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2023 Rugby World Cup Host

2023 Rugby World Cup host

South Africa
16
23%
Ireland
15
21%
Italy
32
45%
France
8
11%
 
Total votes : 71
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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 01 Nov 2017, 10:22

thatrugbyguy wrote:Shouldn't World Rugby be the ones trying to give Tier 2 officials World Cup experience? Why the hell is it the Union taking this step?



Quite, its almost beyond parody from World Rugby.

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 01 Nov 2017, 11:01

I understand having the best referees in the game at the world cup but is there any actual reason WR can't give some of the T2 refs at least some work on the sideline with the flag?

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby victorsra » Wed, 01 Nov 2017, 12:13

Before doing this they must give T2 refs more chances in the June/Nov tests, Junior World Championship, Sevens World Series etc. The World Cup is the last one.
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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 01 Nov 2017, 17:47

France proposed having T2 officials as the times keepers and 4th official. In 6 years time.

Let's not act as if the current officials are particularly great. 6 years is an awfully long time to gain experience to take over what are roles normally given to inexperienced novice refs from the host union. Are Romanians, Georgians and Uruguayans incapable of using a watch and counting the subs? Who really thinks that?

Getting refs from t2 involved regularly is arguably even more important than getting the teams to that level. The unconscious bias from T1 officials towards each other is a massive part of the problems that T2 nations face, not to mention the English language bias that clearly exists in refereeing no matter the level.

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby argie » Wed, 01 Nov 2017, 19:04


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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby fullbackace » Wed, 01 Nov 2017, 19:25

sk 88 wrote:France proposed having T2 officials as the times keepers and 4th official. In 6 years time.

Let's not act as if the current officials are particularly great. 6 years is an awfully long time to gain experience to take over what are roles normally given to inexperienced novice refs from the host union. Are Romanians, Georgians and Uruguayans incapable of using a watch and counting the subs? Who really thinks that?

Getting refs from t2 involved regularly is arguably even more important than getting the teams to that level. The unconscious bias from T1 officials towards each other is a massive part of the problems that T2 nations face, not to mention the English language bias that clearly exists in refereeing no matter the level.

Was going to make the same exact point. Having officials at high level matches is bound to change the inherent bias towards stronger sides.
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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby Thomas » Wed, 01 Nov 2017, 22:41

fullbackace wrote:
sk 88 wrote:France proposed having T2 officials as the times keepers and 4th official. In 6 years time.

Let's not act as if the current officials are particularly great. 6 years is an awfully long time to gain experience to take over what are roles normally given to inexperienced novice refs from the host union. Are Romanians, Georgians and Uruguayans incapable of using a watch and counting the subs? Who really thinks that?

Getting refs from t2 involved regularly is arguably even more important than getting the teams to that level. The unconscious bias from T1 officials towards each other is a massive part of the problems that T2 nations face, not to mention the English language bias that clearly exists in refereeing no matter the level.

Was going to make the same exact point. Having officials at high level matches is bound to change the inherent bias towards stronger sides.


I totally agree with everything that has been said. I have seen it when they fly T1 Refs to championships in Latin America why can't they fly T2 Refs to Europe or Oceania to get experience? if memory serves me right there was only 1 T2 Ref in the last 6 nations championship he was either a touch judge or video ref.

I had to read the document again to understand the proposals. Will SA give Africa refs a chance? (none SA Refs)

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 02 Nov 2017, 00:44

argie wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=43&v=VGKOjDg90jQ

Only 4 games at the biggest venue?? :?:

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby fullbackace » Thu, 02 Nov 2017, 02:58

Thomas wrote:
fullbackace wrote:
sk 88 wrote:France proposed having T2 officials as the times keepers and 4th official. In 6 years time.

Let's not act as if the current officials are particularly great. 6 years is an awfully long time to gain experience to take over what are roles normally given to inexperienced novice refs from the host union. Are Romanians, Georgians and Uruguayans incapable of using a watch and counting the subs? Who really thinks that?

Getting refs from t2 involved regularly is arguably even more important than getting the teams to that level. The unconscious bias from T1 officials towards each other is a massive part of the problems that T2 nations face, not to mention the English language bias that clearly exists in refereeing no matter the level.

Was going to make the same exact point. Having officials at high level matches is bound to change the inherent bias towards stronger sides.


I totally agree with everything that has been said. I have seen it when they fly T1 Refs to championships in Latin America why can't they fly T2 Refs to Europe or Oceania to get experience? if memory serves me right there was only 1 T2 Ref in the last 6 nations championship he was either a touch judge or video ref.

I had to read the document again to understand the proposals. Will SA give Africa refs a chance? (none SA Refs)


It's not even about the referee it's about 4th and 5th officials. The excuse they're making is absolutely pathetic. How badly does a 4th official have to fuck up in order to lower the "officiating quality"
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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 02 Nov 2017, 13:12

sk 88 wrote:Image


Unbelievable. :shock:

So we've seen that France is basically the only union caring about expansion from the 6 Nations (U18 European championship cough cough). But that WR is now effectively punishing France for trying to spread the game and educating match officials which is much needed, is so f... unbelievable I can't really believe my own eyes.

Honestly, what do they even think? Sounds like an old joke about an English man driving on a German autobahn. He turns on the radio and hears "Attention, there's a ghost driver on the autobahn", the English nods his head in disbelieve and says to himself: "Bloody Germans. Just one? There are hundreds!"

France it is for me now. And just for the sake of this ridiculous claims by WR
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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 02 Nov 2017, 13:40

I'm just left scratching my head that it's the French union pressing for T2 match officials, and that it's considered a negative.

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 02 Nov 2017, 18:05

eal22 wrote:SA is the correct choice, Europe has had plenty of World Cups, South Africa will have waited 28 years by the time 2023 comes around.


I agree.

thatrugbyguy wrote:Shouldn't World Rugby be the ones trying to give Tier 2 officials World Cup experience?


The document says that World Rugby "would need assurance that the standard of officiating would not be compromised".

Wow, for a moment I thought that World Rugby was interested in promoting referee training in tier 2 countries...

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby YamahaKiwi » Fri, 03 Nov 2017, 11:44

To me there's no doubt France has the best bid. However I don't think they should get it for one, very important reason. They already had it recently in 2007. Having it again in 2023 is far too early when there are other teams who haven't had it for far longer or never held it solely themselves. TBH I don't think a country should be allowed to bid until say 20 years has passed since they last held a RWC. To me, France shouldn't actually be eligible to bid and host 2023RWC.

Btw someone said NZ might vote for IRE. NZ along with the three other SANZAAR nations have always maintained they would vote for RSA for 2023 and Steve Tew confirmed today that will indeed be the case for NZ. I also strongly suspect that Japan, having got RSA's thumbs up for the Sunwolves coming into SR will repay that with support for RSA.

As far as RSA's bid goes, as I wrote on the first pages of this thread, I still have reservations over their non stadium infrastructure (WR bizarrely gave them top marks for infrastructure when I'm pretty sure that infrastructure outside stadia is probably nowhere near as good as France's) , crime (which WR bizarrely gave them high marks for), political stability, and recent record of holding big events (2009BIL tour and 2010 FIFA WC that both had many games with lots of empty seats yet this doesn't seem to have been taken into account by WR).

And how will WR and RSA organisers help to make going to games as cheap for locals in RSA as can be? Even as an overseas travelling supporter, I'd like to see as many local RSA supporters as possible be able to attend the games. But I wonder for many South Africans how realistic a proposition that is having attended games at the last two RWCs myself.

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby olivier » Fri, 03 Nov 2017, 19:09

- Those eligible to vote in the secret ballot will be Australia (3 votes), England (3), New Zealand (3), Scotland (3), Wales (3), Italy (3), Argentina (3), Canada (1), Japan (2), Georgia (1), Romania (1), USA (1), Asia Rugby (2), Oceania Rugby (2), Rugby Africa (2), Rugby Americas North (2), Rugby Europe (2), Sudamerica Rugby (2).


Let's play the game : 20 votes to win.
http://sport24.lefigaro.fr/rugby/xv-de- ... tre-882692
France's already assured of 16 votes. I think England 3 + Italy 3 + Georgia 1 + Romania 1 + USA 1 + Canada 1 + Rugby Africa 2 + RAN 2 + Rugby Europe 2

South African wil get the SANZAAR even if they're close to quit them for Europe... Australia 3 + NZ 3 + Argentina 3 + Sudamerica 2 + Oceania Rugby 2 = 13

Ireland will get their friends : Wales 3 + Scotland 3

Unknow : Japan 2 + Rugby Asia 2

Good to know : Ireland can vote for the second round.

Celts won't never think about their fans and will finally vote for traditional anglo-saxon side. SA win. Or amazing, France manage to turn Argentina and win it.

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby BigG » Fri, 03 Nov 2017, 19:26

Ireland if it is out in first round will vote for France. Think about fans attending WC matches. How many Irish fans are able to attend WC in SA? Hopefully hundreds. And how many Irish fans are able to attend WC in France? Thousands. Number of supporters matters.

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby olivier » Fri, 03 Nov 2017, 19:30

BigG wrote:Ireland if it is out in first round will vote for France. Think about fans attending WC matches. How many Irish fans are able to attend WC in SA? Hopefully hundreds. And how many Irish fans are able to attend WC in France? Thousands. Number of supporters matters.

Hopefully you're right. I think bosses don't care at all and will think about about Pro 14 alliance also.

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 03 Nov 2017, 19:39

Rugby Africa will vote for SA. Surely?

I'm not convinced anyone will vote for Ireland after that report. Its clearly a two horse race now, I think they might stop wasting time and go straight for their final choice.

The secret ballot though makes it fascinating. Usual loyalties don't apply because no one will know who wielded the knife.

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby 4N » Fri, 03 Nov 2017, 19:41

olivier wrote:
BigG wrote:Ireland if it is out in first round will vote for France. Think about fans attending WC matches. How many Irish fans are able to attend WC in SA? Hopefully hundreds. And how many Irish fans are able to attend WC in France? Thousands. Number of supporters matters.

Hopefully you're right. I think bosses don't care at all and will think about about Pro 14 alliance also.


At this point I think Ireland will vote for SA.

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby olivier » Fri, 03 Nov 2017, 19:45

SA do nothing for Rugby Africa. Aziz Bougja vote for Rugby Africa.

Here the council. https://www.worldrugby.org/organisation ... re/council

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby Canalina » Fri, 03 Nov 2017, 22:59

argie wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=43&v=VGKOjDg90jQ

I would have bet that in 2023 we would have had 24 teams but this promo seems to suggest a tournament again with 20 teams

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 03 Nov 2017, 23:57

Unfortunately some statements from World Rugby already had hinted that the format would remain the same for 2023.

By the way, have anybody thought before of a cross-pool format for 24 teams? I know almost everybody hates to see it in Continental Shield, but 8 groups of three teams facing teams from a different pool and then playing a play-off between the Top 2 from each group could work within the exact timeframe RWC currently has and ensuring at the very least five days of rest between each game.
Last edited by Armchair Fan on Sat, 04 Nov 2017, 00:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 04 Nov 2017, 00:05

I don't like the idea of teams progression to the quarterfinals hinging on games against teams in other pools. It complicates things far too much.

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 04 Nov 2017, 00:08

It would be to Round of 16, not quarterfinals. It's still weird, but not so decisive.

The example with Top 24 from current rankings and the timeframe 2019 RWC has for a hypothetic 2023 RWC under that model would be the following:
- Friday 22/09: South Africa v New Zealand
- Saturday 23/09: Fiji v Argentina, USA v Uruguay, England v Georgia, Japan v Russia, Spain v Australia
- Sunday 24/09: Ireland v Scotland, Tonga v Italy, Namibia v Hong Kong, Germany v Samoa, Romania v France
- Monday 25/09: Wales v Canada
- Tuesday 26/09: Rest
- Wednesday 27/09: Rest
- Thursday 28/09: Rest
- Friday 29/09: USA v Argentina, Fiji v New Zealand
- Saturday 30/09: South Africa v Uruguay, England v Australia, Japan v Georgia, Spain v Russia
- Sunday 31/09: Wales v Samoa, Ireland v Hong Kong, Namibia v Italy, Romania v Canada, Germany v France
- Monday 01/10: Tonga v Scotland
- Tuesday 02/10: Rest
- Wednesday 03/10: Rest
- Thursday 04/10: New Zealand v USA
- Friday 05/10: South Africa v Argentina, Fiji v Uruguay
- Saturday 06/10: Japan v Australia, England v Russia, Spain v Georgia, Tonga v Hong Kong
- Sunday 07/10: Ireland v Italy, Namibia v Scotland, Romania v Samoa, Germany v Canada
- Monday 08/10: France v Wales

End of Pool Stages - Round of 16

- Tuesday 09/10: Rest
- Wednesday 10/10: Rest
- Thursday 11/10: South Africa v Fiji
- Friday 12/10: New Zealand v Argentina
- Saturday 13/10: England v Japan, Australia v Georgia, Ireland v Tonga
- Sunday 14/10: Scotland v Italy, Wales v Romania, France v Samoa

Quarterfinals
- Monday 15/10: Rest
- Tuesday 16/10: Rest
- Wednesday 17/10: Rest
- Thursday 18/10: QF1
- Friday 19/10: QF2
- Saturday 20/10: QF3
- Sunday 21/10: QF4

Semifinals and finals the two following weekends.

It isn't orthodox, but avoids to take best second or third-placed teams for following rounds, ensures a big game every night, protects player welfare, makes every pool game crucial since there are only three and points difference could be key...

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 04 Nov 2017, 01:17

I don't feel like that's an easy format to follow, nor do I think it would ever be a really balanced format. I still think we have to get back to 4 team groups. I'm also starting to rethink the whole Qualifiers knockout stage thing. I've never liked the idea of a 'Plate' competition, and I'm sill not certain teams would want to participate in it, but I'm starting to think it an option at least worth looking into.

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Re: 2023 Rugby World Cup Host

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 04 Nov 2017, 01:27

thatrugbyguy wrote:I don't feel like that's an easy format to follow, nor do I think it would ever be a really balanced format. I still think we have to get back to 4 team groups. I'm also starting to rethink the whole Qualifiers knockout stage thing. I've never liked the idea of a 'Plate' competition, and I'm sill not certain teams would want to participate in it, but I'm starting to think it an option at least worth looking into.


I'd prefer to see a 6 x 4 if the RWC were to go to 24. I think this would sort a lot of the issues around unfair scheduling for all teams. Three games in a fortnight would be doable for everyone and should in theory allow for the minnows to field stronger and more competitive teams. From there a round of 16 should be added with the top 2 from each pool automatically qualifying. The other four can be decided on points difference.

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