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A Pro12 Expansion

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby cardiffrcm » Sun, 09 Jul 2017, 15:47

4N wrote:
cardiffrcm wrote:In a decade there may well be a 4 conference league; Celtic, RSA, European and N.American.

In the short term they will have to put up with the logistical inconvenience and a possible dip in playing standards to reach this goal.


Sounds nice but fanciful. Where are additional teams on the European continent coming from? Wild is surely tied up with Stade for a few years and it's been said repeatedly that Spain have no money for this. So you have a 10 team (maybe 9 if Dragons don't make it) 'Celtic' conference, let's assume for these purposes that all 6 SA teams join. That's 15/16 plus another 2/3 in US and Canada, and Italy if they're still involved. So you're at 20+ teams. And adding more from continental Europe? Can't see it.


Possibly not.

However, Italy are pushing for a 3rd team and Tblisi, Bucharest, Barcelona & Germany are all strong possibilities.

I'd agree it won't happen in a hurry (if at all) and it is very unlikely that the Celtic teams would want to lose any teams.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Sir Duke » Sun, 09 Jul 2017, 16:25

I cant see why this cant be considered as a global conference style partnership.

Currently you have a PRO12 and a super rugby competition , with the prospect of a global rugby calendar , surely common sense would see that aligning the two leagues would be for the greater good of the rugby in each of the respective countries.
The strength in numbers of the rugby audiences and rugby teams competing would be a far more attractive product to grow globally.
With sensible planning , you could look to introduce markets every 4 or 5 years (which would also coincide with the negotiating of tv contracts).
Every four or five years when the tv contracts are being re-negotiated , this global rugby group would allow other countries to join into the umbrella organisation.
For example , if SR and PRO12 were to merge (phase 1) , you could say in 5 years time , there would be the introduction of the Americas conference and inclusion of additional Pacific Island and European teams.
This would allow 5 years of potential teams to become ready for the professional games by creating a local fan base , building squads , arranging regular tours and friendlies , getting in place suitable coaches and understanding of what it requires to create a professional rugby infrastructure.
All this would be done as part of a partnership with the existing PRO12/SR teams.
Once these teams are in place (phase 2) you would ahve a larger Asian (Japan/Aus/NZ/PI) region , a Euro/SA region and an Americas (US/Cananda/Arg/Uruguay)
This continues for the next 4-5 years but the plans are in place today for phase 3 which would involve further expansion (Other suitable Tier 2 / 3 nations for example Belgium / Chile / HK / China ) all receiving ongoing support from the established Tier 1 rugby playing nations/clubs.

Its essentially a global partnership rather than a dog eat dog competion each trying to steal from each others table.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 03:14

Sir Duke wrote:I cant see why this cant be considered as a global conference style partnership.

Currently you have a PRO12 and a super rugby competition , with the prospect of a global rugby calendar , surely common sense would see that aligning the two leagues would be for the greater good of the rugby in each of the respective countries.
The strength in numbers of the rugby audiences and rugby teams competing would be a far more attractive product to grow globally.
With sensible planning , you could look to introduce markets every 4 or 5 years (which would also coincide with the negotiating of tv contracts).
Every four or five years when the tv contracts are being re-negotiated , this global rugby group would allow other countries to join into the umbrella organisation.
For example , if SR and PRO12 were to merge (phase 1) , you could say in 5 years time , there would be the introduction of the Americas conference and inclusion of additional Pacific Island and European teams.
This would allow 5 years of potential teams to become ready for the professional games by creating a local fan base , building squads , arranging regular tours and friendlies , getting in place suitable coaches and understanding of what it requires to create a professional rugby infrastructure.
All this would be done as part of a partnership with the existing PRO12/SR teams.
Once these teams are in place (phase 2) you would ahve a larger Asian (Japan/Aus/NZ/PI) region , a Euro/SA region and an Americas (US/Cananda/Arg/Uruguay)
This continues for the next 4-5 years but the plans are in place today for phase 3 which would involve further expansion (Other suitable Tier 2 / 3 nations for example Belgium / Chile / HK / China ) all receiving ongoing support from the established Tier 1 rugby playing nations/clubs.

Its essentially a global partnership rather than a dog eat dog competion each trying to steal from each others table.


A 'World League' is doable now if they really wanted to get creative.

Look at the current 30 teams across both the Pro 12 and SR. There are are easily enough to do it right now. Set it up over two division one with three conferences and the other with two. Each conference consists of 6 franchises.

So in the West Division (for example) you have three conferences. Africa with the 6 SA conference and two based on the current Pro 12 teams. Personally I'd go 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scot and 1 Italian each.

In the East Division you have the the Aus conference along with the Sunwolves and the NZ conference with the Jaguares.

For regular season play each conference would play their in conference opponents twice H/A for 10 games. In the case of the West division they would also play 3 teams from each of the other two conference for 16 games total while in the East would play each of the other conferences franchises for 16 games as well.

From there the top 2 from each of the West conference and top 3 from each of the East progress to the divisional finals to determine the divisional champions. After that the respective winners play each other in the final to determine the overall champions of 'World Champion' with each division rotating as host year on year.

From there they could then look to get an independent America's conference established to balance out the East division featuring at least 1 Canadian franchise. Two or three US based franchises and a second Arg/Sth American franchise alongside the Jaguares. As Fiji will be entering a team in the NRC from this season they would jump to full time in the Aus conference and the Supplies would move across to the NZ.

Part of this move would also be accompanied by an opening of the player market within the participating nation meaning that a player can take up a contract anywhere within this competition and still be eligible to play for their country of origin.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby carbonero » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 11:51

Image

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 13:13

I can't see the Italians being booted out. If the league wants to expand, that makes no sense.

I do think we'll see changes in Italy and that's what the discussions are mainly about.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Mon, 10 Jul 2017, 18:25

Tomorrow we'll know the future of the Zebre: http://www.onrugby.it/2017/07/10/di-un- ... o12-docet/
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Tue, 11 Jul 2017, 21:11

It was reported that the Italians are fine. They'll both be there until at least 2020 when their contract runs out. Hopefully thats enough time for them to improve.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Wed, 12 Jul 2017, 07:35

dropkick wrote:It was reported that the Italians are fine. They'll both be there until at least 2020 when their contract runs out. Hopefully thats enough time for them to improve.


What's going to change for them in the next three years? I don't wish to sound negative and I do want them to succeed, I just don't see the point of carrying on with the status quo and just hoping things improve - it hasn't worked in the last 7 years, inasmuch as the Italians are no more competitive than they were when they first joined; why should another three years of the same produce anything different?

I'm not necessarily saying the teams should move or that one or the other should be scrapped, but *something* has to change. It's no good hoping that the South Africans' money will improve things because the Celtic sides will get more as well.
Last edited by Figaro on Wed, 12 Jul 2017, 11:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Wed, 12 Jul 2017, 10:01

You're probably right, Figaro but I still have a little hope them can do something positive. Maybe the threat of being kicked out will be the kick in the ass the Italian players need to put in more effort this season.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 12 Jul 2017, 11:49

Well at first they brought 25 million GBP participation fees for the first 5 years for Scotland, Wales & Ireland. With 2,5 million GBP extra per season those sides would look very different today. The worst mistake at including Italian teams.

What's more interesting is, why they haven't performed better in the last two years. I don't have an answer for it. Lets hope it is not a losing mentalitiy inherited when they were sucked out of money in the first 5 years.
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Wed, 12 Jul 2017, 14:49

The Italian national side is slowly improving. Their performances in June were okay, particularly against Australia. Their Pro12 sides should also improve if they can keep a hold of their international players and get decent coaches. The Italian market still has more financial potential than anyone else in the Pro12 so it would be dangerous from a financial aspect to give up on them.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Wed, 12 Jul 2017, 16:27

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:The Italian national side is slowly improving. Their performances in June were okay, particularly against Australia. Their Pro12 sides should also improve if they can keep a hold of their international players and get decent coaches. The Italian market still has more financial potential than anyone else in the Pro12 so it would be dangerous from a financial aspect to give up on them.


I'm not suggesting we give up on them, I'm saying that something has to change about Italian participation - whether it's money, number or location of teams, coaching, players, whatever. The current arrangement doesn't work and simply giving it more time and hoping that it wI'll start working isn't going to help. That's what we've done for the past seven years.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 13 Jul 2017, 00:04

Figaro wrote:
Bruce_ma_goose wrote:The Italian national side is slowly improving. Their performances in June were okay, particularly against Australia. Their Pro12 sides should also improve if they can keep a hold of their international players and get decent coaches. The Italian market still has more financial potential than anyone else in the Pro12 so it would be dangerous from a financial aspect to give up on them.


I'm not suggesting we give up on them, I'm saying that something has to change about Italian participation - whether it's money, number or location of teams, coaching, players, whatever. The current arrangement doesn't work and simply giving it more time and hoping that it wI'll start working isn't going to help. That's what we've done for the past seven years.


Personally, I think they need to go down the Argentina path and look to set up a similar structure as the Jaguares.

They need to take a step back and focus on creating a single successful vessel based out of Rome rosters largely by member of the Italian national side. As a replacement I'd open the door for a Georgian team with largely the same objective.

Set it up that the one franchise status will be reassessed near the end of the next TV deal. If the Roman franchise is performing well then look to re-introduce a second franchise based in another large city.

I think the Italians could warrant two franchises but I think they went too big too soon. And because of this got caught up in a whole heap of issues that have plagued and stunted their progress.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby ihateblazers » Thu, 13 Jul 2017, 03:03

I think that could be the best way to go as well. As there isn't substantial private investment interested and the teams are so unpopular with no crowds or revenue or local sponsorshop support, going with a super union controlled team might the best bet. Hire a top gun coach, maybe even get O'Shea to do a double job. No more reject journeymen project South African players. Encourage players to leave for France and England, with the domestic league becoming a breeding ground for the next generation and the pro 12 side to improve the national side.

Then redirect the funds to the acadmies and domestic league. If it doesn't work out they've already got one foot out the door and they can go all in with a domestic league again.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 20:55

How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Sat, 15 Jul 2017, 08:09

Playing some games in the UK has always been mooted, though this article seems to suggest all the games would be in London. Seems very unlikely to me, what would be the point of that?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 15 Jul 2017, 08:17

I watched Cheetas v Kings last night. I reckon they'll both push the play offs, tiredness after X mas permitting.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby rey200 » Mon, 17 Jul 2017, 09:48

in my opinion: a grab for S.A. TV money. I guess until SR come back crawling to expand and subsequently adding the Cheetahs and maybe the Kings again. That's what I think

what might happen: the Cheetahs get more TV audience than expected and SR how we know it will be dead.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Suiram » Mon, 17 Jul 2017, 16:51

Assuming they can put together compelling teams, I suspect the novelty of SH v NH club matches will draw more interest than some more negative people expect.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby eal22 » Mon, 17 Jul 2017, 21:57

Doesn't keeping the Kings and Cheetahs alive, albeit in a different competition defeat the main purpose of South Africa reducing its Super Rugby footprint. 6 teams down to 4 was going to improve the squads of the remaining 4. Who are the Kings and Cheetahs going to field in the Pro12, teams of journeyman and reserves? Presumably anyone half-decent will be playing for one of the four Super Rugby franchises?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 17 Jul 2017, 23:59

eal22 wrote:Doesn't keeping the Kings and Cheetahs alive, albeit in a different competition defeat the main purpose of South Africa reducing its Super Rugby footprint. 6 teams down to 4 was going to improve the squads of the remaining 4. Who are the Kings and Cheetahs going to field in the Pro12, teams of journeyman and reserves? Presumably anyone half-decent will be playing for one of the four Super Rugby franchises?

Pretty much.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bolaroid » Tue, 18 Jul 2017, 00:38

eal22 wrote:Doesn't keeping the Kings and Cheetahs alive, albeit in a different competition defeat the main purpose of South Africa reducing its Super Rugby footprint. 6 teams down to 4 was going to improve the squads of the remaining 4. Who are the Kings and Cheetahs going to field in the Pro12, teams of journeyman and reserves? Presumably anyone half-decent will be playing for one of the four Super Rugby franchises?

Wouldn't they already be playing for them? I'm not sure improving the squads of the remaining 4 was really the aim of cutting the teams. Wasn't it the other Unions who wanted them cut as opposed to SA?

I also read something about assurances of squad strength requested by the Pro 12.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Tue, 18 Jul 2017, 03:04

My question is: will Cheetahs and Kings play the Bulls, Sharks, Lions and WP/Stormers any time in the season full strenght?

And what will Cheetahs and Kings do with the Currie Cup?

These questions are important for their supporters!
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Sables4EVA » Tue, 18 Jul 2017, 06:58

victorsra wrote:My question is: will Cheetahs and Kings play the Bulls, Sharks, Lions and WP/Stormers any time in the season full strenght?

And what will Cheetahs and Kings do with the Currie Cup?

These questions are important for their supporters!


The Currie cup games will be played before the Pro 12 season and during European Cup breaks.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Working Class Rugger » Tue, 18 Jul 2017, 07:05

There are growing rumblings that the Sharks are very interested in heading north as well. Could the Pro 18 fairly quickly.

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