Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

A Pro12 Expansion

Posts: 2572
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Thu, 17 Aug 2017, 18:29

Russian rugby needs a long term development plan. You have a couple of great clubs, good players (men and women), but it looks Russian rugby is stucked with lack of marketing work. Russia is no different from Germany, Spain, Brazil, USA, all countries where rugby is miles away from the main sports. The excuse "football and hockey are big" is no excuse. BTW, Brazil, Germany and USA has nothing like Krasnoyarsk, a big city where rugby is professional and draws thousands of fans. And even Slava and VVA look to have more than any club in those countries (they own stadiums, isn't it?).

You need a clear, transparent, plan with the rugby community commited with it. And I agree, you have more to gain making your league great than wasting money in PRO14, whose countries will probably deny you the chance to play in Siberia anyway.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 200
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby STMKY » Fri, 18 Aug 2017, 06:34

Nobody says that in the PRO14 it is necessary to promote the Enisei and the Krasny Yar. In Siberia, the climate will does not allow play from November to March, and play all home games in the south without fans there is no point. About PRO14 you can say if will appear interest in St. Petersburg, Kaliningrad or Moscow. Then this club can invite all the strongest Russian players, as well as several top foreigners.

Posts: 1303
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 18 Aug 2017, 06:49

STMKY wrote:Nobody says that in the PRO14 it is necessary to promote the Enisei and the Krasny Yar. In Siberia, the climate will does not allow play from November to March, and play all home games in the south without fans there is no point. About PRO14 you can say if will appear interest in St. Petersburg, Kaliningrad or Moscow. Then this club can invite all the strongest Russian players, as well as several top foreigners.


Lets face it: in St. Petersburg, Kaliningrad or Moscow the climate doesn't allow to play Pro14 in December, January and February (as well as sometimes November and March) as well. In Germany in most, but not all areas, you don't have that much snow. The Netherlands and Belgium have a really close climate to the British Isle, so they can play a sport played on grass even in winter.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 414
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Fri, 18 Aug 2017, 07:28

Italy and Wales show the dangers of imposing a badly thought-out franchise system on an established and thriving club game.

As Enisey-STM have shown, Russian clubs are already competitive at European level (Challenge Cup at least). They should focus on marketing their existing club game better and developing internal systems. Additionally, I think the top team(s) in the league should automatically qualify for the Challenge cup, rather than having to go through the Continental shield (as they are manifestly good enough) - that alone should really raise the profile of Russian Rugby.

Posts: 200
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby STMKY » Fri, 18 Aug 2017, 09:17

RugbyLiebe wrote:
STMKY wrote:Nobody says that in the PRO14 it is necessary to promote the Enisei and the Krasny Yar. In Siberia, the climate will does not allow play from November to March, and play all home games in the south without fans there is no point. About PRO14 you can say if will appear interest in St. Petersburg, Kaliningrad or Moscow. Then this club can invite all the strongest Russian players, as well as several top foreigners.


Lets face it: in St. Petersburg, Kaliningrad or Moscow the climate doesn't allow to play Pro14 in December, January and February (as well as sometimes November and March) as well. In Germany in most, but not all areas, you don't have that much snow. The Netherlands and Belgium have a really close climate to the British Isle, so they can play a sport played on grass even in winter.


In Kaliningrad, you can play in the winter, a slight negative temperature is possible, but consider that the new stadium has a field heating system. In St. Petersburg and Moscow, football clubs play until mid-December and begin in mid-February. And in St. Petersburg, winter matches can be played under the roof at the Zenit Arena.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5g9ExO1TIA
If there is a rich sponsor, then these issues can be discussed. The solution to the problem also is to exchange home games with other teams PRO14.

Posts: 200
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby STMKY » Fri, 18 Aug 2017, 09:25

Figaro wrote:Italy and Wales show the dangers of imposing a badly thought-out franchise system on an established and thriving club game.

As Enisey-STM have shown, Russian clubs are already competitive at European level (Challenge Cup at least). They should focus on marketing their existing club game better and developing internal systems. Additionally, I think the top team(s) in the league should automatically qualify for the Challenge cup, rather than having to go through the Continental shield (as they are manifestly good enough) - that alone should really raise the profile of Russian Rugby.


Why not think about expanding the Challenge Cup to 24 teams (6 group) in 2-3 years? In Russia, Romania, Italy, Georgia there are good-quality clubs that grow and develop.

Posts: 414
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Fri, 18 Aug 2017, 09:48

STMKY wrote:
Figaro wrote:Italy and Wales show the dangers of imposing a badly thought-out franchise system on an established and thriving club game.

As Enisey-STM have shown, Russian clubs are already competitive at European level (Challenge Cup at least). They should focus on marketing their existing club game better and developing internal systems. Additionally, I think the top team(s) in the league should automatically qualify for the Challenge cup, rather than having to go through the Continental shield (as they are manifestly good enough) - that alone should really raise the profile of Russian Rugby.


Why not think about expanding the Challenge Cup to 24 teams (6 group) in 2-3 years? In Russia, Romania, Italy, Georgia there are good-quality clubs that grow and develop.


Yes, you would need to do that or the Russian teams would come at the expense of other countries which isn't fair if they're not allowed to play against them to earn their place.

I suspect this may well happen anyway to accomodate the South Africans.

User avatar
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu, 17 Jul 2014, 10:29
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Horsehead » Fri, 18 Aug 2017, 10:21

STMKY wrote:
Figaro wrote:Italy and Wales show the dangers of imposing a badly thought-out franchise system on an established and thriving club game.

As Enisey-STM have shown, Russian clubs are already competitive at European level (Challenge Cup at least). They should focus on marketing their existing club game better and developing internal systems. Additionally, I think the top team(s) in the league should automatically qualify for the Challenge cup, rather than having to go through the Continental shield (as they are manifestly good enough) - that alone should really raise the profile of Russian Rugby.


Why not think about expanding the Challenge Cup to 24 teams (6 group) in 2-3 years? In Russia, Romania, Italy, Georgia there are good-quality clubs that grow and develop.


I can't help but think that any team playing in the PRO14 will be included wherever they are from (I know the SA teams can't this season) so going forward I think this will have to happen anyway. I can't believe for one moment that the French and English clubs don't want SA and US teams to get involved

User avatar
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon, 21 Sep 2015, 15:38
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bolaroid » Tue, 22 Aug 2017, 12:11

STMKY wrote:Nobody says that in the PRO14 it is necessary to promote the Enisei and the Krasny Yar. In Siberia, the climate will does not allow play from November to March, and play all home games in the south without fans there is no point. About PRO14 you can say if will appear interest in St. Petersburg, Kaliningrad or Moscow. Then this club can invite all the strongest Russian players, as well as several top foreigners.

You need one of Vovas oligarch friends to make it happen. :)

Posts: 77
Joined: Tue, 18 Nov 2014, 15:06
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby honestly_united » Tue, 22 Aug 2017, 16:08

As much as I think Einisei or Krasny Yar (or even a combined team) should be top of the list for any potential expansion to the Pro14 the fact that is unless they build an indoor arena its not going to happen if you cant host matches November to March. Although out of interest i did look up some distances to see how that would compare for my club Glasgow if you were to join, its approx 3435 miles to Krasnoyarsk, which is nearly identical to what it would be to Washington if a US franchise is based their (3425 miles) and much closer than Port Elisabeth for the Kings (6440 miles from Glasgow).

I had thought would it be better to move winter games to Moscow, but Moscow is closer to Glasgow at 1600 than it is to Krasnoyarsk at 2085, so it would hardly be fair to move winter games their.

I also thought what about playing in the summer rather than winter and playing in Super Rugby. Tokyo is closer at 2585 than getting to UK or France, but Buenos Aries (10445), Cape Town (7595) and Wellington (8245) may be a bit far for the fans to nip over for an away game although there is a team in Perth in need of some games and they are only 6235 miles away.

Alternatively (and has been suggested) some sort of Eastern European league could be looked at, but again Tbilisi is 2340 miles away

So in conclusion they are just to far away from anywhere to include in a league :D :lol:

In all seriousness though, if you take football as an example a team from Glasgow are going to be playing in Astana this midweek for the Champions League, and have domestic league games either side at the weekends and the distance is pretty similar so playing a game to the weekend should not be an issue, its more having an indoor stadia for the winter to use I would say is the main issue.

Online
Posts: 932
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 23 Aug 2017, 02:58

honestly_united wrote:As much as I think Einisei or Krasny Yar (or even a combined team) should be top of the list for any potential expansion to the Pro14 the fact that is unless they build an indoor arena its not going to happen if you cant host matches November to March. Although out of interest i did look up some distances to see how that would compare for my club Glasgow if you were to join, its approx 3435 miles to Krasnoyarsk, which is nearly identical to what it would be to Washington if a US franchise is based their (3425 miles) and much closer than Port Elisabeth for the Kings (6440 miles from Glasgow).

I had thought would it be better to move winter games to Moscow, but Moscow is closer to Glasgow at 1600 than it is to Krasnoyarsk at 2085, so it would hardly be fair to move winter games their.

I also thought what about playing in the summer rather than winter and playing in Super Rugby. Tokyo is closer at 2585 than getting to UK or France, but Buenos Aries (10445), Cape Town (7595) and Wellington (8245) may be a bit far for the fans to nip over for an away game although there is a team in Perth in need of some games and they are only 6235 miles away.

Alternatively (and has been suggested) some sort of Eastern European league could be looked at, but again Tbilisi is 2340 miles away

So in conclusion they are just to far away from anywhere to include in a league :D :lol:

In all seriousness though, if you take football as an example a team from Glasgow are going to be playing in Astana this midweek for the Champions League, and have domestic league games either side at the weekends and the distance is pretty similar so playing a game to the weekend should not be an issue, its more having an indoor stadia for the winter to use I would say is the main issue.


Fairly sure someone on this very site posted pics of an indoor arena in Krasnoyarsk that would fit the bill. Being indoor and large enough.

Posts: 2572
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Wed, 23 Aug 2017, 12:32

Yep, for the 2019 Winter Universiade.

It is a bandy stadium. It could be used by rugby, but to make it possible thy would need artificial grass and a floor adaptation.

https://krsk2019.com/en/sport_objects/35
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 458
Joined: Mon, 12 May 2014, 21:05
National Flag:
IrelandIreland

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Fri, 25 Aug 2017, 13:14

There was more expansion talk during the pro14 launch a few days ago. The following was quoted from an article and looks to me like could be more aggressive with the expansion than people think.

http://www.the42.ie/pro14-tv-expansion- ... 1-Aug2017/

The competitiveness of an American or German franchise would need to be aided by the tournament organisers with investment and incentives for players to go play there until a more organic method of player production was put in place.

The South Africa expansion was able to come about quicker because of the ingrained rugby culture that already exists. And Anayi is excited by the potential of the Cheetahs and Kings to compete, and force a rule change to allow them compete in EPCR tournaments, even if their squad lists are short star power for their first season in the northern hemisphere.

Posts: 63
Joined: Tue, 05 Jul 2016, 04:18
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby eal22 » Sat, 26 Aug 2017, 03:48

Before planning a Berlin or Boston franchise, it would seemingly make more sense for the Pro14 (can we change the name of this thread?) to establish a successful franchise in Rome or Genoa - one that could actually compete. The Italian teams currently are deadwood and bring nothing to the competition.

Posts: 1446
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 30 Aug 2017, 12:37

Martin Anayi on potential expansion to USA, Canada, Germany and Spain: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ain-canada

Posts: 2572
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Fri, 01 Sep 2017, 18:11

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/more-te ... oin-pro14/

So it is a matter of time that rugby's traditional split of North and South will change to East and West. In the 21st century makes sense broadcasting times instead of weather as the central issue.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 1430
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 01 Sep 2017, 19:40

Cheetahs getting thrashed by Ulster so far. 32-14 after 48 mins.

Posts: 414
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Sat, 02 Sep 2017, 19:06

South Africans shipped over 100 points between them on the first weekend.

Posts: 1430
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 02 Sep 2017, 20:18

tough to judge them until the Currie Cup is finished and there is no argument on their best side. But a very poor start.

Posts: 1230
Joined: Wed, 16 Apr 2014, 22:26
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby grande » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 12:59

Has Rugby Europe (or whomever) announced how qualification for the European Championship will work next year?

Posts: 414
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 13:50

grande wrote:Has Rugby Europe (or whomever) announced how qualification for the European Championship will work next year?


As in the past for the Franglais.

As I understand it the Top 3 non-RSA sides in each Pro14 conference will qualify for the Champions Cup, plus the next highest overall. The highest placed in each conference not already qualified will then compete in the playoff (so you could potentially finish as low as 6th in your conference and still make the Champions Cup, though it's rather unlikely).

RSA sides cannot qualify for or compete in either European competition regardless of where they finish.

The big change (which has rather gone under the radar due to the South African expansion) is that there is no longer guaranteed qualification for the European countries in the Pro14. The 2018-19 Champions Cup will be the first to have NO Italian team, barring a major upset (either Zebre would have to either win the Challenge Cup, or either Italian side would have to do better in the league than they have since joining)

Posts: 1430
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 14:23

Technically Treviso finished high enough once to qualify on merit. They came 7th one year.

Posts: 458
Joined: Mon, 12 May 2014, 21:05
National Flag:
IrelandIreland

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 21:24

I thought both teams showed glimpses of what they can do. Both were competitive until half time but then faded away.


The first season will likely be them being on a steep learning curve and building up their squads.


Armchair Fan wrote:Martin Anayi on potential expansion to USA, Canada, Germany and Spain: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ain-canada



Here's another interview with Anayi. He says "very real prospects are emerging in Germany and Spain".


http://www.sportspromedia.com/quick_fir ... -new-world

Posts: 2957
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 06 Sep 2017, 03:41

What possible format could the Pro 14 change to with further expansion? The 7 team / 2 conference system makes sense right now. Expansion to 8 teams per conference can still work under the same format but it gets more complicated after 16 teams.

Posts: 414
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Wed, 06 Sep 2017, 11:03

thatrugbyguy wrote:What possible format could the Pro 14 change to with further expansion? The 7 team / 2 conference system makes sense right now. Expansion to 8 teams per conference can still work under the same format but it gets more complicated after 16 teams.


To preserve the derbies they will presumably organise the conferences by country eventually.

E.g.
Ire (4) + Sco (2) + Spain (1) =7
Wal (4) + Ita (2) + Ger (1) =7
RSA (6) + USA (1) = 7

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Figaro, Google Adsense [Bot], sammo, Working Class Rugger and 8 guests