Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

A Pro12 Expansion

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby marino » Tue, 06 Jun 2017, 06:31

The problem here is money. If someone comes and give 10M€ per year, there wouldn't be any problem as we are having now. But in my opinion is something that will change in the future for sure.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby mulu » Tue, 06 Jun 2017, 12:58

TheStroBro wrote:As I understand, Wild has bid on SF.


Wild is the new owner of SF as his bid was successful.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby iul » Tue, 06 Jun 2017, 13:47

mulu wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:As I understand, Wild has bid on SF.


Wild is the new owner of SF as his bid was successful.

do you have a source for this piece of information?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Tue, 06 Jun 2017, 17:23

mulu wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:As I understand, Wild has bid on SF.


Wild is the new owner of SF as his bid was successful.



Good to see. What are his plans for SF?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Wed, 07 Jun 2017, 16:57

https://www.alloutrugby.com/sa-teams-queue-for-pro12/

Done deal and joining next season. according to this. 3rd SA side also considering leaving super rugby.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Wed, 07 Jun 2017, 17:20

It'll be amazing if true. I'm still not convinced this will happen. Could be posturing against SANZAAR / NZ by SA and also against Italy by the Pro12. Would be happy to see it happen though. Thanks for posting.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 08 Jun 2017, 02:59

Well, if this does in fact turnout to be more financially rewarding for the 2 SA teams then I fully expect the other SA super rugby teams to follow suit in the coming years. SA have been threatening to withdraw from Super Rugby for close to 10 years now. That would leave NZ and Australia alone to form a Trans-tasman league with the Sunwolves and Jaguares, essentially we would revert back to the old Super 12 format. I'm not sure how I feel about this. The only thing keeping Australia and NZ afloat is the money coming from SA.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Thu, 08 Jun 2017, 06:10

If the all the 6 South African teams leave Super Rugby, Jaguares will have to do the same, whether Pichot like it or not. And NZ and Australia would be forced to turn their eyes to Asian money. Not only to the Japanese market.

PRO12 can have a 20 teams league with 6 SA, 1 ARG, 4 IRE, 4 WAL, 2 SCO, 1 ITA and 2 NA teams... 22 matches = 19 matches against everybody + 3 extra derbis (that the Irish and Welsh will of course want). But how The Rugby Championship would be affected?
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 08 Jun 2017, 07:46

My guess is the Rugby Championship would continue as is. Even if the SA sides leave Super Rugby there's no way South Africa just drop out of playing NZ annually. The other option is the SARU decide to permanently split their teams between the Pro 12 and Super Rugby. I'm starting to wonder if splitting your teams between two leagues isn't actually a bad idea. The issue the ARU and the Force and Rebels could be resolved if another league could be found to house one or even both teams. The only viable option would be the Japanese league, but it would require significant changes or compromise between the ARU and Japanese league.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Horsehead » Thu, 08 Jun 2017, 09:19

If the Cheetahs and Southern Kings do join the Pro12 does that mean they will also play in the champions and challenge cup? If they do and make more money than they do from Super Rugby as well as it being less burden on their players with travel then I could see all 6 provinces coming over. If that happens then surely it would make no sense to have your provinces play in the NH calendar and National team in the SH calendar - when would the players get an off season?

If this does happen I think it could be huge for T2 rugby because if SA leave SANZAAR the 6Ns would welcome them with open arms and it would hopefully and finally open up the 6Ns. Also Super Rugby would have to turn to the Asian and American markets for revenue which would be good.

SA could always play NZ in the summer or autumn internationals

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby ihateblazers » Thu, 08 Jun 2017, 11:36

thatrugbyguy wrote:Well, if this does in fact turnout to be more financially rewarding for the 2 SA teams then I fully expect the other SA super rugby teams to follow suit in the coming years. SA have been threatening to withdraw from Super Rugby for close to 10 years now. That would leave NZ and Australia alone to form a Trans-tasman league with the Sunwolves and Jaguares, essentially we would revert back to the old Super 12 format. I'm not sure how I feel about this. The only thing keeping Australia and NZ afloat is the money coming from SA.


Maybe it would be a negative of ANZ in the short term. But it would allow the ARU and NZRU to really look at what they want out of pro rugby going forward. At the very least New Zealand would have to start cooperating with Australia to get them up to speed and maximise the market there instead of treating them with contempt as they do now.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 08 Jun 2017, 12:50

NZ has made it readily known they have no interest in a Trans-Tasman league, so I don't know what happens if all of a sudden the prospect of SA teams leaving start to become a reality. It's no secret the ARU would like nothing more than a 10 team Aus/NZ league.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 08 Jun 2017, 15:30

thatrugbyguy wrote:The only thing keeping Australia and NZ afloat is the money coming from SA.

Maybe Australia, but not NZ. Unlike every South African side sans Stormers, all NZ sides have pretty good attendance. South African sides have horrible attendance and are losing money at the gate. They'd do better to just play on a country pitch than a stadium.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Thu, 08 Jun 2017, 15:55

TheStroBro wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:The only thing keeping Australia and NZ afloat is the money coming from SA.

Maybe Australia, but not NZ. Unlike every South African side sans Stormers, all NZ sides have pretty good attendance. South African sides have horrible attendance and are losing money at the gate. They'd do better to just play on a country pitch than a stadium.



TV money is the main thing. Thats why European sides can outbid southern hemisphere sides.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby rusty_lock » Fri, 09 Jun 2017, 00:44

This is terrible news. Essentially this makes Pro12 a development league for Super Rugby. The weakest teams unable to compete are demoted to Pro12. Maybe they could have an annual promotion relegation thing and really drive a stake into the heart of Pro12 credibility

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 09 Jun 2017, 01:29

New Zealand is just as reliant on the TV money from SA as what Australia are. Even if half the South Africa sides leave that's going to hit their wallets, because it will essentially mean you're guaranteed only one game per week in South Africa. The only solution would be to try and get a bigger slice of money from Asia to compensate.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Fri, 09 Jun 2017, 02:12

Maybe Australia, but not NZ. Unlike every South African side sans Stormers, all NZ sides have pretty good attendance. South African sides have horrible attendance and are losing money at the gate. They'd do better to just play on a country pitch than a stadium.


Not quite true. The Golden Lions have an average attendance of 26.000 people: http://www.shrugbyblog.com/2017/03/23/e ... 17-season/
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby ihateblazers » Fri, 09 Jun 2017, 02:27

The Bull's drop is incredible. It wasn't long ago where they were averaging around 40,000.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 09 Jun 2017, 03:09

Crowds are down everywhere. Waratahs use to average 25 - 30,000, Brumbies close to 20,000, even the Force averaged close to 25,000 for the first few years. The reason they moved from Subiaco to NIB stadium was their crowds dropped significantly (also because it's a crap ground to watch rugby in)

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby ihateblazers » Fri, 09 Jun 2017, 05:50

I think professional rugby in general has issues with retaining fans. There is a level of complacency which is quite unbelievable when you consider how young it is as a professional sport.

Organisations don't tend to have a strategy to build on spikes of attendances from floater fans to convert to regulars. There is an arrogant mentality of "the product on the field is all that matters and will sell itself" when a lot of floater fans go to sports events simply for the experience and day out. More needs to be done to improve the match day experience. I think this is where rugby can really learn from American sports, there isn't enough hardcore support in rugby like there is in other sports and you have to try to retain the casuals.

That isn't meant to explain all of super rugbys problems but I think it reflects rugbys conservative attitude and doesn't help. Where was the strategy in Australia when the Reds and Waratahs had their titles? The only supporters left are the die harda. Same in Wales with the Ospreys and Cardiff. Also in NZ with the Hurricanes.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Sables4EVA » Fri, 09 Jun 2017, 06:42

The reason that match attendances have dropped is because of TV, it is cheaper and more convenient to have a few mates over and grill some meat while the TV is on or just go to the closest pub with live sport, you also get to watch more than one game on a day. The stadia may be empty but the bars are packed.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 10 Jun 2017, 13:46

victorsra wrote:
Maybe Australia, but not NZ. Unlike every South African side sans Stormers, all NZ sides have pretty good attendance. South African sides have horrible attendance and are losing money at the gate. They'd do better to just play on a country pitch than a stadium.


Not quite true. The Golden Lions have an average attendance of 26.000 people: http://www.shrugbyblog.com/2017/03/23/e ... 17-season/

That's not what I saw in the stadium as I watched from my home.

Sables4EVA wrote:The reason that match attendances have dropped is because of TV, it is cheaper and more convenient to have a few mates over and grill some meat while the TV is on or just go to the closest pub with live sport, you also get to watch more than one game on a day. The stadia may be empty but the bars are packed.


Only 60 Rand to get to a Lions match. You see here in the States, both the Stadium is packed and the bars are packed in football season. Your issue is Super doesn't care about fan game-day experience. But that means they're shutting down what could be a 1/3 of their revenue stream.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby 4N » Mon, 12 Jun 2017, 18:30

Another day, another Pro12 expansion article. John Mitchell calls for US side.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3115627

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Mon, 12 Jun 2017, 18:42

That's not what I saw in the stadium as I watched from my home.

That's the official attendances. TV shows just some angles and sometimes most of the crowd are in the same side of the camera...
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 12 Jun 2017, 19:03

victorsra wrote:
That's not what I saw in the stadium as I watched from my home.

That's the official attendances. TV shows just some angles and sometimes most of the crowd are in the same side of the camera...

And we've all seen sporting organizations lie their pants off. When you want to pump up attendance you switch the angles to make it look good, not worse! :roll:

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