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A Pro12 Expansion

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bolaroid » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 06:41

BelgraviaW wrote:Canada also have franchises but American and Canada share economic, political and cultural connections as I outlined before.

- Time difference between the most Eastern and Western franchise is 3 hours.

The SA clubs joining Pro12 I can understand from a financial perspective (At least in the short term) and time zone perspective. It is still 11 hours to fly from London to Johannesburg so it may be draining on the players.

It might have escaped your notice, but the USA & British Isles also share fairly deep economic, political and cultural connections.

The time difference to the East coast US from the British Isles is 5 hours, just 2 hours extra and significantly shorter than the 11 hours to Jo'berg.

The only concern I have is whether a US team would be good enough. They're a country that likes winners, and of course the success of the expedition would largely be judged on how well they'd compete.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby amz » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 06:57

is this the thread with most posts last month? and is not even about T2 ;)

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 07:18

BelgraviaW wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
BelgraviaW wrote:
victorsra wrote:Well, all american leagues have conferences. And USA has different time zones. The only different thing from PRO14 or Super Rugby is that American leagues have all teams in the same continent. It is a big difference, of course. What you really want to say with "conferences" and "time zones"?

I clearly told you that the time zone are compatible for audiences wherever in America they live in. LA is 3 hours behind New York. I use those cities as examples as one is on the East Coast. The other is on the West Coast.

Tell a Boston Red Sox fan their team is playing in Dublin followed by a week in Parma. You really think that would work in Rugby?


American sports are very much in the form of conferences. NFC and AFC both with a North and South. Similar in other leagues like the NBA etc. So there are examples of other leagues around the world using conference structure.

As for timezones. I think you'll find SA has a timezone that aligns fairly well with that of London (and 3 of the 4 Pro14 countries. In fact I think its in the same timezone as Italy. So all four). It's only around an hour ahead. So that's no real issue. I agree with the East Coast of the US. It's a bit of a stretch. But scheduling can help on that front. If that is in fact where it goes. Personally I hope not. I prefer to see MLR develop and the resources that would be focused on a Pro? entrant would be better used in that competition.

It's pretty obvious that the conference system is being used more for the sake of convenience and structure than timezones. They don't want to go the Top14 route and this allows them to develop a manageable schedule that keeps travel relatively in control.


People have misinterpreted my original post. I am very well aware (as a enthusiastic NBA and NFL fan) that Americans use conference system in nearly every sport.

I was stating that the conference systems in America are effective and clearly successful and even more clearly the conference systems and short sighted expansion have destroyed Super Rugby.

BUT conferences suit basketball and American football etc because

- The major cities are spread right across the continent AND cities are located in one country. Canada also have franchises but American and Canada share economic, political and cultural connections as I outlined before.

- Time difference between the most Eastern and Western franchise is 3 hours.

- Flight time between the most Eastern and Western franchise is 6 hours.

The SA clubs joining Pro12 I can understand from a financial perspective (At least in the short term) and time zone perspective. It is still 11 hours to fly from London to Johannesburg so it may be draining on the players.

But inclusion of North American and South American teams is just sheer stupidity.


The conference system in SR isn't so much the issue. Irate general make up of them that is. When it first came in it was 3 x 5 with 8 in conference games and 8 inter conference games.

I doubt it would have been a big issue if the expanded that format to 3 x 6 with the Sunwolves entering the AIs conference and Jaguares the NZ (no tougher than there schedule so far but at least the flights between NZ and Arg are direct. SA could form their own conference.

Ten in conference games and 6-8 inter conference games. Perfect . I suspect everyone would have been happy. But that's not what we got.

I suspect it is what we'll see if (when) the rest of the SA franchise jump ship. Three by six that is.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 07:48

amz wrote:is this the thread with most posts last month? and is not even about T2 ;)


Actually really interesting, because we all thought, that at least one tier2 nation would be added if expansion would happen. Unbelievable they somehow made it to expand AND leave T2 completly out of this - AGAIN. :roll:
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Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 08:07

RugbyLiebe wrote:
amz wrote:is this the thread with most posts last month? and is not even about T2 ;)


Actually really interesting, because we all thought, that at least one tier2 nation would be added if expansion would happen. Unbelievable they somehow made it to expand AND leave T2 completly out of this - AGAIN. :roll:


They are making clear noises (including in their initial press release) that this is only the start of expansion. I'm sure at least one Tier2 nation will get their chance should they so desire.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Horsehead » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 08:33

Yep, they would have expanded into the US by now if they could

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby amz » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 09:05

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
amz wrote:is this the thread with most posts last month? and is not even about T2 ;)


Actually really interesting, because we all thought, that at least one tier2 nation would be added if expansion would happen. Unbelievable they somehow made it to expand AND leave T2 completly out of this - AGAIN. :roll:

They are making clear noises (including in their initial press release) that this is only the start of expansion. I'm sure at least one Tier2 nation will get their chance should they so desire.


The amounts of money they ask makes impossible for any T2 nation to join on next 3-5 years, even for rich countries as US/Canada/Germany/Spain

Pro12 expansion will be only about money, as is this one.
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 11:05

Yep, if there is a total South African move, the PRO X will be far from T2s, not only because of money, but because South Africans will push the level far beyond T2s possibilities.

However, a city like NY or a major sports club like FC Barcelona would be allowed if they subvert the Super Rugby logic to have players from many countries. This would keep T2 players away from the league anyway.

T2s would only benefit from transnational leagues if those were not closed leagues. Otherwise, it is a vicious circle. T1s are searching for markets that T2s can't offer now. This is a very difficult equation and with French and English moneyleagues' pression countries like Ireland, Wales or Scotland won't be doing favors for T2s. And T2s need international appeal to make rugby an sport able to compete with other sports for money/media/supporters/govnt supoort in those countries.

It is clear that the only countries that were embraced by the traditional 8 powers are Argentina, Japan and Italy, were those that had a very well developed domestic scenario before steping into the T1s competitions.

*Italy is in a long term work to screw itself, but the Italian League and the Italian market were in 2000 much more developed than the rest of Europe at that moment. Yes, Romania had always been stronger than Italy, but in 2000 the scenario favored Italy, as we were in the professional era and Italy had the money, the national league, the supporters (and they are still there!).

World Rugby's model of development, that is being exported to T3s, must be discussed too. Apart from national teams, let's look to the other kind of WR's investiment: tag rugby. I like the "Get into Rugby", but how it will make rugby communities stronger? You can teach kids tag rugby, but how do you do to make them steping into club rugby if clubs in T3s are usualy poor entities? WR has a plan of investment that boosts the top and the very botton of the pyramide, but it keeps the middle untouched. And it is the middle of the pyramide the biggest issue now. Nobody in the world of T2s and T3s has a plan for the middle of the pyramide! Everybody believes that the middle will grow pushed either by the national teams or by tag rugby schoolkids. And it is not true.
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby amz » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 13:04

victorsra wrote:World Rugby's model of development, that is being exported to T3s, must be discussed too. Apart from national teams, let's look to the other kind of WR's investiment: tag rugby. I like the "Get into Rugby", but how it will make rugby communities stronger? You can teach kids tag rugby, but how do you do to make them steping into club rugby if clubs in T3s are usualy poor entities? WR has a plan of investment that boosts the top and the very botton of the pyramide, but it keeps the middle untouched. And it is the middle of the pyramide the biggest issue now. Nobody in the world of T2s and T3s has a plan for the middle of the pyramide! Everybody believes that the middle will grow pushed either by the national teams or by tag rugby schoolkids. And it is not true.


It is mostly supposed to deal with raising awarness towards rugby. You have strong rugby when you have a good base of fans to work with. It's also very good for those that can't play a contact sport, also useful to scout early kids that may have a future in this sport.

The middle is supposed to be the responsibility of ever union, to thrive for better administration, standards and so on and to encourage clubs to follow certain paths to develop. An example I know, FRR encouraged few years ago the clubs to use social media, even organized some conferences to present the benefits and more and recently national team staff offered to participate to training sessions to clubs and still FRR is criticized because does little to nothing toward grassroots rugby and social rugby. I guess every Union have its goods and bads. You cannot ask WR to have plans for what you call the middle, especially regarding clubs; Yeah it could help some unions with money for coaches and stuff like this but I don't see how can they involve in semi pro rugby which is played in most T2 countries.

Of course WR should think to ways to help this middle, so far it seems that one way is more exposure for T2 teams (Brazil playing in Romania is one example and new plan from 2019 onwards) as they recognized national teams can play a locomotive role for the entire sport in the respective countries. I guess this is one of the ways they'll help out at this level but I don't see how they can help out in relations with professional leagues as these are private ventures...

I think each country should try to find its own path. Brazil should look to organize own professional competition and eventually merge it with some Argentinean/Uruguayan teams; Uruguay joining Argentinean system is another example. Elsewhere in Europe, Romania is building a pro league, Italy look to expand or develop Eccellenza, Georgia is looking for solutions etc. But the solutions are particular for every country...

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 13:57

Yes, I agree with you. I understand too how crucial the WR's Get Into Rugby program. It is essential.

About the middle of the pyramide, I look to Brazil and I believe most T3s and maybe T2s (according to that article in the USA Rugby thread North America suffers from the same) national unions act just like World Rugby: they see as their problem just the high performance program and the Get into Rugby/Tag Rugby programs. In Brazil it is common to hear from the Brazilian Rugby Union that their work is with the high performance program and that club rugby is a problem of the clubs and the regional unions.

Maybe Romania is different and as I see Romania has one of the best T2s national leagues (maybe the best senior club rugby structure, together with Russia).

What I see is that almost nobody wants to take responsibility of the middle of the pyramide. Without the middle, most of the kids rugby work becomes more a (positive) marketing work than a complete development work. And the high performance (either national teams or super franchises) will always lack depth.

Maybe what would be important is to have a global development work group to analyse each countries/regions scenario and propose models. Rugby is just fluctuating between models to find a best imediate economic model. Which is not necessarily the best model to think about its own future. It is more a present survive mode. We need more proper knowlodge behind the actions.
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby amz » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 14:31

I think the unions don't have the instruments to do this, except the organization based on franchises where respective Unions are stakeholders or have some sort of involvement/say.

FRR made some steps in this regards, SL is their brand, true they had support from clubs, they supported local stakeholders in negotiating support for clubs, sometimes successful, sometime not, they tried to tutor clubs in some fields but this was always limited, the real development, reaching certain standards etc. is club's responsibility in the end. You need to have the instruments first to do this...

Maybe what would be important is to have a global development work group to analyse each countries/regions scenario and propose models. Rugby is just fluctuating between models to find a best imediate economic model.


I like this idea but do you realize that 80% of administrators from T1 countries are unaware of what is happening outside their cartel ? :lol:

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bolaroid » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 15:02

victorsra wrote:Yep, if there is a total South African move, the PRO X will be far from T2s, not only because of money, but because South Africans will push the level far beyond T2s possibilities.

I don't see why this will be the case. The SA resources are spread across 6 teams. If a T2 nation can get their best players into one team e.g. Georgia, they should be competitive at least to mid-table standard.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby amz » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 15:16

Bolaroid wrote:
victorsra wrote:Yep, if there is a total South African move, the PRO X will be far from T2s, not only because of money, but because South Africans will push the level far beyond T2s possibilities.

I don't see why this will be the case. The SA resources are spread across 6 teams. If a T2 nation can get their best players into one team e.g. Georgia, they should be competitive at least to mid-table standard.


I don't think the players are the problem but the financing for a such a team and SA is pushing further even in this sector. In fact, that's why they got accepted in the first place :)

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bolaroid » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 16:18

amz wrote:I don't think the players are the problem but the financing for a such a team and SA is pushing further even in this sector. In fact, that's why they got accepted in the first place :)

Indeed, but victorsra appeared to be indicating beyond money and towards performance.

The Pro 12 were said to be in discussions with Georgia, but now no longer seem to speak of it. It would be interesting to know how far short their financial offer to join fell of what was required.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 16:52

BelgraviaW wrote:No other sporting competition in any code in any part of the world uses ridiculous conferences and time zones.

KHL. Even more ridiculous than Super Rugby.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Wed, 02 Aug 2017, 23:13

Indeed, but victorsra appeared to be indicating beyond money and towards performance.


I think the whole package. Players at the moment + depth of youth players for the near future + money to kickoff + long-term commercial sustainable plan + good venue + attendances + TV audiences, the relevance of new broadcast contracts and their potential to grow in the near future.... to be in a year long professional long it is not enough to have just a couple of these things. PRO12 has a delicate situation with the Italians and the Dragons, they need their new teams to be have a more solid plan with more perspectives than those three teams at least. They can't afford more problems.

I like this idea but do you realize that 80% of administrators from T1 countries are unaware of what is happening outside their cartel ? :lol:


Yep :cry:

It would be a good step to have a WR-supported think tank focused on global development, with people from different areas working together (coaches, former players and referees, rugby educators, sports scientists, social scientists, economists, marketing/media experts, international/government relations experts... not a big group, because there isn't that much money, but a good diverse one with expertise in sports)
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 08:21

There will be NO expansion for Georgia or Romania anytime soon if the financial part will be the same in the future. With those money both countries can do much more in their own yard than put a team in Pro12/14.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 14:10

This is a very interesting discussion. The problem with the Pro12 conference system is that it doesn't really cut down on travel at all or foster any real rivalries regionally. North American countries Conferences and are divided in to Divisions based on geography. In the NHL, Conferences are split east/west with further splitting occurring at the Division level (i.e. Northeast, south east, midwest, etc). Teams play more games against there division teams, some games are interconference and a few are against the other conference. This allows for regional rivalries to be established. I.E. Montreal plays Toronto/Boston 5 times because they are in the same division. They play games against the teams in the rest of their conference 3 times and they play 2 games against each team in the other conference.

Every American sport league functions in a somewhat similar manner and what this allows for is regional rivalries to be properly nurtured. Montreal, Toronto, Boston, Ottawa, Buffalo and Detroit all have long standing rivalries and they are close enough that fans can also travel.

The Pro12 doesn't have this and I'm not certain they will be able to develop it. I've said earlier, I think the only Pro Rugby leagues that have done things right are in England and France. I think Romania, Russia and Japan Top League are on the right track but everyone else is treading water.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 14:30

Canadian_Rugger wrote:This is a very interesting discussion. The problem with the Pro12 conference system is that it doesn't really cut down on travel at all or foster any real rivalries regionally. North American countries Conferences and are divided in to Divisions based on geography. In the NHL, Conferences are split east/west with further splitting occurring at the Division level (i.e. Northeast, south east, midwest, etc). Teams play more games against there division teams, some games are interconference and a few are against the other conference. This allows for regional rivalries to be established. I.E. Montreal plays Toronto/Boston 5 times because they are in the same division. They play games against the teams in the rest of their conference 3 times and they play 2 games against each team in the other conference.

Every American sport league functions in a somewhat similar manner and what this allows for is regional rivalries to be properly nurtured. Montreal, Toronto, Boston, Ottawa, Buffalo and Detroit all have long standing rivalries and they are close enough that fans can also travel.

The Pro12 doesn't have this and I'm not certain they will be able to develop it. I've said earlier, I think the only Pro Rugby leagues that have done things right are in England and France. I think Romania, Russia and Japan Top League are on the right track but everyone else is treading water.


I think Super Rugby as it was with 15 teams (5 each from each country with each conference being one whole country's set of teams) is the right way to go about things with conferences, which is why it would have made the best sense when going to 18 teams to have 3x6 team conferences and simply put the SunWolves in with Australia and the Argies with NZ, as dozens of people on here have suggested (and which is also somewhat like what the new 15 team system will look like).

That would be a lot harder to do with the Pro14 for a number of reasons: 1) because the number of teams from each country varies so much, 2) because 14 can't be split symmetrically into more than two, 3) the Italians complicate matters by being so awful, 4) the travel is very lopsided with the South Africans massively futher away from all the other sides (in Super Rugby, everyone had to fly thousands of miles no matter how you arranged it, so this was less of a problem).

In the longer run I can see the conferences being arranged geographically, but that might need more sides to join.

e.g. a South African Conference with 6 sides, and two European conferences with 6 each (Ireland/Scotland and Wales/Italy).

Whether or not the South Africans all move from Super Rugby to the ProX in the mid term, if the move is a success you might even see additional Pro SA sides, e.g. the Currie Cup Steval Pumas get average crowds of 13k, higher than most existing Pro12 sides.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Suiram » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 14:43

Canadian_Rugger wrote:This is a very interesting discussion. The problem with the Pro12 conference system is that it doesn't really cut down on travel at all or foster any real rivalries regionally. North American countries Conferences and are divided in to Divisions based on geography. In the NHL, Conferences are split east/west with further splitting occurring at the Division level (i.e. Northeast, south east, midwest, etc). Teams play more games against there division teams, some games are interconference and a few are against the other conference. This allows for regional rivalries to be established. I.E. Montreal plays Toronto/Boston 5 times because they are in the same division. They play games against the teams in the rest of their conference 3 times and they play 2 games against each team in the other conference.

Every American sport league functions in a somewhat similar manner and what this allows for is regional rivalries to be properly nurtured. Montreal, Toronto, Boston, Ottawa, Buffalo and Detroit all have long standing rivalries and they are close enough that fans can also travel.

The Pro12 doesn't have this and I'm not certain they will be able to develop it. I've said earlier, I think the only Pro Rugby leagues that have done things right are in England and France. I think Romania, Russia and Japan Top League are on the right track but everyone else is treading water.


Good points. Regional rivalries are important but it's not just regional. A lot of rivalries come from decades or shared history. Famous playoff defeats/upsets. Disputed trades etc that have built a lot of back story into the way different teams are viewed. Keep in mind they aren't always nearby. Dallas-DC, New England - Miami, Denver-New England etc. these are all 3+ hour flights.

I see two issues for Pro12 and rugby clubs in general. 1st often these cross border teams have had little time to develop rivalries/history. Part of the problem is also consistency. Need some stability to grow them. But maybe with 20 years of similar teams rivalries outside of the country can develop.

2nd and this is maybe wrong but most American leagues represent the ultimate level of the sport. That is winning the World Series or super bowl is the ultimate goal and biggest thing to be achieved. Rugby has the complexity of national teams and international tests kind of confusing the situation. I know people say some fans are club first - country second. But I'd guess the "casuals" are the reverse.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Thomas » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 14:52

Figaro wrote:Er, no, the Cheetahs and Kings were kicked out of Super Rugby already. That's why they've joined the Pro12.


I meant Currie Cup! How they going to manage the logistics and depth of players. Surely the Cheetahs in particular want to defend their title? Also the Kings would be pushing for promotion into Premier league..

As other people have stated where is the inclusion of T2 Clubs? something is not right.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 15:18

Canadian_Rugger wrote:This is a very interesting discussion. The problem with the Pro12 conference system is that it doesn't really cut down on travel at all or foster any real rivalries regionally. North American countries Conferences and are divided in to Divisions based on geography. In the NHL, Conferences are split east/west with further splitting occurring at the Division level (i.e. Northeast, south east, midwest, etc). Teams play more games against there division teams, some games are interconference and a few are against the other conference. This allows for regional rivalries to be established. I.E. Montreal plays Toronto/Boston 5 times because they are in the same division. They play games against the teams in the rest of their conference 3 times and they play 2 games against each team in the other conference.

Every American sport league functions in a somewhat similar manner and what this allows for is regional rivalries to be properly nurtured. Montreal, Toronto, Boston, Ottawa, Buffalo and Detroit all have long standing rivalries and they are close enough that fans can also travel.

The Pro12 doesn't have this and I'm not certain they will be able to develop it. I've said earlier, I think the only Pro Rugby leagues that have done things right are in England and France. I think Romania, Russia and Japan Top League are on the right track but everyone else is treading water.


The above is all fair, particularly for Scotland, Italy and South Africa that have only one other team from their country to have a derby with, and they aren't even in the same conference.

I think the Pro12 have been focussed on trying to increase the chances of the conferences being balanced and competitive. Probably out of observing the consequences for Super Rugby as the standard of Oz clubs goes down the toilet. I think this was the right approach for them given questionmarks over the likely ability of the Italian sides, South African sides (both losing three of their top players possibly), Edinburgh and Dragons.

The format will have to be revisited when they expand again (probably the season after this one if rumours are to be believed) and the format will have to be tinkered with and reviewed naturally as part of that.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Horsehead » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 15:58

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:
Canadian_Rugger wrote:This is a very interesting discussion. The problem with the Pro12 conference system is that it doesn't really cut down on travel at all or foster any real rivalries regionally. North American countries Conferences and are divided in to Divisions based on geography. In the NHL, Conferences are split east/west with further splitting occurring at the Division level (i.e. Northeast, south east, midwest, etc). Teams play more games against there division teams, some games are interconference and a few are against the other conference. This allows for regional rivalries to be established. I.E. Montreal plays Toronto/Boston 5 times because they are in the same division. They play games against the teams in the rest of their conference 3 times and they play 2 games against each team in the other conference.

Every American sport league functions in a somewhat similar manner and what this allows for is regional rivalries to be properly nurtured. Montreal, Toronto, Boston, Ottawa, Buffalo and Detroit all have long standing rivalries and they are close enough that fans can also travel.

The Pro12 doesn't have this and I'm not certain they will be able to develop it. I've said earlier, I think the only Pro Rugby leagues that have done things right are in England and France. I think Romania, Russia and Japan Top League are on the right track but everyone else is treading water.


The above is all fair, particularly for Scotland, Italy and South Africa that have only one other team from their country to have a derby with, and they aren't even in the same conference.

I think the Pro12 have been focussed on trying to increase the chances of the conferences being balanced and competitive. Probably out of observing the consequences for Super Rugby as the standard of Oz clubs goes down the toilet. I think this was the right approach for them given questionmarks over the likely ability of the Italian sides, South African sides (both losing three of their top players possibly), Edinburgh and Dragons.

The format will have to be revisited when they expand again (probably the season after this one if rumours are to be believed) and the format will have to be tinkered with and reviewed naturally as part of that.


Isn't there a US team based out of Washington meant to be joining next season? If so I guess it will be 3 conferences of 5 so play everyone in your pool twice and everyone else once for 18 games. Not sure how they would be able to work out additional derby games though

I wonder how long it will be until American and South African teams are invited to join the champions cup?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 16:02

There were two bids for expansion that apparently were not awarded thanks to the South African folly.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 17:33

SOME obvious welfare CONCERNS

1) Cheetahs and Kings started current season in Feb 2017 and
would finish by May 2018 -- after 15 months

2) European sides will visit RSA in southern summer,
and then go back to northern winter!
S.africans - the other way!

3) From XIX century, there was NO Rugby in SA from Nov to Jan
Would crowd go to Guinness PRO14 instead of cricket?

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