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A Pro12 Expansion

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby amz » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 17:43

TheStroBro wrote:There were two bids for expansion that apparently were not awarded thanks to the South African folly.


Georgia and US based franchises? Pity than...

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Horsehead » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 18:34

TheStroBro wrote:There were two bids for expansion that apparently were not awarded thanks to the South African folly.


What two teams? Do you have a link for this?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Thomas » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 19:38

Horsehead wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:There were two bids for expansion that apparently were not awarded thanks to the South African folly.


What two teams? Do you have a link for this?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40464201

It states they were exploring 2 American franchises it doesn't say anything about any bids.

The Guardian also mentioned expansion plans in Houston:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... houston-us

And American News talked about a DC Team: http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2017/0 ... o-12-2018/

All news reports but nothing concrete, I think PRO12 had their eye on SA all along based on the reports from early April.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Horsehead » Thu, 03 Aug 2017, 20:26

I thought the original plan was Houston but this was changed to DC. I thought it was just one team and they were never going to be joining this year, always 2018

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Sables4EVA » Fri, 04 Aug 2017, 06:23

Maybe everyone is banking on a global season set up which was discussed a few years ago.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Fri, 04 Aug 2017, 07:28

There's been plenty of talk about US franchises. It's always been made clear though that there would be only one, based on the best bid; and there is nothing to indicate that it would have been introduced this year if it weren't for the Cheetahs and Kings.

Any new US franchise will be a brand new team, they will need at least a few months to recruit a squad, do some marketing, and sort out everything else required to set up a professional sports team from scratch. I don't think there's any reason whatosever to think they might have been ready for 2017-18.

Additionally, the door to North America is still quite clearly open for the next few years at least. I don't think the SA teams have affected this in any way.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 04 Aug 2017, 07:30

Sables4EVA wrote:Maybe everyone is banking on a global season set up which was discussed a few years ago.


You mean the agreement made in March 2017? http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/blogs/is ... unds-77555
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Fri, 04 Aug 2017, 10:37

Head of Pro14 says "...we aim to be at the forefront of the game’s growth around the world.”

http://www.pro14rugby.org/2017/08/04/ne ... gue-world/

Nothing like a bit of self preservation to suddenly recognise the existence of Tier2 nations! Whatever the motivations I'm very happy about this and the opportunities it might provide.

The closed shop has become economically unsustainable due to the inability of Tier1 nations to cooperate and minimise salary inequality. It is going to become a free for all for the Pro14 and Super Rugby to cultivate and expand into new markets in both hemispheres.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 04 Aug 2017, 11:26

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:Head of Pro14 says "...we aim to be at the forefront of the game’s growth around the world.”

http://www.pro14rugby.org/2017/08/04/ne ... gue-world/

Nothing like a bit of self preservation to suddenly recognise the existence of Tier2 nations! Whatever the motivations I'm very happy about this and the opportunities it might provide.

The closed shop has become economically unsustainable due to the inability of Tier1 nations to cooperate and minimise salary inequality. It is going to become a free for all for the Pro14 and Super Rugby to cultivate and expand into new markets in both hemispheres.


Most multicultural league in the world :lol:
You need a "special" person not able to speak more than one language, to ever claim this about this league with just two languages (English, Italian, maybe 3 if you ad Africaans). There are way bigger differences in German or French culture than between all those Ex-Empire-nations or UK "countries". Would even be even more "multi-cultural" if they added a non-northern Italian team.

And as long as they don't really grow anything, I call bullshit on that marketing claim as well. (Still would really love to be proved false here).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Fri, 04 Aug 2017, 12:11

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Bruce_ma_goose wrote:Head of Pro14 says "...we aim to be at the forefront of the game’s growth around the world.”

http://www.pro14rugby.org/2017/08/04/ne ... gue-world/

Nothing like a bit of self preservation to suddenly recognise the existence of Tier2 nations! Whatever the motivations I'm very happy about this and the opportunities it might provide.

The closed shop has become economically unsustainable due to the inability of Tier1 nations to cooperate and minimise salary inequality. It is going to become a free for all for the Pro14 and Super Rugby to cultivate and expand into new markets in both hemispheres.


Most multicultural league in the world :lol:
You need a "special" person not able to speak more than one language, to ever claim this about this league with just two languages (English, Italian, maybe 3 if you ad Africaans). There are way bigger differences in German or French culture than between all those Ex-Empire-nations or UK "countries". Would even be even more "multi-cultural" if they added a non-northern Italian team.

And as long as they don't really grow anything, I call bullshit on that marketing claim as well. (Still would really love to be proved false here).


Pro12 games are broadcast in Welsh, Irish and Scots Gaelic as well as English and Italian. There are many languages in the league.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Lord Lamp » Fri, 04 Aug 2017, 12:41

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Bruce_ma_goose wrote:Head of Pro14 says "...we aim to be at the forefront of the game’s growth around the world.”

http://www.pro14rugby.org/2017/08/04/ne ... gue-world/

Nothing like a bit of self preservation to suddenly recognise the existence of Tier2 nations! Whatever the motivations I'm very happy about this and the opportunities it might provide.

The closed shop has become economically unsustainable due to the inability of Tier1 nations to cooperate and minimise salary inequality. It is going to become a free for all for the Pro14 and Super Rugby to cultivate and expand into new markets in both hemispheres.


Most multicultural league in the world :lol:
You need a "special" person not able to speak more than one language, to ever claim this about this league with just two languages (English, Italian, maybe 3 if you ad Africaans). There are way bigger differences in German or French culture than between all those Ex-Empire-nations or UK "countries". Would even be even more "multi-cultural" if they added a non-northern Italian team.

And as long as they don't really grow anything, I call bullshit on that marketing claim as well. (Still would really love to be proved false here).



Don't be so disrespectful. Ireland might share a lot of similarities with the UK just like any other European nation like Germany, but we also have our unique culture that differs from the UK, we have our own language , our own form dancing and music, our own sports. Please don't label my country as an ex empire country, you seem to forget that after Germany was defeated you were occupied by the British empire after WW2 ;)

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 04 Aug 2017, 13:14

Lord Lamp wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Most multicultural league in the world :lol:
You need a "special" person not able to speak more than one language, to ever claim this about this league with just two languages (English, Italian, maybe 3 if you ad Africaans). There are way bigger differences in German or French culture than between all those Ex-Empire-nations or UK "countries". Would even be even more "multi-cultural" if they added a non-northern Italian team.

And as long as they don't really grow anything, I call bullshit on that marketing claim as well. (Still would really love to be proved false here).


Don't be so disrespectful. Ireland might share a lot of similarities with the UK just like any other European nation like Germany, but we also have our unique culture that differs from the UK, we have our own language , our own form dancing and music, our own sports. Please don't label my country as an ex empire country, you seem to forget that after Germany was defeated you were occupied by the British empire after WW2 ;)


What has the cultural similiarity between Ireland and GB and a war 70 years ago have to do? I mean it is not like we changed our language to English afterwards.

I stand to my word, that the differences between Ireland and England or Scotland or Wales are just marginally compared to the intern differences of i.e. in France, Italy or Germany. All of us continental Europeans just don't continue to brag that we are different countries in another countries. Maybe we all are a mix of every possible other country over the centuries. Lets be honest GB and Ireland are more or less a mix of GB and Ireland and some French 700 years and some Vikings 900 years ago. And we are not counting the modern Indian or Turkish or whatever immigrants to simplify things. You know, not living on an island helps to have bigger cultural differences within one country ;-)

Especially from the Irish I've heard so much ignorance over the years, that it always surprises me. An Irish expat living in Munich already for two years (off course without even slightly trying to learn the language) claimed that there are no accents in Germany. When I tried to speak English with my Bavarian accent (a lot like Schwarzenegger, as he actually speaks a mxiture of North- ,Middle- and Southern Bavarian), she didn't answer. The next day her Australian boyfriend told me, that she thought I was yelling at her :lol:

So while I do like the Irish culture, don't think it is as unique as you state it is. And the claim of the Pro14 is so much more over the top, that it is simply laughable.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Lord Lamp » Fri, 04 Aug 2017, 13:31

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Lord Lamp wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Most multicultural league in the world :lol:
You need a "special" person not able to speak more than one language, to ever claim this about this league with just two languages (English, Italian, maybe 3 if you ad Africaans). There are way bigger differences in German or French culture than between all those Ex-Empire-nations or UK "countries". Would even be even more "multi-cultural" if they added a non-northern Italian team.

And as long as they don't really grow anything, I call bullshit on that marketing claim as well. (Still would really love to be proved false here).


Don't be so disrespectful. Ireland might share a lot of similarities with the UK just like any other European nation like Germany, but we also have our unique culture that differs from the UK, we have our own language , our own form dancing and music, our own sports. Please don't label my country as an ex empire country, you seem to forget that after Germany was defeated you were occupied by the British empire after WW2 ;)


What has the cultural similiarity between Ireland and GB and a war 70 years ago have to do? I mean it is not like we changed our language to English afterwards.

I stand to my word, that the differences between Ireland and England or Scotland or Wales are just marginally compared to the intern differences of i.e. in France, Italy or Germany. All of us continental Europeans just don't continue to brag that we are different countries in another countries. Maybe we all are a mix of every possible other country over the centuries. Lets be honest GB and Ireland are more or less a mix of GB and Ireland and some French 700 years and some Vikings 900 years ago. And we are not counting the modern Indian or Turkish or whatever immigrants to simplify things. You know, not living on an island helps to have bigger cultural differences within one country ;-)

Especially from the Irish I've heard so much ignorance over the years, that it always surprises me. An Irish expat living in Munich already for two years (off course without even slightly trying to learn the language) claimed that there are no accents in Germany. When I tried to speak English with my Bavarian accent (a lot like Schwarzenegger, as he actually speaks a mxiture of North- ,Middle- and Southern Bavarian), she didn't answer. The next day her Australian boyfriend told me, that she thought I was yelling at her :lol:

So while I do like the Irish culture, don't think it is as unique as you state it is. And the claim of the Pro14 is so much more over the top, that it is simply laughable.[/qu

Having the same language means we have the same culture :lol: :lol: :lol:

Meeting one Irish person has shaped your view that all Irish are ignorant........ Seems like a pretty ignorant view to me, do I now assume all Germans are ignorant :lol:

I am not claiming we have different cultures it is simply a fact. Do we share similarities with our neighbours, yes naturally

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Fri, 04 Aug 2017, 18:14

I've heard opinions about the Bavarian accent alright. :lol: Just goes to show how even towns and cities develop their own culture.


Regarding culture, it doesn't matter anyway because these days ALL cultures are merging into one globalised culture and they call that multiculturism when it is in fact destroying real cultures.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 04 Aug 2017, 19:16

Lord Lamp wrote:

Having the same language means we have the same culture :lol: :lol: :lol:

Meeting one Irish person has shaped your view that all Irish are ignorant........ Seems like a pretty ignorant view to me, do I now assume all Germans are ignorant :lol:

I am not claiming we have different cultures it is simply a fact. Do we share similarities with our neighbours, yes naturally


And it would be really ignorant as you had overread "over the years" and I've never even said that apart from English there aren't more languages spoken in GB & Ireland.

I stayed many weeks in Ireland, I travel to the UK every year and I've been to both Australia (three months altogether) and New Zealand. And apart from the Maori influence in NZ the culture is really close together in all of this countries. And you know I live in one of the most visited cities in the world, Munich. So I do get my fsir share of joyful experiences with people from all over the world.

I actually never stated I din't like the culture overall. One of my sons actually has an Irish name often used in bavaria, but that doesn't stop me from stating the most multicultural league in the world is an utter bullshit Pro14 claim.

I am stating this is a typical claim from the British cultural circle, which makes the impression that it is written by ignorant fools and certain British are known for and which is associated with a rather British Empire point of view and yes Ireland is part of that cultural circle.

You could have answered what it is that really differs the Irish from the British cultural circle and off course there are some mentality differences. But you chose to try to brand me as ignorant, when you simply don't understand that those differences wouldn't be enough in every other big European country (I forgot the most diverse Spain) to be branded as multicultural. Happy enough.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Fri, 04 Aug 2017, 21:22

I'm unclear why anyone would be so animated on this. I think Pro14 is more multicultural than Super Rugby and no other league comes into the conversation (so the gods only know why you mention Bavaria).

I have to say RugbyLiebe you do come across as not fully aware of cultural diversity between and within countries.

The island of Ireland consists of very distinct provinces with utterly different majority political, religious and linguistic variations.

To suggest Wales and Scotland are less culturally diverse than Germany and Austria, or France and Wallonia or Luxembourg, or Denmark and Sweden etc etc is without any basis I'm aware of.

Italy is culturally distinct from the others, which goes without saying.

Plus the countries of the British Isles are highly multicultural in general and specifically in terms of rugby steal players from all manner of cultures to play in their leagues and become project players (like the great Irishman Bundee Aki, who plays alongside a Nigerian Adeloykun incidentally). There is no doubt that Pro14 will have players from a wider range of countries and cultures than Super Rugby.

Finally, the Kings in some ways are culturally distinct from the other Super Rugby teams of South Africa, being the only one that is not dominated by the ethnic European minorities of that country.

So all in all, you say bullshit - but you'll need to present a better case than you have done so far if you expect many people with experience and knowledge of the Pro14 and their constituent countries to consider your argument as having merit. That is if you want to split hairs with a perfectly innocuous press release.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby ihateblazers » Sat, 05 Aug 2017, 00:58

It wouldn't surprise me if they kicked the Italians out next year instead of expanding. The comment about being at the forefront of growth around the world is a load of shit at the moment. Reluctantly going with an option on a platter in the rejected SA sides, which was brought to the attention of the pro 12 by south Africans, is not exactly taking the initiative.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Sat, 05 Aug 2017, 01:24

Culture is a very tricky concept. I think the only interesting thing concerning those leagues is their plurality of RUGBY and SPORTS cultures.

Well, Super Rugby puts together 3 countries with the same kind of rugby culture concerning the rugby structure: South Africa, New Zealand and Australia have the regional representative teams as the base of their rugby since the begining, although Australia is different as rugby is NOT the number one sport in part of their Super Rugby areas. Rebels and Force areas are indeed a problem as they lack a widespread rugby culture. Japan's rugby doesn't have the regional rep concept, but the country is used to the franchises model (baseball). Argentina in the other hand has regional rep teams in their rugby, but it is the clubs that always mattered and South American sports culture is based on clubs, with leagues with relegation systems and same city derbies/rivalries exactly like Europe. Jaguares are the only sports franchise team in the Southern Cone. So yes, Super Rugby is diverse in sports cultures, but there is a local mainstream culture to follow in most of the countries.

Pro14 mixes things more. Regional rep teams are part of Irish and South African sports cultures (not only rugby, but Irish GAA and SA cricket for exemple), but are strange to Welsh and Italian sports cultures (that always use clubs and relegation systems). Not sure how really important were the original 4 Scotish rugby regional teams, but I think I could say that for Scotland they were not as important and central to their rugby culture as the provincial teams for Ireland for exemple.

I think we can say PRO14 has more challenges about its own teams regarding the original rugby cultures, because it has a more complicated mix of sports cultures.

About number of official languages, that is important flr marketing and communications, we have:

English, Maori, Japanese, Spanish, Afrikans (and a lot of African languages) VS English, Irish, Welsh, Scots, Italian (and Venetian for some Treviso diehards!), Afrikans (+ a lot of African languages). They are even with an insane amount of idioms. But when we think about % significance of daily use, it is English, Italian and Afrikans VS English, Spanish, Japanese and Afrikans, as the majority of Irish, Welsh, Scots, Maori speakers speak English fluently. So a little more problems for Super Rugby.
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 05 Aug 2017, 06:31

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:I'm unclear why anyone would be so animated on this. I think Pro14 is more multicultural than Super Rugby and no other league comes into the conversation (so the gods only know why you mention Bavaria).

I have to say RugbyLiebe you do come across as not fully aware of cultural diversity between and within countries.

The island of Ireland consists of very distinct provinces with utterly different majority political, religious and linguistic variations.

To suggest Wales and Scotland are less culturally diverse than Germany and Austria, or France and Wallonia or Luxembourg, or Denmark and Sweden etc etc is without any basis I'm aware of.

Italy is culturally distinct from the others, which goes without saying.

Plus the countries of the British Isles are highly multicultural in general and specifically in terms of rugby steal players from all manner of cultures to play in their leagues and become project players (like the great Irishman Bundee Aki, who plays alongside a Nigerian Adeloykun incidentally). There is no doubt that Pro14 will have players from a wider range of countries and cultures than Super Rugby.

Finally, the Kings in some ways are culturally distinct from the other Super Rugby teams of South Africa, being the only one that is not dominated by the ethnic European minorities of that country.

So all in all, you say bullshit - but you'll need to present a better case than you have done so far if you expect many people with experience and knowledge of the Pro14 and their constituent countries to consider your argument as having merit. That is if you want to split hairs with a perfectly innocuous press release.


Off course this is some kind of splitting hairs. But it is the very buttom of the problem why the Home Nations seem to have no interest to grow the game. Yes we could argue long about what culture is. And probably everyone of us would have good arguments to some degree.

Just saying that the Spanish Primera Division with Basque, Catalan, Castilian, Galicia and Canarian teams would never even think about claiming to be multiculturist.

This self-centered British Empire defintion of "multiculturalism" or "internationality" is a problem for the growth of the game. Because it is used as a fig-leave how multicultural or how international the game is.

Apart from that it is simply a erong statement as Super Rugby is simply more diverse.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sat, 05 Aug 2017, 08:48

Super Rugby games are broadcast in three languages in South Africa. Xhosa, English and Afrikaans. They'll definitely do Xhosa for Kings games.

Wikipedia suggests there are 11 official languages in South Africa alone!

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sat, 05 Aug 2017, 10:40

SuperSport does Xhosa for EVERY rugby game - it is a MUST :!:

Just look at captions when a transmission starts -
they announce commentator crews in all THREE languages

@

And WR issues Laws of the Game in Xhosa ANNUALLY

Image

http://laws.worldrugby.org/downloads/World_Rugby_Laws_2017_XH.pdf

I just wonder which word of those mean RUGBY

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Sat, 05 Aug 2017, 11:38

Yombhoxo (i googled :D )
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby amz » Sat, 05 Aug 2017, 12:59

What does it mean exactly? Excessive political corectness imo to translate every word in your language and not just take it as it is.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bolaroid » Sat, 05 Aug 2017, 14:04

RugbyLiebe wrote:This self-centered British Empire defintion of "multiculturalism" or "internationality" is a problem for the growth of the game. Because it is used as a fig-leave how multicultural or how international the game is.

I think you're being a bit harsh :) , the Italians and South Africans are in the Pro 14 league, along with the Scots, Welsh, Irish & N.Irish so I think multicultural is a fair description of the league even if some of those cultures are closer than others.

On here, we'd all have liked to have seen a tier 2 nation from further afield involved in the competition but since it's a pro sport the money has to be right and clearly it wasn't.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sat, 05 Aug 2017, 16:19

It is an open secret that the Pro14 will look to expand into the US next year. I'm sure they'd have done it this year if there hadn't been legal issues in the US regarding "exclusivity".

The Ulster coach specifically mentioned North America in an interview earlier this week and there is a consistent, controlled message from the league that there will be more expansion. I think we can conclude that any plans in Europe are not as firm at this stage and would be more medium to long term.

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