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A Pro12 Expansion

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bolaroid » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 16:18

victorsra wrote:I am pretty sure this SA is pure mambo jambo.

There are too many problems involved. First of all, the PRO12 from 2020 will run from Setember to June. Will Cheetahs and Kings players rest in August, the same monyh that starts the Currie Cup? Or people are thinking Cheetahs and Kings supporters will love to dont play the Lions, Bulls, Sharks, WP anymore just to start playing the celts?

This talk has 2 reasons: Cheetahs and Kings they want to put pression on Sanzaar about SR future and SARU is testing how would be the reaction if they move ALL the teams to the Euopean rugby system breaking away. And they wont like to stop playing their South African rivals.

There wont be half breakaway. It doesn't exist. It needs SARU's approval and SARU is a SANZAAR partner. And it needs the supporters to like the idea too.

It sounds like it's happening to be honest victor.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bolaroid » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 16:20

sk 88 wrote:Depends on the money. If a contract makes the travel costs worthwhile they'll happily go, if there isn't solid money behind it then why take the risk?

Personally I think it would be a really dangerous move and long term destructive. The European Cup's selling point is that it is a European Championship. Start adding South Africans and Americans and it loses its USP, identity and history. If Pro12 expanded in Europe I do think they'd be added to the cups, well challenge cup, no questions asked.

Hey, if Eurovision can do it...
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby ogrelord » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 16:32

victorsra wrote:It needs SARU's approval and SARU is a SANZAAR partner. And it needs the supporters to like the idea too.


SARU is giving it the green light because it means they aren't 'cutting' two franchises, just redirecting them.

Alan Solomons certainly thinks this is a go.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 16:39

I think the fact Eurovision gets block funded from France, Germany, Italy, UK and Spanish governments gives it a bit more freedom to do bat-shit insane things. Its also the whole raison d'être of Eurovision to be mental!

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 16:51

The SARU decision will apparently be finalised one way or the other tomorrow. I hope they approve it. I also hope they don't enter the European competitions as it may reduce the access that Tier 2 sides get through the Continental Shield.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 17:17

By doing this they've caused tremendous problems for Australia. Bad move.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Suiram » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 18:07

In what way? Do you think SARU would care about hurting Australian Rugby?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 18:09

TheStroBro wrote:By doing this they've caused tremendous problems for Australia. Bad move.


I think they may have concerns that Australia will be a reliable partner in the future as they enter a downward spiral in terms of performance and public interest.

The Pro12 move is certainly terrible for Argentina as it isn't hard to see how an Argentine side would be retained if SA leaves.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 18:15

I don't know why you think South Africa isn't having issues with Rugby, only the Stormers have a crowd.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 19:59

It sounds like it's happening to be honest victor.


Well, it is tomorrow the decision.

Many things recently in rugby were anounced and at the last momment we saw a step back. Remember all the troubles of the end of the ERC and th launch of EPCR (trasition Heineken Cup to Champions Cup)? We saw the Welsh teams as confirmed in the Premiership as the South Africans are now in the PRO12. We saw the English withdrewing from the Heineken Cup and than everything changed.

All this madness talks with no basic questions answered (such as players' rest months, Currie Cup's future, etc) isn't new in professional rugby.

If I were betting I would bet that SANZAAR will step back and make 3 conferences of 6, with the Jaguares going to the NZ conference (as there are direct flights from Buenos Aires to Auckland, the only trouble is to find decent TV times for the Jaguares matches. A better trouble than all legal questions will be involved if 3 teams are axed... remember from Buenos Aires to South Africa it takes almost the same time flying because there are no flights, they need to change in São Paulo... the only real benefits for Argentina to be with South Africa are the TV times)

I don't know why you think South Africa isn't having issues with Rugby, only the Stormers have a crowd.


I really want the official data about Super Rugby attendances before being so sure about this. I am pretty sure the Lions (as I showed you before) or the Sharks have better averages than you imagine. Cerainly better than all aussies this season. It is their stadiums' sizes that make a wrong impression.
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 20:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 20:26

I've just found the 2015 Super Rugby Average Attendances list, before the expansion:

Stormers: 40,941 / Bulls: 26,492 / Lions: 24,490 / Sharks: 19,691 / Cheetahs: 17,518.

Highlanders: 18,500 / Crusaders: 14,000 / Hurricanes: 13,097 / Chiefs: 12,752 / Blues: 11,100.

Reds: 20,199 / Waratahs: 19,403 / Force: 11,734 / Rebels: 10,625 / Brumbies: 10,575
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby dropkick » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 22:22

victorsra wrote:I am pretty sure this SA is pure mambo jambo.

There are too many problems involved. First of all, the PRO12 from 2020 will run from Setember to June. Will Cheetahs and Kings players rest in August, the same monyh that starts the Currie Cup? Or people are thinking Cheetahs and Kings supporters will love to dont play the Lions, Bulls, Sharks, WP anymore just to start playing the celts?

This talk has 2 reasons: Cheetahs and Kings they want to put pression on Sanzaar about SR future and SARU is testing how would be the reaction if they move ALL the teams to the Euopean rugby system breaking away. And they wont like to stop playing their South African rivals.

There wont be half breakaway. It doesnt exist. It needs SARU's approval and SARU is a SANZAAR partner. And it needs the supporters to like the idea too.



We'll know tomorrow. I just saw a South African news report that said the Kings first match is expected to be against Munster. The fans didn't look too happy about being cut from super rugby.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vH65sxJVYW8

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Suiram » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 22:48

victorsra wrote:I've just found the 2015 Super Rugby Average Attendances list, before the expansion:

Stormers: 40,941 / Bulls: 26,492 / Lions: 24,490 / Sharks: 19,691 / Cheetahs: 17,518.

Highlanders: 18,500 / Crusaders: 14,000 / Hurricanes: 13,097 / Chiefs: 12,752 / Blues: 11,100.

Reds: 20,199 / Waratahs: 19,403 / Force: 11,734 / Rebels: 10,625 / Brumbies: 10,575


Wow that really puts things in perspective

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby victorsra » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 01:01

Even if SARU axes tomorrow the Cheetahs and the Kings, I ask: will they first try do sue SANZAAR/SARU, like Force and Rebels looks to be doing, and try to block this SR reduction or will the South African simply give up that easily from Super Rugby and move do PRO12?
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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Suiram » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 02:55

I'd guess they would threaten to sue but aim to settle for being bought out to help cover the demanded payments for pro12

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 05:21

victorsra wrote:I've just found the 2015 Super Rugby Average Attendances list, before the expansion:

Stormers: 40,941 / Bulls: 26,492 / Lions: 24,490 / Sharks: 19,691 / Cheetahs: 17,518.

Highlanders: 18,500 / Crusaders: 14,000 / Hurricanes: 13,097 / Chiefs: 12,752 / Blues: 11,100.

Reds: 20,199 / Waratahs: 19,403 / Force: 11,734 / Rebels: 10,625 / Brumbies: 10,575


How did attendance drop so badly for the SA franchise then? These numbers look like a healthy organization relatively speaking.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby rey200 » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 05:23

can you give us the source please, victor?

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 05:49

victorsra wrote:Even if SARU axes tomorrow the Cheetahs and the Kings, I ask: will they first try do sue SANZAAR/SARU, like Force and Rebels looks to be doing, and try to block this SR reduction or will the South African simply give up that easily from Super Rugby and move do PRO12?


A lot of people on SA would rather have all six sides in a NH competition. Quite possibly they wont resist too much because theyre quite happy with this. This is what I expect to happen sooner or later - either that or the whole venture comes crashing down.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 06:49

sk 88 wrote:I think the fact Eurovision gets block funded from France, Germany, Italy, UK and Spanish governments gives it a bit more freedom to do bat-shit insane things. Its also the whole raison d'être of Eurovision to be mental!


Australia's ABC actually was a founding member of the European Broadcasting Union in 1950 and has been involved as an associate member since then - it was in there even 2 years before Germany. Letting them take part in the ESC 65+ years later could be called somewhat conservative :D

Back to rugby: so this seems to be really happening. Not sure how this should work.
I mean if you really have a look one step down, the whole problem of Super Rugby is that they started a franchise system but forgot to adopt the American system with a draft etc. I honestly don't think a closed-shop-league will ever work long-time without the socialist-American approach to distributing players within the league.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 07:25

TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:I've just found the 2015 Super Rugby Average Attendances list, before the expansion:

Stormers: 40,941 / Bulls: 26,492 / Lions: 24,490 / Sharks: 19,691 / Cheetahs: 17,518.

Highlanders: 18,500 / Crusaders: 14,000 / Hurricanes: 13,097 / Chiefs: 12,752 / Blues: 11,100.

Reds: 20,199 / Waratahs: 19,403 / Force: 11,734 / Rebels: 10,625 / Brumbies: 10,575


How did attendance drop so badly for the SA franchise then? These numbers look like a healthy organization relatively speaking.



Fewer derby games reduced interest, the play off system and ladder became a LOT more complex too driving people away as they couldn't understand the comp so mentally switched off, SA economy is getting worse, only the Lions in this period have improved so the rest are getting worse too.

I've also got a feeling these stats are the incomplete ones from statbunker that occasionally float round the internet and didn't include all the SA home games against AUS and NZ teams but only the derbies and a couple of others so are skewed higher than normal.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Figaro » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 07:28

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRug ... y-20170707

Kings & Cheetahs exit from SR confirmed. Article suggests that the Cheetahs had the opportunity to fight this but declined to do so.

Also, according to this article:
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union ... x6qkv.html

While nothing has been confirmed, there are rumours South Africa is on the outer with other southern hemisphere nations, given they are happy to shift teams to the northern hemisphere.

If other South African franchises were to follow suit, as is being assumed, it could leave Super Rugby in disarray, creating the possibility of an exclusively Australian and New Zealand competition.

It is a scenario RUPA chief executive Ross Xenos says makes sense.

"The prospective decision to move two teams into the Pro12 has significant and direct consequences for Australia and Super Rugby," Xenos told Fairfax Media. "It is now very apparent that SARU are testing the waters on the long-term option of their teams playing in European competitions full-time from 2021.


It certainly seems this way if I'm honest - the Saffers seemed a little too keen to send their teams north despite the questionable logic of having two different competitions at the top level, and all the other obstacles to the change. Presumably, if the move is considered a success the other South African teams will head north by 2021.

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Osmanperalta » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 08:01

Cheetahs and kings out of super rugby confirmed

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Horsehead » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 08:14

I think in many ways this could be good for world rugby if SARU aligns with Europe. I'm hoping this would finally open up the 6Ns, I'm also hoping that it would force Australia and NZ into looking into more lucrative markets in Asia and potentially the Americas. I think this will lead to a big battle, one that has been simmering for a while as to who the US will align with competition wise. I just hope that in all this potential restructuring that the pacific islands don't get overlooked again

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby iul » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 09:42

Figaro wrote:http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/confirmed-cheetahs-kings-out-of-super-rugby-20170707

Kings & Cheetahs exit from SR confirmed. Article suggests that the Cheetahs had the opportunity to fight this but declined to do so.

Also, according to this article:
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union ... x6qkv.html

While nothing has been confirmed, there are rumours South Africa is on the outer with other southern hemisphere nations, given they are happy to shift teams to the northern hemisphere.

If other South African franchises were to follow suit, as is being assumed, it could leave Super Rugby in disarray, creating the possibility of an exclusively Australian and New Zealand competition.

It is a scenario RUPA chief executive Ross Xenos says makes sense.

"The prospective decision to move two teams into the Pro12 has significant and direct consequences for Australia and Super Rugby," Xenos told Fairfax Media. "It is now very apparent that SARU are testing the waters on the long-term option of their teams playing in European competitions full-time from 2021.


It certainly seems this way if I'm honest - the Saffers seemed a little too keen to send their teams north despite the questionable logic of having two different competitions at the top level, and all the other obstacles to the change. Presumably, if the move is considered a success the other South African teams will head north by 2021.

Bring the SA teams in Pro12, let NZ and Australia have a competition with a Japanese and a Fiji team and as for Argentina ....uhmmm....

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Re: A Pro12 Expansion

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 10:15

Horsehead wrote:I think in many ways this could be good for world rugby if SARU aligns with Europe. I'm hoping this would finally open up the 6Ns, I'm also hoping that it would force Australia and NZ into looking into more lucrative markets in Asia and potentially the Americas. I think this will lead to a big battle, one that has been simmering for a while as to who the US will align with competition wise. I just hope that in all this potential restructuring that the pacific islands don't get overlooked again


I'm a fan of an eventual merger between the Pro 12 and SR. I think it could facilitate movement in new markets as a means of establishing essentially the NFL of Rugby.

The SARU green lighting the participation of the Kings and Cheetahs is a move in the right direction. I think eventually we'll see all 6 look north. Which would align with my idea of what one division would look like.

Each division would then be split into three conferences of 6 teams.

In the Asia-Pacific we could have our 5, NZ 5, the Supplies and Fiji. These would form two of the three conferences in the AP division. To fill it out ideally the Jaguares would be joined by a 2nd Are/Sth American franchise alongside the slated Washington DC franchise plus three more. Ideally at least one from Canada.

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