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German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby Raven » Thu, 14 Feb 2019, 15:45

Presumably Armstrong is still undecided on whether his international career is over or not, there were some rumours about that a few months ago. But Tim Menzel has been overshadowed by him quite a long time and has been playing at Espoir and ProD2 level for quite a while, so I don´t think it´s a bad idea to give him more playing time at 9. France 2023 is quite far away and Germany has to build a squad.

I mentioned some time ago that I found strange that at least 3 guys between 2.Bl and even RL where being called up for the national team, and Wynston Cameron-Dow is a proof of how a level downgrade can affect your game. I remember seeing him when Germany played Brazil and USA in 2017 and he showed he could put up his hand to take a starting position when both Clemens von Grumbkow and Carlos Soteras Merz where involved with 7s. Today he´s nothing but the shadow of that, and his performance in Marseille and against Belgium (specially the former) is enough proof.

Parkinson´s absence of the Romania game is not a thing to make a big fuss about, released or not by 1880, he´s been available (when not injured) for almost every test for the last what, 7 years? The guy also needs a break.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 14 Feb 2019, 15:51

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Bogdan_DC wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Update:
Parkinson is out, because he wasn't released by Frankfurt 1880 as this game collides with his job as a youth coach for the club.

That sounds so Romanian. After all maybe Germany &Romania are not so different except few thousands of autobahn.


But those thousands make a huge difference if you set up a game in Botosani a place in the middle of nowhere between Moldava and the Ukraine like Romania did :D
How the hell do you actually get there?


By plane. 30km distance from Suceava Airport.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Raven » Fri, 22 Feb 2019, 14:59

I´ll take a bit of a time out with the national team thread and jump to the German League; I´m a bit confused as the RL West Play Off pools have been unveiled a few weeks ago and again there´s no (logical) clear path -at least for me- for the promotion to 2.BL West. I think it is about time that the DRV would

In the RL West there are 3 pools, one of 7 and two of 6 teams; the playoffs sound pretty normal 1st and 2nd of each pool in the Cup, 3rd and 4th on the Plate and 5th and 6th going for the Bowl. 7th team in Westfalen won´t get fixtures after April but I guess that´s the way it goes.

Now, after playing 2 rounds in your RL West Group, you end up in the 1st or 2nd place, to then be feeded in a Play Off round with the other 2 pools, all playing each other once. What happens then? is the 1st placed team of this pool to play the 1st team from Hessen in another PlayOff? (Hessen 1st round or full tournament finishes in March which means they will have to schedule the entire second round until from March until June, and play the play offs in July, or won´t play official games from march until July?)

I may be overcomplicating things, wouldn´t be the first time :D :lol:

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Re: German rugby

Postby Masochist » Fri, 22 Feb 2019, 16:26

Raven wrote:Now, after playing 2 rounds in your RL West Group, you end up in the 1st or 2nd place, to then be feeded in a Play Off round with the other 2 pools, all playing each other once. What happens then? is the 1st placed team of this pool to play the 1st team from Hessen in another PlayOff? (Hessen 1st round or full tournament finishes in March which means they will have to schedule the entire second round until from March until June, and play the play offs in July, or won´t play official games from march until July?)

I may be overcomplicating things, wouldn´t be the first time :D :lol:

To my understanding there will be two "Aufstiegsanwärter" (1st of West and Hessen). The way promotion is played will depend on the number of free spots, but yes, most likely a play-off between those teams. Idk about Hessen, but playing a second leg would be possible and the normal thing to do.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Franky » Fri, 22 Feb 2019, 18:54

Who's going to win the top division? Does the top division impact the lower leagues at all with multiple teams needed etc? Where's the talented young players in the country playing?

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Re: German rugby

Postby Werner » Fri, 22 Feb 2019, 23:31

Masochist wrote:
Raven wrote:Now, after playing 2 rounds in your RL West Group, you end up in the 1st or 2nd place, to then be feeded in a Play Off round with the other 2 pools, all playing each other once. What happens then? is the 1st placed team of this pool to play the 1st team from Hessen in another PlayOff? (Hessen 1st round or full tournament finishes in March which means they will have to schedule the entire second round until from March until June, and play the play offs in July, or won´t play official games from march until July?)

I may be overcomplicating things, wouldn´t be the first time :D :lol:

To my understanding there will be two "Aufstiegsanwärter" (1st of West and Hessen). The way promotion is played will depend on the number of free spots, but yes, most likely a play-off between those teams. PIdk about Hessen, but playing a second leg would be possible and the normal thing to do.
Yes, That’s the way it is. Hessen will play a second leg where they split the top teams in one division and the lower teams in a second one. 1st West and 1st Hessen will then play play-offs home and away if there is only one place for promotion to Second Bundesliga Division West. Dates for these matches have been communicated in the DRV calendar.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Caledor » Tue, 26 Feb 2019, 08:25

I am wondering what confusing team selection Germany will put out for the game against Russia and how many points they will have Russia throw past them :cry:

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Re: German rugby

Postby Thomas » Tue, 26 Feb 2019, 10:30

When does the German Club season run, is it like the T1 Nations? September to May?

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 26 Feb 2019, 10:40

Wonder no more: The German 30 men squad.

Image

Hilsenbeck was finally released by his club this time. Coetzee is back after a head injury. Also Oltmann should have recovered from his minor injury, but we hoped about that two weeks ago as well.
Not in the squad: Armstrong, Aounallah, Parkinson, Poppmeier.

So we should be finally have a competitive back line. Big problem remains the 2nd row

http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/9762/37/
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 26 Feb 2019, 10:48

Thomas wrote:When does the German Club season run, is it like the T1 Nations? September to May?


Yeah, but you can't play from december until March because of the winter (There are also at least two-month winter breaks in amateur soccer and were even in pro soccer until one or two decades ago). In Munich i.e. we had -1 °C this morning (will rise to 13 °C today though).

So there were no regular club games since november 10th (three rearranged games in the South/West aside) and the leagues are only back on at March 23rd. The final is June 15th.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 26 Feb 2019, 11:05

Franky wrote:Who's going to win the top division? Does the top division impact the lower leagues at all with multiple teams needed etc? Where's the talented young players in the country playing?


You can have a look yourself about the German leagues system and the results on this great page http://www.rugbyweb.de

This year 1880 Frankfurt should be the favourite, but you never know.
The Bundesliga is split into South/West and North/East. SW is dominating so much, that the last 13 championship were not only won by one of those SW-clubs, but the runner-up was also from the SW.
The talented young players do normally play in Heidelberg and Hannover, the German rugby-hubs for up to 150 years now. Berlin and Frankfurt are catching up though. Especially Frankfurt 1880 has a youth system that produces players which beat British age-grade-teams every year. Heidelberg has the benefit of having three first division and two second division clubs in a city of just 156k. Hannover has two first div. and three 2nd div. clubs, Berlin three first div. and two second div. clubs.

2nd teams are normally (with some exceptions in the four 2nd divisons) found in the third divisions.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby JamesWales » Tue, 26 Feb 2019, 12:20

What sort of attendances do the teams get in the German league?

I know we aren’t talking big numbers, or even anything comparable to Spain, Georgia, Russia etc.

But are we looking at crowds of 50-100 people, or 300-400?

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 26 Feb 2019, 15:00

JamesWales wrote:What sort of attendances do the teams get in the German league?
I know we aren’t talking big numbers, or even anything comparable to Spain, Georgia, Russia etc.
But are we looking at crowds of 50-100 people, or 300-400?


No idea about the other nations' numbers, but I don't think anyone in the 1. Bundesliga has an average attendance of over 300. Rugby never took off in Germany because of the completely amateurism until 1995.

To understand a German mindset, you must understand five things.
1) The middle class is very big in our society, our former nobility is nothing more than an obscure and laughable past. Something like a "house of lords" would never be possible in modern Germany.
2) Our upper class made sure for a lot of decades, that they act more like they were middle class.
3) The common reception is, that private schools are only there for the rich brats, that were simply not smart enough to make it in the regular public school system.
4) Our schools only have rudimentary PE, about 2-3 school hours per week, where you see a lot of different sports, but only rudimentary details of it. If you favour and want to specialize in a sport, you do it in a club.
5) Lets say Germans have a weak spot for rules. If nobody is allowed to be paid, we normally stick to that rule.

This leads to the direct effects of amateurism
a) It is really tough to organize a club if you are not allowed to pay anyone still actively playing.
b) Therefore Germany didn't have any reasonable growth after the promising first founding era in the 1870ies-1910ies. It didn't help, that German rugby international players had the highest toll of all nations in the WWI (must have a look up which British rugby book I read this number in)
c) instead of growing the game further, they saw everexpanding soccer, which paid their players nearly from the beginning and even converted a lot of rugby clubs
d) apart from the games against France the ongoing refusal of all Home Nations to play their first men's international against a German XV side didn't really help. Not enough rivalries, create not enough growth.
e) the clubs stayed within their own, tried to keep what they have, but there were only rarely new clubs founded.
f) don't ever believe the fairy tale of Nazis against rugby, they even had a SS team in Hamburg rugby. The Nazis liked rugby, they especially loved the amateurism of it and saw it very suited to let their soldiers play it.

So why did I even bring this up? When the amateur era ended, the clubs have been in a cocoon for years. They simply need to learn how to market rugby. It didn't help that some clubs thought big in the late 1990ies and early 2000s and it didn't work out for them. Hannover is an example, where a lot of clubs got into financial toruble. There they only slowly realized, that you shouldn't forget to set a focus on grassroots for long-term success. What helps in the recent years is that thanks to the internet you can finally see rugby footage. Before that it was all crickets. An anecdote I always tell is, that more people ask me "if rugby is the sport with the helmet?" (aka American football). Rugby is totally unknown to a large part of German society.

I think what really helped was the Olympics and that you can see the World Cup on free-to-air-tv. Rugby is slowly growing, but it is up to the individual clubs to grow AND to create rivalries within Germany which are interesting for people to watch them. Also we need to try to play in better grounds, not grounds a 9th-division-soccer-club would also use. But foremost we need way more kids to play the game. And if we do that and the clubs understand that marketing is also important and needed long-term, one day, we will have better attendances.

Sorry for the long post to a short question, but I kind of was in the mood for it ;)
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Wed, 27 Feb 2019, 07:41, edited 1 time in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby 4N » Tue, 26 Feb 2019, 15:16

That’s a great post, very informative!

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Re: German rugby

Postby Franky » Wed, 27 Feb 2019, 11:50

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Franky wrote:Who's going to win the top division? Does the top division impact the lower leagues at all with multiple teams needed etc? Where's the talented young players in the country playing?


You can have a look yourself about the German leagues system and the results on this great page http://www.rugbyweb.de

This year 1880 Frankfurt should be the favourite, but you never know.
The Bundesliga is split into South/West and North/East. SW is dominating so much, that the last 13 championship were not only won by one of those SW-clubs, but the runner-up was also from the SW.
The talented young players do normally play in Heidelberg and Hannover, the German rugby-hubs for up to 150 years now. Berlin and Frankfurt are catching up though. Especially Frankfurt 1880 has a youth system that produces players which beat British age-grade-teams every year. Heidelberg has the benefit of having three first division and two second division clubs in a city of just 156k. Hannover has two first div. and three 2nd div. clubs, Berlin three first div. and two second div. clubs.

2nd teams are normally (with some exceptions in the four 2nd divisons) found in the third divisions.


thats a cool website, shows everything. Why has the SW dominated so much? There's loads of offers for players to come and play in germany, where has the best coaching?

How does heidelberg compete against frankfurt when the populations are so different.

Also how does the standard compare to spanish 1st or 2nd division?

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German rugby in turmoil

Postby chestnut » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 09:15

The REC campaign was catastrophic in all aspects.
Travel, camps, player management, organisation, representation. Versus Georgia, Germany played with 8 props. The squad for each match was given to the coaches by the DRV Director of Sport who is fully responsible for the fact that there was no sufficient depth in locks and back row players for that team in all 5 matches. People say he is only looking after the men 7’s program

There are players and coaches in the union who are waiting for 6 months and more for getting their expenses reimbursed they had, while travellig to camps or matches.

The steering committee of he DRV under his last summer new elected president, appointed a new paid chairman for 12.000 € monthly. That person does not speak german, is living in London and was the mental coach in the last REC campaign.

Rumors say that World Rugby has stopped their financial support of Germany, because it is not clear where money has been exactly spend.

Financial experts are judging the debt in the DRV till on 900.000,-

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Re: German rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 01:18

We need a new direction for Germany. The progress they've made over the last 10 years can't be allowed to go to waste.

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Re: German rugby in turmoil

Postby CM » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 21:51

chestnut wrote:The REC campaign was catastrophic in all aspects.
Travel, camps, player management, organisation, representation. Versus Georgia, Germany played with 8 props. The squad for each match was given to the coaches by the DRV Director of Sport who is fully responsible for the fact that there was no sufficient depth in locks and back row players for that team in all 5 matches. People say he is only looking after the men 7’s program

There are players and coaches in the union who are waiting for 6 months and more for getting their expenses reimbursed they had, while travellig to camps or matches.

The steering committee of he DRV under his last summer new elected president, appointed a new paid chairman for 12.000 € monthly. That person does not speak german, is living in London and was the mental coach in the last REC campaign.

Rumors say that World Rugby has stopped their financial support of Germany, because it is not clear where money has been exactly spend.

Financial experts are judging the debt in the DRV till on 900.000,-


As far as I have heard, mainly the Rugby Marketing GmbH is in debt, not necessarily the DRV itself.

Having a professional chair is one of the consequences of the last structural reforms and will hopefully help in the long term.

And some of the squad were a bit weird, somebody seems to like props a lot.

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Re: German rugby

Postby datodato » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 12:40

12000 bucks a month? Is that true? Ridiculous! Sounds stupid.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 13:38

For rugby in a Tier 3 union, it is. For a CEO in Germany I don't think so.

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Re: German rugby

Postby oldprussians » Tue, 26 Mar 2019, 16:44

So quick Question.

De is now relegated?

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Re: German rugby

Postby suofficer » Tue, 26 Mar 2019, 17:06

No still play off against Portugal on Jun1st

who is this CEO and how do i get that job? i think think the president of FPR will get a bad of olives per year.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 15:41

For the first time in history the All Blacks will play on German soil this year.

The teams of the Oktoberfest 7s 2019 (28th and 19th of September in Munich Olympiastadion) were announced today.

http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/9803/38/

Teams: Germany, New Zealand, Australia, Fiji, France, England, South Africa and the USA.

I don't know yet what the games will look like with 8 teams, but that's what I call a lineup with the best 6 teams in the World Sevens Series ranking.
Really looking forward to it!
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Raven » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 15:56

RugbyLiebe wrote:For the first time in history the All Blacks will play on German soil this year.

The teams of the Oktoberfest 7s 2019 (28th and 19th of September in Munich Olympiastadion) were announced today.

http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/9803/38/

Teams: Germany, New Zealand, Australia, Fiji, France, England, South Africa and the USA.

I don't know yet what the games will look like with 8 teams, but that's what I call a lineup with the best 6 teams in the World Sevens Series ranking.
Really looking forward to it!


I would have thought they wanted more teams than 2017 and not less... It´s hard for me to get too excited about it, considering it´s the RWC2019 opening weekend...
Would have gone for at least one South American team and a second African representative (Germany has been sending teams of all sorts to Sevens comps in both places quite regularly)

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Re: German rugby

Postby NedRugby » Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 00:27

Sounds good to me. My step-sister lives in Munich. Sounds like a visit is on the cards. It can't be long before they merit a stop on the world circuit. Is there a women's tournament?

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