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German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 07:25

He is 16. Plenty of years until he might or might not be in such a position.
This story makes a lot of waves within German youth rugby atm. Whoever he chooses playing for in 5 years time, when this might really become a thing, doesn't really matter, as this already inspires others to do a year abroad in NZ to play rugby.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Immenso » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 08:04

sk 88 wrote:
Immenso wrote:
sk 88 wrote:He's literally a teenager, get a grip people.

I just hope he doesn't get cap tied on a rubbishy 7s event, if he's getting cap tied I hope its for a proper All Blacks cap.

He could always use the 7s loophole if he only got a few caps anyway.

I doubt he would go down the 7s route with nz.

Someone in his position, he wouldn't be nz qualified until 5 years after he turns 18, so when he is 23.

7s, in nz, is for specialists or youngsters. By the time someone like him is 23 and trying to forge a pro career as a loose forward, he wouldn't be the correct body size for 7s anymore. It can be a step on the path, like Ardie Savea or Akira Ioane, but something which is done when they're about 19, 20 years old and not bulked up yet


Why?

He lives in NZ full time from what I can gather in these news reports, his clock started ticking when he moved over which is also in the 3 year period. Surely?

Given that though I do agree with the later point.


Because hes under 18 and nz is not his family residence. Hes boarding at school (or maybe being billeted by a family). His family are back in Germany.

If you look at WR rules, there's an explanation on what you could probably describe as unaccompanied minors.

His time under 18 living in a country not his family home doesn't count towards residence. His time would start after he leaves school ( if he stays) and it would be 5 years from then with extended residency rules.

For example Sitiveni Sivivatu spent 3 years at Wesley College on scholarship, he then had to spend another 3 years in nz after he left school before he was nz eligible. Sivi actually lived in nz for 6 years before he was eligible.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 09:01

As the rule is written I doubt nobody would argue there isn't a close and credible link between the player and NZ:
As far as students are concerned, particularly those that are not financially independent, being resident, as a full time student, in another country, is likely to be considered as a series of temporary absences from the parental home. It is anticipated that in the majority of cases involving students the parental home is likely to continue to constitute the student’s permanent and primary home. Accordingly, attendance at college/university in such circumstances is unlikely to break a Player’s consecutive period of Residence. However, as in all matters of eligibility, the overriding concern of the Regulations Committee in assessing any such case will be to ensure that there remains a close, credible and established link with the country in which the Player claims to have retained his primary and permanent home. There could be circumstances in which a student living in another country may be deemed to have interrupted his Residency period.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 11:02

Immenso wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
Immenso wrote:
sk 88 wrote:He's literally a teenager, get a grip people.

I just hope he doesn't get cap tied on a rubbishy 7s event, if he's getting cap tied I hope its for a proper All Blacks cap.

He could always use the 7s loophole if he only got a few caps anyway.

I doubt he would go down the 7s route with nz.

Someone in his position, he wouldn't be nz qualified until 5 years after he turns 18, so when he is 23.

7s, in nz, is for specialists or youngsters. By the time someone like him is 23 and trying to forge a pro career as a loose forward, he wouldn't be the correct body size for 7s anymore. It can be a step on the path, like Ardie Savea or Akira Ioane, but something which is done when they're about 19, 20 years old and not bulked up yet


Why?

He lives in NZ full time from what I can gather in these news reports, his clock started ticking when he moved over which is also in the 3 year period. Surely?

Given that though I do agree with the later point.


Because hes under 18 and nz is not his family residence. Hes boarding at school (or maybe being billeted by a family). His family are back in Germany.

If you look at WR rules, there's an explanation on what you could probably describe as unaccompanied minors.

His time under 18 living in a country not his family home doesn't count towards residence. His time would start after he leaves school ( if he stays) and it would be 5 years from then with extended residency rules.

For example Sitiveni Sivivatu spent 3 years at Wesley College on scholarship, he then had to spend another 3 years in nz after he left school before he was nz eligible. Sivi actually lived in nz for 6 years before he was eligible.



Ah okay,

so as I understand it that regulation is stop time spent by Welsh, Scottish & Irish players at English boarding schools counting as "residency".

It certainly could apply in this case, but also could not, and if he continues his hopeful development path it may become an issue in a few years. As Rugby Liebe says it looks like a good thing in the short run anyway as it certainly shows kids in Germany are at the required standard if they put themselves into high quality environments and work hard.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 11:45

sk 88 wrote:so as I understand it that regulation is stop time spent by Welsh, Scottish & Irish players at English boarding schools counting as "residency".


Who could have thought that a rule was only made up for private school boys. :lol:
Actually I think we have our own cases like this. Abroad-born Zani Dembele has parents living in Germany (=> his household there), while he's trying his luck in France.

Thanks for the great input, I honestly thought that the 3-year-rule was applied to those kids as well.

The more I know the more I think, that the rules need to change to grandparents, parents, own birthplace and after that citizenship only. All of those can be simply proven by an official document, like passports of your ancestors or yourself. If you play a senior test match, you are capped. This would also make the Olympic loophole disappear. All other cases are simply to complicated in the long run.
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Tue, 23 Oct 2018, 07:21, edited 1 time in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Blurandski » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 13:54

RugbyLiebe wrote:
sk 88 wrote:so as I understand it that regulation is stop time spent by Welsh, Scottish & Irish players at English boarding schools counting as "residency".


Who could have thought that a rule was only made up for private school boys. :lol:
Actually I think we have our own cases like this. Abroad-born Zani Dembele has parents living in Germany (=> his household there), while he's trying his luck in France.

Thanks for the great input, I honestly thought that the 3-year-rule was applied to those kids as well.

The more I know thing, that the rules need to change to grandparents, parents, own birthplace and after that citizenship only. All of those can be simply proven by an official document, like passports of your ancestors or yourself. If you play a senior test match, you are capped. This would also make the Olympic loophole disappear. All other cases are simply to complicated in the long run.


However then countries like the UAE can just buy players and give them a passport.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Gorbeh » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 14:10

Blurandski wrote:
However then countries like the UAE can just buy players and give them a passport.


They could, yes. But they could also do this in Association Football for example. Never seen Qatar or UAE at a World Cup. Citizenship isn't so easily obtained and buying a good national side not as easily done as many assume. I dare to say it would even hinder T1 countries sometimes even more, and would favour small countries like Fiji etc. more often.

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Re: German rugby

Postby NedRugby » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 19:31

Gorbeh wrote:Citizenship isn't so easily obtained and buying a good national side not as easily done as many assume.


I'm not sure this is true although it probably depends on the sport and the country. Certainly Kenyan runners have popped up representing all sorts of countries in athletics. And I think handball has its problems too. https://www.tuko.co.ke/172509-kenya-ath ... mpics.html

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Re: German rugby

Postby Immenso » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 21:28

Armchair Fan wrote:As the rule is written I doubt nobody would argue there isn't a close and credible link between the player and NZ:
As far as students are concerned, particularly those that are not financially independent, being resident, as a full time student, in another country, is likely to be considered as a series of temporary absences from the parental home. It is anticipated that in the majority of cases involving students the parental home is likely to continue to constitute the student’s permanent and primary home. Accordingly, attendance at college/university in such circumstances is unlikely to break a Player’s consecutive period of Residence. However, as in all matters of eligibility, the overriding concern of the Regulations Committee in assessing any such case will be to ensure that there remains a close, credible and established link with the country in which the Player claims to have retained his primary and permanent home. There could be circumstances in which a student living in another country may be deemed to have interrupted his Residency period.

I think that paragraph is quite confusingly written.

Everything written after the word "Accordingly" is about explaining retaining residency at the parental home (I'd suggest for situations where the parental home is not the country of birth of the player). So is trying to account for more complicated situations than someone like Segner or Sivivatu or Moriarty etc.

E,g, Lets say John Fijian joins the British Army and moves from Fiji to live in an Army Base in Wales - and John has a 14 year old son. As Wales is now the family home; the 14 year old's residency period starts ticking over. The son is good at rugby and at age 16 gets a scholarship over the border in England at Hartpury College. This is not considered to break the player’s consecutive period of Residence in Wales and by age 19 the son would be Welsh qualified.

But if Dad was transferred from the Welsh base to a British base in Brunei after 2 years and the rest of his family also move to Brunei, then "close, credible and established link with the country in which the Player claims to have retained his primary and permanent home" would probably be judged as being broken.

With the 3 year rule, none of this particularly mattered. But with the 5 year rule it makes a real difference. Particularly with 7s captures, which in NZ is sometimes a pathway for young men to get professional salaries before their good enough to reach Super Rugby level, with some of them getting nation-tied in the process (David Smith, Soseni Anesi etc).

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Re: German rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 22:47

Immenso wrote:
Everything written after the word "Accordingly" is about explaining retaining residency at the parental home (I'd suggest for situations where the parental home is not the country of birth of the player). So is trying to account for more complicated situations than someone like Segner or Sivivatu or Moriarty etc.

E,g, Lets say John Fijian joins the British Army and moves from Fiji to live in an Army Base in Wales - and John has a 14 year old son. As Wales is now the family home; the 14 year old's residency period starts ticking over. The son is good at rugby and at age 16 gets a scholarship over the border in England at Hartpury College. This is not considered to break the player’s consecutive period of Residence in Wales and by age 19 the son would be Welsh qualified.

But if Dad was transferred from the Welsh base to a British base in Brunei after 2 years and the rest of his family also move to Brunei, then "close, credible and established link with the country in which the Player claims to have retained his primary and permanent home" would probably be judged as being broken.

With the 3 year rule, none of this particularly mattered. But with the 5 year rule it makes a real difference. Particularly with 7s captures, which in NZ is sometimes a pathway for young men to get professional salaries before their good enough to reach Super Rugby level, with some of them getting nation-tied in the process (David Smith, Soseni Anesi etc).


It depends, in the American Army...overseas bases are considered sovereign territory.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 23 Oct 2018, 07:24

Immenso wrote:Everything written after the word "Accordingly" is about explaining retaining residency at the parental home (I'd suggest for situations where the parental home is not the country of birth of the player).


German national team player Zani Dembele. Born in Burkina Faso, moved to Germany when he was 5 or 6. Part of the Racing Metro Academy. Funwise the closest club to his home was in France so he grew up in Germany, but only ever played in France.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Fri, 02 Nov 2018, 07:57

Kameraden | Mates

POPSPORT.GE -- site that is too new to rugby coverage --
recently reported that German NT adopted BLACK EAGLES as their nick

And that they will print that nick on jersey front side
in language of an opponent -- thus showing respect towards them

How is this spelled in Deutsch? Went googling and got

Schwarze Adler | შავი არწივები | Чёрные орлы | Vulturi negri | A'guilas negras | Aigles noirs | Zwarte adelaars

Is this true? If yes, please give me a source

:::

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Re: German rugby

Postby Gorbeh » Fri, 02 Nov 2018, 08:07

The literal translation is Schwarze Adler, yes. Here is the link to the official press release by the DRV: https://www.rugby-verband.de/deutsche-15er-maenner-werden-zu-schwarzen-adlern/?fbclid=IwAR1lC4eB7lDKoM7E4QEeUQ_9yYoBqFmN6SNCG7gB3MASnnbvp1pxsUedl9A

The wish for a teamname (as the 7s team is called Wolfpack) came from inside the team according to the article. The team name "Schwarze Adler" will be changed and translated for every game to the language of the opponent to pay respect and homage to their culture and background (Again so says the article). The logo is meant to represent a modernised version of the national emblem (the black federal eagle on yellow/gold), with which the teams started previously (not with the DRV-logo). If the logo will be worn on the jerseys or not I cannot say.

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Re: German rugby

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Fri, 02 Nov 2018, 08:33

Vielen Dank

I see it was 1 NOV release and POPSPORT.GE noticed it ASAP :!:


pay respect and homage to their culture and background


That's GREAT :!: The WORLD is so NICE for its VARIETY :!:

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Re: German rugby

Postby NedRugby » Fri, 02 Nov 2018, 20:53

Great idea, especially the translation concept.

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Re: German rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 02 Nov 2018, 22:56

I'm not sure the point of the translation thing. France are called Les Bleus, Italy are called the Azzuri, Uruguay are called Los Teros. You're just going to cause confusion changing the team nickname for every language. It's a branding nightmare. How is the team suppose to make any kind of name for itself if no-one knows what to call them?

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Re: German rugby

Postby Masochist » Sat, 03 Nov 2018, 02:25

thatrugbyguy wrote:I'm not sure the point of the translation thing. France are called Les Bleus, Italy are called the Azzuri, Uruguay are called Los Teros. You're just going to cause confusion changing the team nickname for every language. It's a branding nightmare. How is the team suppose to make any kind of name for itself if no-one knows what to call them?

Japan are the Brave Blossoms and Romania the Oaks. Translating to English makes some sense, but yeah, translating to every opponents language seems too much.

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Re: German rugby

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sat, 03 Nov 2018, 07:57

I SUPPORT TRANSLATING

For us -- Georgian rugby folks

Romania are both MUKHEBI and STEJARI but never OAKS
Russia DATVEBI and MEDVEDI - but not BEARS
Spain LOMEBI and LEONES - not LIONS

Now Germany will be
SHAVI ARTSIVEBI and SCHWARZE ADLER - not BLACK EAGLES

BTW, we are NOT english speaking nation - we prefer what we ARE

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Re: German rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 03 Nov 2018, 08:34

Masochist wrote:Japan are the Brave Blossoms and Romania the Oaks. Translating to English makes some sense, but yeah, translating to every opponents language seems too much.


Brazil are Os Tupis, Portugal are Os Lobos, Spain are Los Leones, Georgia are the Lelos.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 03 Nov 2018, 09:12

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:I SUPPORT TRANSLATING

For us -- Georgian rugby folks

Romania are both MUKHEBI and STEJARI but never OAKS
Russia DATVEBI and MEDVEDI - but not BEARS
Spain LOMEBI and LEONES - not LIONS

Now Germany will be
SHAVI ARTSIVEBI and SCHWARZE ADLER - not BLACK EAGLES

BTW, we are NOT english speaking nation - we prefer what we ARE

You would be more than welcome here. We don't only translate official nicknames but we make up new ones based on their emblems. England is "el XV de la Rosa" (rose), Scotland is "el XV del Cardo" (thistle), France is "el XV del Gallo"... OK, and Romania aren't Oaks but "el XV del Roble" :D

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Re: German rugby

Postby Sables4EVA » Sun, 04 Nov 2018, 05:59

I think its just a measure of respect for someone culture to use the teams home language when refering to the nickname. I know English speakers are the worst for translating nicknames for ease of use but it also means that some teams nicknames can be used to indicate difference, for example Bristol and Russia (I am sure there are more Bear nicknamed teams but those are the main 2 I can think of now).

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sun, 04 Nov 2018, 07:35

After thinking about this for a while, I have to say that this is a stupid idea. Nearly nobody knows the sport or even the national team in Germany. Why waste energy and resources to use an unknown name in other languages? What's the point?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 04 Nov 2018, 10:02

How about just as a bad idea for branding reasons?

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Re: German rugby

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sun, 04 Nov 2018, 10:08

Why waste energy and resources


REALLY :?:

Just name color and size and I'll post here GEO lettering

შავი არწივები

In return you will have won hearts of our spectators
by showing respect to our alphabet --

unlike performing haka | cibi etc etc
which many of us see as an insult to our caucasian traditions

:::

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Re: German rugby

Postby Masochist » Sun, 04 Nov 2018, 13:30

Thinking about this, I wonder if anyone at DRV thought about countries having two or more official languages. You either discriminate against part of the country by only choosing one language or have a mess with multiple translations (espacially if we'd play South Africa at the World Cup).

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