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USA Rugby

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 26 Apr 2018, 23:53

Buffalo wrote:
dropkick wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
dropkick wrote:
Tobar wrote:Yeah I want to keep Pro14 the fuck out of here. We’re American. We do things American ways. We have an American league now. Don’t try coming in here to just profit off our hard work.



:lol:

Getting a bit ahead of yourself there? Lets wait and see if the league is able to sustain itself first. ;)

Well we already know that PRO14 isn't sustainable so...



You need to look up the definition of sustainable. The pro14 is growing every year and supplies 3 of the Champions cup 1/4 finalists, 6 nations winners etc.


Isn't the Pro 14 propped up by the revenue made from Internationals and doing poorly outside 3/4 of Ireland. And is it really such a tragedy that us North Americans don't want your league to touch our shores.


It is growing albeit slowly. It's taken time for the Welsh regions to start to gain any kind of traction but with the inclusion of the SA teams my understanding is that financially speaking things are on the up.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby dropkick » Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 01:29

Buffalo wrote:
dropkick wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
dropkick wrote:
Tobar wrote:Yeah I want to keep Pro14 the fuck out of here. We’re American. We do things American ways. We have an American league now. Don’t try coming in here to just profit off our hard work.



:lol:

Getting a bit ahead of yourself there? Lets wait and see if the league is able to sustain itself first. ;)

Well we already know that PRO14 isn't sustainable so...



You need to look up the definition of sustainable. The pro14 is growing every year and supplies 3 of the Champions cup 1/4 finalists, 6 nations winners etc.


Isn't the Pro 14 propped up by the revenue made from Internationals and doing poorly outside 3/4 of Ireland. And is it really such a tragedy that us North Americans don't want your league to touch our shores.



No tragedy at all. I think the new major league can be successful but it's going to take decades if it's successful. I find some of the attitudes amazing. A professional rugby organisation is willing to form a partnership with Canada and the USA and help them get off the ground yet they're told to fuck off and stop exploiting American rugby.


Its definitely in the pro14s interest in the short to medium term not to expand to North America. It would be a big investment. For the next few years they'll concentrate on South Africa and the development league they're talking about.


As WCR said above, the pro14 is on the up. Its growing every year. The English and French clubs get paid by their unions too.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby ihateblazers » Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 02:35

dropkick wrote:[
No tragedy at all. I think the new major league can be successful but it's going to take decades if it's successful. I find some of the attitudes amazing. A professional rugby organisation is willing to form a partnership with Canada and the USA and help them get off the ground yet they're told to fuck off and stop exploiting American rugby.


Its definitely in the pro14s interest in the short to medium term not to expand to North America. It would be a big investment. For the next few years they'll concentrate on South Africa and the development league they're talking about.


As WCR said above, the pro14 is on the up. Its growing every year. The English and French clubs get paid by their unions too.


By the sounds of things the Pro 12 board had no real market research done or framework presented for North American sides. It would simply have been a case of either having to rely on private investors or the national unions to waste millions and you'd have to question the Irish, Scots and Welsh commitment to actually assist with players, coaching etc which they claimed they would help. Especially when their priority is the national team and not the league. They would probably have charged them for entry and transport costs like they did with the Italians as well. With the pro 12/14's crap record of marketing the league outside of Ireland and the general lack of unity as an organisation it would be a massive risk for all involved.

I think you've been influenced by the #pro14masterrace nonsense. Success on the pitch is not nearly as important as organisation and success off the pitch.

Until the pro 14 runs itself like a league rather than individual unions with massively different priorities the league will not grow. Yes they've had an uplift revenue from the SA sides more of an expansion fee, but how long will that actually last. The cheetahs and Kings are getting crap crowds, I don't think there is much of a market in SA for the league.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 04:37

dropkick wrote:
No tragedy at all. I think the new major league can be successful but it's going to take decades if it's successful. I find some of the attitudes amazing. A professional rugby organisation is willing to form a partnership with Canada and the USA and help them get off the ground yet they're told to fuck off and stop exploiting American rugby.


Its definitely in the pro14s interest in the short to medium term not to expand to North America. It would be a big investment. For the next few years they'll concentrate on South Africa and the development league they're talking about.


As WCR said above, the pro14 is on the up. Its growing every year. The English and French clubs get paid by their unions too.

BS. The Pro12, if it truly had interest here would have put up and done it five years ago when their traps started opening. We're tired of the BS. We want to develop our own league, is that a big deal? The Pro 12 is not a sustainable model. Neither is Super Rugby btw.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby Osmanperalta » Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 05:05

The Pro 12 is not a sustainable model. Neither is Super Rugby btw.

totally ... they believe that with ONE team they managed to conquer a market of 300 million duh :roll: and already has the example of failure in the Italian market or the attempts of super rugby in singapore for me the pro 14 should go back to pro 12 with rgc 1404 and an aberdeen team instead of looking for nonsense expansion in North America, Italy and South Africa

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 06:57

Osmanperalta wrote:
The Pro 12 is not a sustainable model. Neither is Super Rugby btw.

totally ... they believe that with ONE team they managed to conquer a market of 300 million duh :roll: and already has the example of failure in the Italian market or the attempts of super rugby in singapore for me the pro 14 should go back to pro 12 with rgc 1404 and an aberdeen team instead of looking for nonsense expansion in North America, Italy and South Africa


South Africa makes more sense in regards to time zones. But every noise they made about NA came across and ill informed and piecemeal at best. Learn from SR mistakes and avoid setting up competitions that span a myriad of time zones. The Pro 14 is growing and will likely continue but NA really shouldn't be an option. Stay within the two or three time zones they currently operate and they'll continue to move forward.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby jonny24 » Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 11:29

I'd really rather not have Pro 14 here either. I don't want rugby to have to have this weird overseas arrangement. I want it to stand on its own feet here, like all the other sports. Pro14 would be a shortcut, when we can take the time to build something better ourselves.
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Re: USA Rugby

Postby dropkick » Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 12:56

ihateblazers wrote:By the sounds of things the Pro 12 board had no real market research done or framework presented for North American sides. It would simply have been a case of either having to rely on private investors or the national unions to waste millions and you'd have to question the Irish, Scots and Welsh commitment to actually assist with players, coaching etc which they claimed they would help. Especially when their priority is the national team and not the league. They would probably have charged them for entry and transport costs like they did with the Italians as well. With the pro 12/14's crap record of marketing the league outside of Ireland and the general lack of unity as an organisation it would be a massive risk for all involved.

I think you've been influenced by the #pro14masterrace nonsense. Success on the pitch is not nearly as important as organisation and success off the pitch.

Until the pro 14 runs itself like a league rather than individual unions with massively different priorities the league will not grow. Yes they've had an uplift revenue from the SA sides more of an expansion fee, but how long will that actually last. The cheetahs and Kings are getting crap crowds, I don't think there is much of a market in SA for the league.



I get the feeling that you'll dislike and disagree with whatever they do.


TheStroBro wrote:BS. The Pro12, if it truly had interest here would have put up and done it five years ago when their traps started opening. We're tired of the BS. We want to develop our own league, is that a big deal? The Pro 12 is not a sustainable model. Neither is Super Rugby btw.



Arn't you lucky they didn't! And btw, there was zero talk of expansion 5 years ago if thats what you mean by opening their traps. Is it a big deal if I think that the other way could have been better for American rugby? Its certainly not a big deal to me. Once SA came on board it that was it for me because the pro14 can either go down south or head west and not both in my opinion. European expansion was always my first choice.


Osmanperalta wrote:
The Pro 12 is not a sustainable model. Neither is Super Rugby btw.

totally ... they believe that with ONE team they managed to conquer a market of 300 million duh :roll: and already has the example of failure in the Italian market or the attempts of super rugby in singapore for me the pro 14 should go back to pro 12 with rgc 1404 and an aberdeen team instead of looking for nonsense expansion in North America, Italy and South Africa



4 teams is more than enough for Wales. It doesn't have the population to support 5 teams. Aberdeen could host a team in the future but I don't think thats in the Scottish plans for the foreseeable future.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 13:57

Most Metropolitan areas in the US that support Major Sports teams have larger populations than Ireland, Scotland, or Wales. That's something to think about I suppose and why the Pro14 has failed at commercialism. And same with New Zealand. The reality is that Ireland shouldn't be supporting 4 teams but 2 teams etc.
Last edited by TheStroBro on Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 16:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby Osmanperalta » Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 14:17

4 teams is more than enough for Wales. It doesn't have the population to support 5 teams

the north wales had 1.000.000 people what more population you want! Do not underestimate regional derbies RGC 1404 currently averages 2500-3000 which is not bad considering that they play a minor league (in a case of pro 12 would increase with the visiting public from the other Welsh regions)
and apart from that it would be the best now rugby would cover all Wales.

and follow the mentality of the pro 14 and the sanzar is not necessary big cities for the team to be successful (Singapore failure has already been seen) look at the stade mayol right now some super rugby city has that atmosphere?

the Americans (usa and canada) should undoubtedly have their own league for the same reason than the pro 14 should go back to celtic league because they have similar cultures, do you think that people will want to see the "new york titants" vs zebre??? right now you have an example in the super rugby, as much as i love the jaguares they are together with the sunwolves the team that least attracts crowds when they play as a visitor

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby dropkick » Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 19:22

Osmanperalta wrote:
4 teams is more than enough for Wales. It doesn't have the population to support 5 teams

the north wales had 1.000.000 people what more population you want! Do not underestimate regional derbies RGC 1404 currently averages 2500-3000 which is not bad considering that they play a minor league (in a case of pro 12 would increase with the visiting public from the other Welsh regions)
and apart from that it would be the best now rugby would cover all Wales.

and follow the mentality of the pro 14 and the sanzar is not necessary big cities for the team to be successful (Singapore failure has already been seen) look at the stade mayol right now some super rugby city has that atmosphere?

the Americans (usa and canada) should undoubtedly have their own league for the same reason than the pro 14 should go back to celtic league because they have similar cultures, do you think that people will want to see the "new york titants" vs zebre??? right now you have an example in the super rugby, as much as i love the jaguares they are together with the sunwolves the team that least attracts crowds when they play as a visitor




Wales as a country is too small to supply 5 teams. If you had another team in the north of the country that would further dilute the player pool and the money going to the other 4 regions.
The Welsh regions are a bizarre setup. They're all based on the south coast and I think the stadiums are all within 70 miles of each other. Plus I doubt rugby is that big in Wales. Soccer seems to be a lot bigger except for internationals.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby 4N » Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 21:20

4N wrote:Titans RFC won the Hawaii 7s championship. NFL player Joey Iosefa (back row, third from right) suited up for them.

Image


Well I posted this back in 2016 and tried to reach out to USA Rugby to sign him, but better late than never. When you are talking NFL converts, 2 years is pretty crucial though.

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2018/0 ... -fullback/

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 29 Apr 2018, 00:25

Joey Iosefa is getting capped in June. Signed and sealed.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby Figaro » Mon, 30 Apr 2018, 09:33

This is all getting pretty off topic, but 2 points:
1. The Cheetahs' Crowds in the Pro14 are down a little on what they were getting in super Rugby, but not an awful lot. The Kings are getting similar crowds being beaten eveyr game in Pro14 to what they got when they were being beaten all the time in Super Rugby. So it seems that it's not so much that the South Africans don't like the Pro14 as they aren't huge on the two teams they have in it.

2. The Welsh regions all being next to each other is partially just a reflection of where the population centres are - 2/3 live within the old counties of Glamorgan and Gwent - but also of the way the professional clubs had too much influence on the arrangements. The original plan was for four regions, one in the North, and then one in each of the three cities (Cardiff, Swansea and Newport, though the Swansea team would play in Llanelli to start with as that was the best stadium at the time) with names and branding that were independent of the clubs and cities they were formed from. Instead, the clubs blocked the plans and we ended up with five regions in the South, two of which were de-facto continuations of existing clubs (Scarlets and Cardiff Blues), and all five regions drew heavily on the logos and branding of their constituent clubs, four of them having the names of one or more of the clubs in their new names. One of the regions went bust after just one season and their "territory" was divided between the others.

Things have improved a little - the Ospreys and Dragons have ditched all the branding from their original clubs, and the Scarlets have long since removed "Llanelli" from their name, for all that's worth, even though they and the Blues both refer to themselves as if they are the same sides as Llanelli RFC and Cardiff RFC. But a real opportunity was lost, and the demise of the Celtic Warriors left the Valleys - the heartland of Welsh Rugby, and the one area of the original regions that does have some kind of clear regional identity - without a team. So it was all basically a fudge and a mess, so it's no wonder it's only been a partial success.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby iul » Mon, 30 Apr 2018, 11:45

Figaro wrote:This is all getting pretty off topic, but 2 points:
1. The Cheetahs' Crowds in the Pro14 are down a little on what they were getting in super Rugby, but not an awful lot. The Kings are getting similar crowds being beaten eveyr game in Pro14 to what they got when they were being beaten all the time in Super Rugby. So it seems that it's not so much that the South Africans don't like the Pro14 as they aren't huge on the two teams they have in it.

2. The Welsh regions all being next to each other is partially just a reflection of where the population centres are - 2/3 live within the old counties of Glamorgan and Gwent - but also of the way the professional clubs had too much influence on the arrangements. The original plan was for four regions, one in the North, and then one in each of the three cities (Cardiff, Swansea and Newport, though the Swansea team would play in Llanelli to start with as that was the best stadium at the time) with names and branding that were independent of the clubs and cities they were formed from. Instead, the clubs blocked the plans and we ended up with five regions in the South, two of which were de-facto continuations of existing clubs (Scarlets and Cardiff Blues), and all five regions drew heavily on the logos and branding of their constituent clubs, four of them having the names of one or more of the clubs in their new names. One of the regions went bust after just one season and their "territory" was divided between the others.

Things have improved a little - the Ospreys and Dragons have ditched all the branding from their original clubs, and the Scarlets have long since removed "Llanelli" from their name, for all that's worth, even though they and the Blues both refer to themselves as if they are the same sides as Llanelli RFC and Cardiff RFC. But a real opportunity was lost, and the demise of the Celtic Warriors left the Valleys - the heartland of Welsh Rugby, and the one area of the original regions that does have some kind of clear regional identity - without a team. So it was all basically a fudge and a mess, so it's no wonder it's only been a partial success.

I wonder if Wales wouldn't be better off putting a team in Pontypridd and one in the north and splitting off from the ProX, and doing their own thing.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby Figaro » Mon, 30 Apr 2018, 14:08

Such a competition would not be commercially viable. The Celtic countries all need each others' TV money.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 30 Apr 2018, 17:52

Wales could remove the idea of franchises, transform the Blues, the Dragons, the Scarlets and the Ospreys again in Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli and Swansea and create a promotion-relegation system:

- Every year the 4th Welsh in the PRO14 could face the champions of a semi-pro Welsh Premiership with 6 to 8 clubs (at least 20 rounds + playoffs). They can settle minimum requirements for promotion, like it is done in France and England. If the Welsh Premiership champions are unable to fit into the PRO14 requirements, cancel promotion/relegation for that year.

I don't see why they need to close the opportunities for other cities to try a place in the PRO14. Or do you believe Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli and Swansea would loose a big number of fans and become less viable?
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Re: USA Rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 01 May 2018, 15:54

http://d1arugby.com/news/california/lin ... the-semis/

"Though a rare necessity, such adjustments are part of the 2018 D1A Playoff Structure and Procedures, when having to accommodate for travel and expenses."

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 01 May 2018, 17:26

Yeah, it's a part of their process. Discussed above...but how nice of Cal fans to not drive 25 minutes to Moraga and see their team in a Semi-Final?

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 03 May 2018, 16:31


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Re: USA Rugby

Postby jonny24 » Thu, 03 May 2018, 17:03

There was another article on SMH that summed up pretty much why I don't want them here.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/super-rugby-would-be-crazy-to-ignore-united-states-20180503-p4zd2z.html

"who can find the winning formula first will benefit from the riches that come from one of the world's biggest economies."

"There's a women's market to plunder too with the US a force alongside Canada in both sevens and 15s."

"Whoever gets in first will likely laugh all the way to the bank."

All about their own self interests (wallets), not about growing the game.

Also had this gem:
"Major League Rugby is set to start in 2019 after an earlier nationwide rugby venture was played with mixed success." :lol: :lol:
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Re: USA Rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 03 May 2018, 18:38


They just want our money, gtfo. Another comp who's been chattering it up for five years.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 03 May 2018, 23:15

jonny24 wrote:There was another article on SMH that summed up pretty much why I don't want them here.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/super-rugby-would-be-crazy-to-ignore-united-states-20180503-p4zd2z.html

"who can find the winning formula first will benefit from the riches that come from one of the world's biggest economies."

"There's a women's market to plunder too with the US a force alongside Canada in both sevens and 15s."

"Whoever gets in first will likely laugh all the way to the bank."

All about their own self interests (wallets), not about growing the game.

Also had this gem:
"Major League Rugby is set to start in 2019 after an earlier nationwide rugby venture was played with mixed success." :lol: :lol:


This won't happen. Not after the recent debacle. At least not for some time and by then with any luck MLR will be well and truly established. SANZAAR needs to
listen to its base which I guarantee are 100% against this.

The only way's NA should be integrated into SANZAAR is via the Test Arena or some kind of Champions League structures held separate to the respective competitions.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 03 May 2018, 23:31

This will not happen. If you want US coin play some bloody test matches over there.

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Re: USA Rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 03 May 2018, 23:36

thatrugbyguy wrote:This will not happen. If you want US coin play some bloody test matches over there.


Yep. I'd be all for them being part of the RC and as above some kind of Champions League structure but not an addition to SR.

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