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A Pro12 Expansion

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 15 Jun 2017, 17:56

iul wrote:
mulu wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:As I understand, Wild has bid on SF.


Wild is the new owner of SF as his bid was successful.

do you have a source for this piece of information?


I found this:

http://www.leparisien.fr/sports/rugby/r ... 982092.php
http://www.leparisien.fr/sports/rugby/t ... 049223.php

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Wed, 28 Jun 2017, 11:04

Some contributors on the Scarlets' forum are saying they have been consulted by the Pro12 on whether they would go on long haul flights to attend league games, and what factors would influence their decision to do so or not.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Horsehead » Wed, 28 Jun 2017, 11:37

Figaro wrote:Some contributors on the Scarlets' forum are saying they have been consulted by the Pro12 on whether they would go on long haul flights to attend league games, and what factors would influence their decision to do so or not.


Have they asked where these long haul flights are to?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 28 Jun 2017, 11:48

Horsehead wrote:
Figaro wrote:Some contributors on the Scarlets' forum are saying they have been consulted by the Pro12 on whether they would go on long haul flights to attend league games, and what factors would influence their decision to do so or not.


Have they asked where these long haul flights are to?


According to one of the guys who tried to get a franchise in New York via the RugbyWrapUp podcast (had the financing, stadium etc set up but walked away due to timing issues. Pro12 wanted to shoot for 2018/2019 while he and his partners wanted 2019/2020) rumours suggest Philadelphia.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Wed, 28 Jun 2017, 13:31

Horsehead wrote:
Figaro wrote:Some contributors on the Scarlets' forum are saying they have been consulted by the Pro12 on whether they would go on long haul flights to attend league games, and what factors would influence their decision to do so or not.


Have they asked where these long haul flights are to?


No but they have apparently asked about people's views of the airlines Aer Lingus, British Airways, KLM and Turkish Airlines.

From what I can tell, the latter three go everywhere but at the moment Aer Lingus flies between Europe and the US, but not South Africa.

Could be that they are looking at airline sponsorship for the league - would make sense if there are going to be a lot of flights involved.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby 4N » Wed, 28 Jun 2017, 13:36

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Horsehead wrote:
Figaro wrote:Some contributors on the Scarlets' forum are saying they have been consulted by the Pro12 on whether they would go on long haul flights to attend league games, and what factors would influence their decision to do so or not.


Have they asked where these long haul flights are to?


According to one of the guys who tried to get a franchise in New York via the RugbyWrapUp podcast (had the financing, stadium etc set up but walked away due to timing issues. Pro12 wanted to shoot for 2018/2019 while he and his partners wanted 2019/2020) rumours suggest Philadelphia.


RWU studio segment
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kj6rFIwDxgQ

I think Philly is the best suggestion from the US bases mentioned so far. Better local support for rugby than Houston, none of NYC's venue headaches.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 28 Jun 2017, 17:08

Better local support for Rugby than Houston? Where do you get that idea? There's rugby all over Houston.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby 4N » Wed, 28 Jun 2017, 17:45

The CRC, local government supports rugby, college programs dotted throughout the area. More rugby tradition, one of the biggest Irish-American pops in the country doesn't hurt either. Some of the most 'Irish' cities in the US are Philly burbs located near the MLS stadium. I think in terms of Pro12 it's as good a fit as any.

Houston like a lot of sunbelt cities is spread out (everything is like 45 min by car there, and some seem down on the Strikers site because of location) and full of transplants. We will see how pro rugby of any kind does there, have my doubts over the fan base. But the Strikers are making a go of it so good on them.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 28 Jun 2017, 17:57

It's not like the CRC is a jam packed event every year. Yes, Houston is spread out. But the same things you talked about Club Rugby, College Programs, Local Government Support, ExPat Populations are all in the Houston Metropolitan Area. In fact I'd say the Rugby Community in general is probably larger. But the flights to the rest of the Pro12 would be a bit shorter.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Horsehead » Wed, 28 Jun 2017, 23:38

Figaro wrote:
Horsehead wrote:
Figaro wrote:Some contributors on the Scarlets' forum are saying they have been consulted by the Pro12 on whether they would go on long haul flights to attend league games, and what factors would influence their decision to do so or not.


Have they asked where these long haul flights are to?


No but they have apparently asked about people's views of the airlines Aer Lingus, British Airways, KLM and Turkish Airlines.

From what I can tell, the latter three go everywhere but at the moment Aer Lingus flies between Europe and the US, but not South Africa.

Could be that they are looking at airline sponsorship for the league - would make sense if there are going to be a lot of flights involved.


I was hoping Turkish Airlines hinted at the inclusion of a Georgian team. Do they fly between Britain/Ireland and US/SA then?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 00:16

Turkish Airlines basically sponsors everything nowadays (EPCR and basketball Euroleague at the very least). I don't think its inclusion has anything to do with potential destinations and more about getting their money.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 11:14

Armchair Fan wrote:Turkish Airlines basically sponsors everything nowadays (EPCR and basketball Euroleague at the very least). I don't think its inclusion has anything to do with potential destinations and more about getting their money.


In the context of them also being asked how they feel about long-haul flights to attend league games, it's certainly in the context of at least one long-haul destination being potentially involved.

If one or more teams from outside Europe are going to be involved then some kind of direct airline involvement makes a lot of sense - a single US team in a 13-team round robin league will mean there needs to be 24 return long-haul flights between the US and Europe per season (assuming they don't do anything sensible with fixtures, which you would assume they would). Each flight is going to need some 40+ people; that's a huge sum of money even before considering any kind of sweetener for the fans, and the league isn't exactly rolling in it at the moment.

I can't find an easy way to find out where each airline goes - you can get a list of destinations on wikipedia, but with the exception of Aer Lingus those are enormous airlines and have flights that take off or land from almost any country. Turkish Airlines have flights that take off and land in all three of the US, South Africa and the UK for example, but it doesn't follow that they fly between those (perhaps they just fly between all those and Turkey for example).

The other thing though is that current destinations might not be relevant at all - there's nothing stopping those airlines from starting to offer flights elsewhere if a deal emerges. So maybe it tells us nothing at all about where the expansion can/will be.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby amz » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 11:57

As a rumor so take it with a pinch of salt, some officials in Bucharest at last match vs Brazil were talking about a German team in Pro 12. Apparently Spain refused due to financial reasons

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Horsehead » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 12:14

I have to say if there was a US, SA, German and Georgian team added that would be pretty cool

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 12:47

amz wrote:As a rumor so take it with a pinch of salt, some officials in Bucharest at last match vs Brazil were talking about a German team in Pro 12. Apparently Spain refused due to financial reasons

Nothing new, unfortunately

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby sammo » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 13:44

Figaro wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:Turkish Airlines basically sponsors everything nowadays (EPCR and basketball Euroleague at the very least). I don't think its inclusion has anything to do with potential destinations and more about getting their money.


In the context of them also being asked how they feel about long-haul flights to attend league games, it's certainly in the context of at least one long-haul destination being potentially involved.

If one or more teams from outside Europe are going to be involved then some kind of direct airline involvement makes a lot of sense - a single US team in a 13-team round robin league will mean there needs to be 24 return long-haul flights between the US and Europe per season (assuming they don't do anything sensible with fixtures, which you would assume they would). Each flight is going to need some 40+ people; that's a huge sum of money even before considering any kind of sweetener for the fans, and the league isn't exactly rolling in it at the moment.

I can't find an easy way to find out where each airline goes - you can get a list of destinations on wikipedia, but with the exception of Aer Lingus those are enormous airlines and have flights that take off or land from almost any country. Turkish Airlines have flights that take off and land in all three of the US, South Africa and the UK for example, but it doesn't follow that they fly between those (perhaps they just fly between all those and Turkey for example).

The other thing though is that current destinations might not be relevant at all - there's nothing stopping those airlines from starting to offer flights elsewhere if a deal emerges. So maybe it tells us nothing at all about where the expansion can/will be.


You can look at the individual airport Wikipedia entries, e.g; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tbilisi ... al_Airport

So Turkish Airlines don't fly to any of the current Pro12 nations from Tbilisi

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 15:07

Armchair Fan wrote:
amz wrote:As a rumor so take it with a pinch of salt, some officials in Bucharest at last match vs Brazil were talking about a German team in Pro 12. Apparently Spain refused due to financial reasons

Nothing new, unfortunately

Just to develop what I'm talking about in case somebody got lost. Celtic officials visited Madrid last Summer and although they logically didn't disclose the goal of the visit, they sent some tweets about their presence in Madrid. Then in early 2017 a FER senior official confirmed to Revista Veintidós the talks and said there was no money to sustain the project. President Alfonso Feijóo didn't like the fact this official talked to press about this and other topics and defenestrated him, nowadays only working on 7s national team management role. Pro 12 seem a closed road for us now and efforts are put onto a merger with Portuguese leagues, but although talks with FPR have been very positive Portuguese clubs seem reluctant to the idea due to financial constraints and prefer to test the waters by an expanded Iberian Cup to take place during Christmas holidays.

It's sad because although it's completely true there isn't money to afford a Pro 12 franchise (FER should double at the very least its budget), we haven't made the most of the situation. Was it that hard to share with media this talks? To see whether somebody could be interested to partner for a project aimed at Ireland, Scotland and Wales considering how much dependant on tourism we are? To benefit from the interest of Pro 12 to do some international publicity to Spanish rugby, just like Germany, Georgia, USA and Canada did? FER is currently led by honest people with a good financial guidance, but they are completely outdated in terms of marketing and current international rugby landscape and it's beginning to be clear that they aren't the most adequate leadership for a time where rugby is blossoming here.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 15:24

Pro 12 is a very risky bet even if you have this amount of money. Sincerely i try to spend different this money if our union have it.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 15:34

Of course it is. I'm not saying it should be the path to follow, I only say FER has lost the chance to appear on international rugby media in the same pieces of news Germany, Georgia, USA and Canada have and to test the waters in national media ("Hey, look at this project"). A bit of free advertisement doesn't hurt anybody.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 16:39

The Pro12 are being rightly cautious and tight-lipped. Any expansion has to be very carefully considered and planned.

The inclusion of the Italians has largely been seen as a failure, but if there had never been Italian teams in the Pro12 then expansion to Italy would look as attractive right now (if not more so) as any of the other options currently on the table. They need to be very, very careful about how they go about this.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 18:07

I would say Pro12 hasn't been tight lipped at all, at least when it come to NA expansion.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 20:33

Figaro wrote:The inclusion of the Italians has largely been seen as a failure, but if there had never been Italian teams in the Pro12 then expansion to Italy would look as attractive right now (if not more so) as any of the other options currently on the table. They need to be very, very careful about how they go about this.


Spot on. So what are the main reasons the Italian expansion is seen as a failure (I doubt it as we can see with the Italian U20, a gener!tion raised with a viable path to become a pro).

All I can really think about is that they were put into smaller towns and not in cities like Milano, Torino, Rome, Bologna or any other of the 10 biggest Italian cities. And this was wrong.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby amz » Thu, 29 Jun 2017, 20:35

RugbyLiebe wrote:All I can really think about is that they were put into smaller towns and not in cities like Milano, Torino, Rome, Bologna or any other of the 10 biggest Italian cities. And this was wrong.


that and destroying Parma to take their sponsor ...

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby ihateblazers » Fri, 30 Jun 2017, 04:52

The Italians in the Pro 12 was never treated as an expansion. It was a reluctant inclusion from the Celts with a high fee. The Celtic unions never cared about Italy flourishin or utilising their market for the comp, at least until just recently.

Any future expansion is difficult to compare to the Italian's, you would hope that the Celts have learnt their lesson and would approach it more openly and professionally.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Sables4EVA » Fri, 30 Jun 2017, 06:04

sammo wrote:So Turkish Airlines don't fly to any of the current Pro12 nations from Tbilisi


Turkish Airlines do fly to South Africa, however.

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