wouldn't be the correct body size for 7s anymore. It can be a step on the path, like Ardie Savea or Akira Ioane, but something which is done when they're about 19, 20 years old and not bulked up yet


That's not what he meant. He said that if he got capped by the ABs he could always go home and play through the 7s loophole to re-qualify for Germany.

That's not the part I was responding to.

"I just hope he doesn't get cap tied on a rubbishy 7s event,"

Eg like David Smith.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 00:22

frakturfreak wrote:
Tobar wrote:
frakturfreak wrote:
Tobar wrote:Sucks to have a German player head off to the All Blacks who very clearly don’t need the help but if you had to make a choice between best team in the world and a team that just had a player strike then it’s not that tough to choose.


Try trolling elsewhere.


How is this trolling? I’m not trying to insult the German team but they did just have a player strike and the ABs are by far the best team in the world.


It was the “but if … it’s not tough to choose” sentence structure. Money shouldn’t be everything. As it was said before, he maybe could play 2 games for the All Blacks or win plenty of caps for Germany.

Also why would his super rugby career be over, if he were capped for Germany? Do they have restrictions on the number of foreign players?


You can disagree with what I said and still realize it’s not trolling. And yes, the NZ Super Rugby teams in particular are very strict with non-NZ eligible players.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 07:01

Immenso wrote:
sk 88 wrote:He's literally a teenager, get a grip people.

I just hope he doesn't get cap tied on a rubbishy 7s event, if he's getting cap tied I hope its for a proper All Blacks cap.

He could always use the 7s loophole if he only got a few caps anyway.

I doubt he would go down the 7s route with nz.

Someone in his position, he wouldn't be nz qualified until 5 years after he turns 18, so when he is 23.

7s, in nz, is for specialists or youngsters. By the time someone like him is 23 and trying to forge a pro career as a loose forward, he wouldn't be the correct body size for 7s anymore. It can be a step on the path, like Ardie Savea or Akira Ioane, but something which is done when they're about 19, 20 years old and not bulked up yet


Why?

He lives in NZ full time from what I can gather in these news reports, his clock started ticking when he moved over which is also in the 3 year period. Surely?

Given that though I do agree with the later point.

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