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A Pro12 Expansion

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Horsehead » Wed, 06 Sep 2017, 11:14

Figaro wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:What possible format could the Pro 14 change to with further expansion? The 7 team / 2 conference system makes sense right now. Expansion to 8 teams per conference can still work under the same format but it gets more complicated after 16 teams.


To preserve the derbies they will presumably organise the conferences by country eventually.

E.g.
Ire (4) + Sco (2) + Spain (1) =7
Wal (4) + Ita (2) + Ger (1) =7
RSA (6) + USA (1) = 7


I think you are far more likely to get the US team grouped with the Irish

Ire (4) + Sco (2) + USA (1) =7
Wal (4) + Ita (2) + Spain (1) =7
RSA (6) + Ger (1) = 7

But I'm sure this could work - everyone plays the teams in their pool twice and 3 teams from each other pool once for 18 games. Top 2 from each conference plus the 2 best 3rd place teams make the quarters

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 06 Sep 2017, 12:33

I wonder whether Pro 14 is having serious discussions with FC Barcelona. It would sound crazy to me, but their rugby team, even if under their amateur branch, has made some impressive recruitments this preseason and they could easily jump from escaping relegation last season to play-off contenders in Spain.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 06 Sep 2017, 12:51

Armchair Fan wrote:I wonder whether Pro 14 is having serious discussions with FC Barcelona. It would sound crazy to me, but their rugby team, even if under their amateur branch, has made some impressive recruitments this preseason and they could easily jump from escaping relegation last season to play-off contenders in Spain.


And they've seen that rugby can fill Nou Camp + they have a smaller stadium with 15k (The Ex-NFL Europa team Barcelona Dragons played in it). Does indeed make some sense
For Germany something seems to be in the air. The name "Wild Titans" (used last time in 2009ish) for the Wild Rugby Academy project showed up a few times now, but never with explanation what it will stand for exactly.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 06 Sep 2017, 13:09

In fact that second stadium will be rebuilt to host 'only' 6,000, which sounds like the perfect size for Pro 14.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Wed, 06 Sep 2017, 13:46

Plus the money needed for a pro14 squad would be a drop in the ocean for Barcelona. The €180m+ they got a few weeks ago for a player transfer puts things into perspective.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 06 Sep 2017, 17:27

FC Barcelona is not a private company, but a members club.
They have some 100k members, and 47k voted for president in 2015.

Some club members want Barcelona to win football championships.
Others also want to win basketball championships.
And a few want other sports to be successful too.

Some candidates are more willing to invest money, others prefer to avoid deficit.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 00:21

Horsehead wrote:
Figaro wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:What possible format could the Pro 14 change to with further expansion? The 7 team / 2 conference system makes sense right now. Expansion to 8 teams per conference can still work under the same format but it gets more complicated after 16 teams.


To preserve the derbies they will presumably organise the conferences by country eventually.

E.g.
Ire (4) + Sco (2) + Spain (1) =7
Wal (4) + Ita (2) + Ger (1) =7
RSA (6) + USA (1) = 7


I think you are far more likely to get the US team grouped with the Irish

Ire (4) + Sco (2) + USA (1) =7
Wal (4) + Ita (2) + Spain (1) =7
RSA (6) + Ger (1) = 7

But I'm sure this could work - everyone plays the teams in their pool twice and 3 teams from each other pool once for 18 games. Top 2 from each conference plus the 2 best 3rd place teams make the quarters


I'd bet with the current goings on in SANZAAR we could see it more SA(6) + Arg.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 02:09

Horsehead wrote:
Figaro wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:What possible format could the Pro 14 change to with further expansion? The 7 team / 2 conference system makes sense right now. Expansion to 8 teams per conference can still work under the same format but it gets more complicated after 16 teams.


To preserve the derbies they will presumably organise the conferences by country eventually.

E.g.
Ire (4) + Sco (2) + Spain (1) =7
Wal (4) + Ita (2) + Ger (1) =7
RSA (6) + USA (1) = 7


I think you are far more likely to get the US team grouped with the Irish

Ire (4) + Sco (2) + USA (1) =7
Wal (4) + Ita (2) + Spain (1) =7
RSA (6) + Ger (1) = 7

But I'm sure this could work - everyone plays the teams in their pool twice and 3 teams from each other pool once for 18 games. Top 2 from each conference plus the 2 best 3rd place teams make the quarters


We're getting into Super Rugby territory here and this is what concerns me. Maybe the solution in the future is just to have everyone play each other once. I am generally in favour of home and away fixtures myself but I think once you start going beyond 16 teams the conference system starts to become complicated as what was shown in SR. Unless of course we simply go to a 2-league promotion and relegation system.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 02:57

thatrugbyguy wrote:
Horsehead wrote:
Figaro wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:What possible format could the Pro 14 change to with further expansion? The 7 team / 2 conference system makes sense right now. Expansion to 8 teams per conference can still work under the same format but it gets more complicated after 16 teams.


To preserve the derbies they will presumably organise the conferences by country eventually.

E.g.
Ire (4) + Sco (2) + Spain (1) =7
Wal (4) + Ita (2) + Ger (1) =7
RSA (6) + USA (1) = 7


I think you are far more likely to get the US team grouped with the Irish

Ire (4) + Sco (2) + USA (1) =7
Wal (4) + Ita (2) + Spain (1) =7
RSA (6) + Ger (1) = 7

But I'm sure this could work - everyone plays the teams in their pool twice and 3 teams from each other pool once for 18 games. Top 2 from each conference plus the 2 best 3rd place teams make the quarters


We're getting into Super Rugby territory here and this is what concerns me. Maybe the solution in the future is just to have everyone play each other once. I am generally in favour of home and away fixtures myself but I think once you start going beyond 16 teams the conference system starts to become complicated as what was shown in SR. Unless of course we simply go to a 2-league promotion and relegation system.


The conference system works fine as long as it's done logically. Which is what SR mucked up.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby carbonero » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 05:03

Working Class Rugger wrote: I'd bet with the current goings on in SANZAAR we could see it more SA(6) + Arg.

Don’t count us in. The Pro14 is a stretch too far for Argentina.

The time difference is better, the logistics are lees murky and we would be able to watch the away matches at decent hours. But Super Rugby has an allure that the Pro14 just doesn’t have. I don’t think it has ever been broadcasted here. So the TV, sponsor and match-day revenue wouldn’t be enough to fund the whole venture.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 07:59

carbonero wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote: I'd bet with the current goings on in SANZAAR we could see it more SA(6) + Arg.

Don’t count us in. The Pro14 is a stretch too far for Argentina.

The time difference is better, the logistics are lees murky and we would be able to watch the away matches at decent hours. But Super Rugby has an allure that the Pro14 just doesn’t have. I don’t think it has ever been broadcasted here. So the TV, sponsor and match-day revenue wouldn’t be enough to fund the whole venture.


The issue I see coming up is that if not the Pro14 then where? I am of the belief that SR is essentially a gonna. It's just treading water until someone fires the gun. I think if this new league finds its feet and succeeds then we'll see the Aus teams jump across pretty quickly.

I tend to believe SA is looking north with increasing enthusiasm and intent. If all those things come to pass then where will that leave Argentina?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Horsehead » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 08:47

Working Class Rugger wrote:
carbonero wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote: I'd bet with the current goings on in SANZAAR we could see it more SA(6) + Arg.

Don’t count us in. The Pro14 is a stretch too far for Argentina.

The time difference is better, the logistics are lees murky and we would be able to watch the away matches at decent hours. But Super Rugby has an allure that the Pro14 just doesn’t have. I don’t think it has ever been broadcasted here. So the TV, sponsor and match-day revenue wouldn’t be enough to fund the whole venture.


The issue I see coming up is that if not the Pro14 then where? I am of the belief that SR is essentially a gonna. It's just treading water until someone fires the gun. I think if this new league finds its feet and succeeds then we'll see the Aus teams jump across pretty quickly.

I tend to believe SA is looking north with increasing enthusiasm and intent. If all those things come to pass then where will that leave Argentina?


I agree. I think at sometime in the future there will be an Americas conference in pro rugby

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby iul » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 08:50

Working Class Rugger wrote:
carbonero wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote: I'd bet with the current goings on in SANZAAR we could see it more SA(6) + Arg.

Don’t count us in. The Pro14 is a stretch too far for Argentina.

The time difference is better, the logistics are lees murky and we would be able to watch the away matches at decent hours. But Super Rugby has an allure that the Pro14 just doesn’t have. I don’t think it has ever been broadcasted here. So the TV, sponsor and match-day revenue wouldn’t be enough to fund the whole venture.


The issue I see coming up is that if not the Pro14 then where? I am of the belief that SR is essentially a gonna. It's just treading water until someone fires the gun. I think if this new league finds its feet and succeeds then we'll see the Aus teams jump across pretty quickly.

I tend to believe SA is looking north with increasing enthusiasm and intent. If all those things come to pass then where will that leave Argentina?

Argentina would probably have to start another team, along with an Uruguayan one and 1-2 Brazilian ones as a conference in some sort of Americas Club Championship, maybe in the form of an expanded MLR.

EDIT: or they could start a South American championship with, say, 4 Arg teams, 1 Uru, 2 Br, and 1 Chilean.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 18:11

Pro14 should grow in Europe.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby carbonero » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 18:38

Working Class Rugger wrote: If all those things come to pass then where will that leave Argentina?

Out in the cold. Professional rugby has only two years in the country. It can go away as quick as it came.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby 4N » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 18:49

iul wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
carbonero wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote: I'd bet with the current goings on in SANZAAR we could see it more SA(6) + Arg.

Don’t count us in. The Pro14 is a stretch too far for Argentina.

The time difference is better, the logistics are lees murky and we would be able to watch the away matches at decent hours. But Super Rugby has an allure that the Pro14 just doesn’t have. I don’t think it has ever been broadcasted here. So the TV, sponsor and match-day revenue wouldn’t be enough to fund the whole venture.


The issue I see coming up is that if not the Pro14 then where? I am of the belief that SR is essentially a gonna. It's just treading water until someone fires the gun. I think if this new league finds its feet and succeeds then we'll see the Aus teams jump across pretty quickly.

I tend to believe SA is looking north with increasing enthusiasm and intent. If all those things come to pass then where will that leave Argentina?

Argentina would probably have to start another team, along with an Uruguayan one and 1-2 Brazilian ones as a conference in some sort of Americas Club Championship, maybe in the form of an expanded MLR.

EDIT: or they could start a South American championship with, say, 4 Arg teams, 1 Uru, 2 Br, and 1 Chilean.


You're getting more and more creative. I'd say Mexico will have pro rugby before some of the pro teams you describe, but we'll see...

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby NaBUru38 » Fri, 08 Sep 2017, 21:27

Argentine clubs are not interested at all in losing their status as premier teams.
Even the province championship has been compacted to five weeks.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bolaroid » Sat, 09 Sep 2017, 22:24

I'm not sure they're going to want to expand any more after the start the two South African sides have made, they're below the Italians! :oops:

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Sun, 10 Sep 2017, 10:03

I thought the Kings looked good in patches. They are still very disjointed but that's to be expected. Once the combinations start to click and they get used to different hemisphere etc they'll be much better.


The Cheetahs were disappointing. Extremely poor at the breakdown and they can't kick the ball properly. Their defending is poor too.


Still it's just rounds of games into their pro14 history. I'll start judging them in their second and third seasons.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bolaroid » Sun, 10 Sep 2017, 11:27

The Cheetahs & Kings home games will be interesting. Need to see an improvement.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sun, 10 Sep 2017, 11:38

The Kings squad is a mess and they are only starting to gel.

Cheetahs have:

- first and second choice fly halves injured
- head coach away with the Springboks
- four internationals unavailable (Mohoje injured I think)

Both sides will fade around December after such a long season so they needed early season points. I think they are already almost out of playoff contention due to their poor starts and their circumstances.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby eal22 » Mon, 11 Sep 2017, 00:56

I love this forum. Every tournament must expand to 32 teams with bizarre conference schedules and involve at least 12 countries in 7 time zones. The Pro14 risks going the way of Super Rugby if they aren't careful, chasing broadcast dollars above all else will inevitably fail.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby 4N » Tue, 12 Sep 2017, 10:57

Everything is going according to plan for Pro14, honest...

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugb ... 606573.amp

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Tue, 12 Sep 2017, 11:00

They don't say when it will happen though. Presumably next season?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 12 Sep 2017, 14:26

So according to this an US and a German franchise.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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