Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

A Pro12 Expansion

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sun, 07 May 2017, 10:50

Amateur hour from the Pro12. The Scotsman is usually a fairly reliable source for rugby news even if this article seems a little all over the place. At least Houston sounds less ludicrous than playing an outdoor sport during winter months in Toronto or north east USA.

Quite what gives the Pro12 confidence that the US and Canadian Unions are more capable than the Italian one in producing a profit is lost on me. All three unions are poor performers from my perspective.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 08 May 2017, 15:40

Also seems deliberately designed to try and piss on Major League Rugby's chips, coming onto the toes of three of their teams and in the same year.

I think a Roman team will happen sooner or later. They won't quit until they've tried that. Very skeptical if a USA team will come in though, most likely for me is Treviso and Rome.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Tue, 09 May 2017, 08:07

I think it's clear the Italian involvement in the Pro12 isn't working and that the FIR need to take at least some responsibility for that. However, I also don't see how continuing to charge them to participate will help - that'll just be less resources they'll have to spend on actually making the teams more competitive.

I don't understand where the problem is. On paper the squads they have look OK; when their players move elsewhere they don't look out of place, and the quality of their imports doesn't seem to be substantially lower than the other Pro12 teams (excepting the very top ones of course). They should at least be able to compete with the likes of Connacht and the Blues; yet they've been scrapping to avoid bottom place yet again, and that it in a year when the Dragons and Edinburgh have both been abysmally bad. Is the issue coaching / professionalism?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Tue, 09 May 2017, 08:44

The coaches are a real factor I think. They got journeyman Crowley from the Canadian national side for Treviso at the start of the year and fired the Zebre coach Guidi mid-season. But then some other Pro12 sides had unproven coaches and did better.

I agree that on paper they should be competing for 9th and 10th place and that the FIR should take most of the blame.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby rusty_lock » Tue, 09 May 2017, 10:47

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:The coaches are a real factor I think. They got journeyman Crowley from the Canadian national side for Treviso at the start of the year and fired the Zebre coach Guidi mid-season. But then some other Pro12 sides had unproven coaches and did better.

I agree that on paper they should be competing for 9th and 10th place and that the FIR should take most of the blame.

Crowley was a disaster for Canada so I'm not surprised he accomplished nothing for Treviso. His only successful coaching gig was NZ U20 and starting with that kind of talent makes it hard to fail. There was a lot of animosity towards him when left Taranaki in NZ

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Tue, 09 May 2017, 13:13

A combination of bad attitude, lack of confidence and fitness issues. They started off badly and never got any momentum going.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 09 May 2017, 16:18

So basically they're going cheap on coaches...sounds like USAR every other WC cycle.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Fri, 12 May 2017, 10:25

TheStroBro wrote:So basically they're going cheap on coaches...sounds like USAR every other WC cycle.



There's the old saying, you reap what you sow. That's the problem for Italian rugby at the moment. They're suffering now for not doing enough in the past to make sure they've a steady stream of talent coming along.


Their players also have a tendency to wave the white flag when things are not going well for them.


There's signs of change happening now and I think they will improve in the coming years. They've a big country behind them if they can start becoming more competitive.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Thu, 18 May 2017, 08:30

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... houston-us

Houston to be announced at the end of the month according to the guardian. It's another negative article though.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 18 May 2017, 10:45

I think he did just coin a new motto for this thread:

“It’s up to them if they want to waste a huge amount of money, they’re welcome.”

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby BigG » Thu, 18 May 2017, 11:40

dropkick wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/18/pro-12-rugby-houston-us

Houston to be announced at the end of the month according to the guardian. It's another negative article though.


Flight to Houston takes about 10 hours. Do you think it is normal to travel that far? What about players' (especially those from Houston team) health?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby iul » Thu, 18 May 2017, 12:09

BigG wrote:
dropkick wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/18/pro-12-rugby-houston-us

Houston to be announced at the end of the month according to the guardian. It's another negative article though.


Flight to Houston takes about 10 hours. Do you think it is normal to travel that far? What about players' (especially those from Houston team) health?

How do the players in Super Rugby manage it?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby grande » Thu, 18 May 2017, 12:56

What's going to be upsetting is this team will essentially poach the best players from the MLR, lowering the quality of that league. They'll be going to a competition that plays at shitty hours and (most likely) will be getting spanked the first couple seasons.

Let rugby develop in the North America on its own.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby BigG » Thu, 18 May 2017, 15:12

iul wrote:
BigG wrote:
dropkick wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/18/pro-12-rugby-houston-us

Houston to be announced at the end of the month according to the guardian. It's another negative article though.


Flight to Houston takes about 10 hours. Do you think it is normal to travel that far? What about players' (especially those from Houston team) health?

How do the players in Super Rugby manage it?


They do not have 10 hour flights. May be Jaguares but much less than Houston would have within PRO12.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Thu, 18 May 2017, 15:57

I think it could work. If Toronto can do League why can't Houston do Union? And is the travelling worse for the Jaguars who need to travel between similar timezones to SA plus trips to Oceania and Japan?

I think it is worse for US rugby fans than if PRO had been a success as Schoninger's money helped attract a decent calibre of foreign import to mingle with native talent. But if the US union and PRO have irreconcilable differences then this is a credible option.

Logistically very challenging to only have one NA side. Another effort for professional rugby in the US undermined by the Canadian Union's dithering and failure to back an option.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby rusty_lock » Thu, 18 May 2017, 16:11

BigG wrote:
iul wrote:
BigG wrote:
dropkick wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/18/pro-12-rugby-houston-us

Houston to be announced at the end of the month according to the guardian. It's another negative article though.


Flight to Houston takes about 10 hours. Do you think it is normal to travel that far? What about players' (especially those from Houston team) health?

How do the players in Super Rugby manage it?


They do not have 10 hour flights. May be Jaguares but much less than Houston would have within PRO12.
Flight from Sidney to Joburg is 14:15. Flight from Houston to Dublin is 9:40.

I'm not arguing in favor just pointing out the facts.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 18 May 2017, 17:57

iul wrote:
BigG wrote:
dropkick wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/18/pro-12-rugby-houston-us

Houston to be announced at the end of the month according to the guardian. It's another negative article though.


Flight to Houston takes about 10 hours. Do you think it is normal to travel that far? What about players' (especially those from Houston team) health?

How do the players in Super Rugby manage it?


It's pretty much shortening their life expectancy. And I'm talking science, continuous disruption of the circadian rhythm is a lot of trauma.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Fri, 19 May 2017, 15:09

TheStroBro wrote:
iul wrote:
BigG wrote:
dropkick wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/18/pro-12-rugby-houston-us

Houston to be announced at the end of the month according to the guardian. It's another negative article though.


Flight to Houston takes about 10 hours. Do you think it is normal to travel that far? What about players' (especially those from Houston team) health?

How do the players in Super Rugby manage it?


It's pretty much shortening their life expectancy. And I'm talking science, continuous disruption of the circadian rhythm is a lot of trauma.


It's pretty much the worst thing for you. I did a lot of travelling with work over a three year period (230,000 miles of just air travel/can't even count the car travel) and went from being a super athletic freak to a complete weakling and it's taken me almost THREE years to get back to the health I had before. Bad food on the road, poor posture from airplane seats, general aches and pains, etc. Not a life I would recommend for anyone, the money isn't worth it.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bolaroid » Mon, 22 May 2017, 06:07

Not seeing the issue with the travel. It's one away game in the US per season for pro 12 sides. Obviously the Houston side aren't going to be winging it back and forwards, their fixtures would be organised in a way which is conducive to reduce any travel load.

My concern is that they'd be a crap team, even worse than Zebre. There's literally no point in that.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bolaroid » Mon, 22 May 2017, 06:14

Figaro wrote:I would welcome the South African Super Rugby sides with open arms, if they came as a block of all six and became those teams' primary professional competition (or if they prefer, scrap the Cheetahs and Kings and we take the other 4). It would be the death knell of the Pro12 though to take on just those rejected from another competition.

I don't understand this part, why would it be the death knell of the Pro 12? Are you talking about the death knell in the UK/Ire or the perception of it in SA?

I understand the South African rugby fan mentality, they enjoy watching NH rugby because it's on at the right times and it has many South Africans. They watch a lot of European sport and many of them have connections in the UK & Ireland too. If the Cheetahs & Kings were do well, and also compete in the Champions Cup, I can see fans of teams still in Super Rugby wanting to follow suit.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Mon, 22 May 2017, 07:50

Bolaroid wrote:
Figaro wrote:I would welcome the South African Super Rugby sides with open arms, if they came as a block of all six and became those teams' primary professional competition (or if they prefer, scrap the Cheetahs and Kings and we take the other 4). It would be the death knell of the Pro12 though to take on just those rejected from another competition.

I don't understand this part, why would it be the death knell of the Pro 12? Are you talking about the death knell in the UK/Ire or the perception of it in SA?

I understand the South African rugby fan mentality, they enjoy watching NH rugby because it's on at the right times and it has many South Africans. They watch a lot of European sport and many of them have connections in the UK & Ireland too. If the Cheetahs & Kings were do well, and also compete in the Champions Cup, I can see fans of teams still in Super Rugby wanting to follow suit.


I don't know much about SA so will defer to you on that point. But I'm sure the perception that it was the "2nd choice" and that the teams were those "rejected" from Super Rugby for not being good enough would mean it would be far, far less successful than a wholsesale transfer of top-level South African Rugby to northern Europe would be.

From the point of view of the Pro12, taking on the teams that are kicked out of another competition (based primarily on poor performance) reinforces the already-prevalent (and often unfair) idea that the Pro12 is a poor, lesser-sibling to the French and English leagues.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby 4N » Mon, 22 May 2017, 14:21

Bolaroid wrote:Not seeing the issue with the travel. It's one away game in the US per season for pro 12 sides. Obviously the Houston side aren't going to be winging it back and forwards, their fixtures would be organised in a way which is conducive to reduce any travel load.

My concern is that they'd be a crap team, even worse than Zebre. There's literally no point in that.


They wouldn't be worse than Zebre. Italian rugby doesn't really produce good prospects consistently. There were lots of good young American prospects in the ARC squad. Guys like Bryce Campbell, Pete Malcolm, Ben Cima, Matt Jensen etc.

My concern would be more toward crowds, but an average of 6-7k wouldn't be bad in Pro12 I guess.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Sat, 27 May 2017, 11:14

Just had a look at some of the transfers for next season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2017–18_Pro12_transfers


Big difference between Zebre's and Treviso's transfers. Adds more fuel to the 'moving to Rome' rumours.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Tue, 30 May 2017, 16:01

I don't think those are up to date. Bronzini was with Treviso this season. Marty Banks was due to come over in late 2016 or the start of 2017, but it fell through.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby cardiffrcm » Tue, 30 May 2017, 19:43

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:I don't think those are up to date. Bronzini was with Treviso this season. Marty Banks was due to come over in late 2016 or the start of 2017, but it fell through.


Different Bronzini. This one is Giorgio, the international Scrum Half's, younger brother Andrea. He's a wing and a current U20 international.

Marty Banks is joining Treviso at the end of the Super Rugby season.

Herbst hasn't yet been confirmed.

One other published signing, not on the list is Engjel Makelara. He's a hooker; capped at U20 last season.

Treviso should be stronger next season and will take some beating at home. They still won't travel well, though.

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