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World Rankings

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Rowan » Sun, 02 Aug 2015, 07:34

Muzzy wrote:The games were on a thursday what do you expect.



Just my observations. The size of the crowd only concerned me because the context of the discussion involved the viability of cross-continental competitions involving lower tier teams.

Yes Fiji's skills were all a step down from how they played against Samoa. At least playing a tough game on Saturday then again on Thursday will give them some prep for how its gonna be with the world cup schedule


Right on. I'm a big fan of Fiji, but this was not one of their better performances - for obvious reasons, and Japan were certainly not at their best either. So perhaps they need to change the format again next year to ensure teams are at their best for all fixtures, and that the fixtures are only player on weekends :roll:
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Suiram » Sun, 02 Aug 2015, 09:19

I think this format isnt so bad, but maybe they can stretch it out another week? I also assume that in a non RWC year teams may send their full squads so the overall quality will be higher.

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Re: World Rankings

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 02 Aug 2015, 10:25

Would the PNC be better served to retain the 2 Pool status but expand to 8 teams? Maybe add Hong Kong and Korea (or maybe Uruguay instead even though they aren't a Pacific nation). 3 weekends of pool matches plus one for a final, or maybe have the final as part of the November internationals. Have Japan and USA/Canada alternate as major hosts with Fiji and Samoa hosting a game each as minor hosts. Pools are drawn for the following years tournament after the November internationals.
Last edited by thatrugbyguy on Sun, 02 Aug 2015, 10:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Warpath » Sun, 02 Aug 2015, 10:27

Each team needs to play each other once, no need to run 5 weeks, 4 weeks will do, no FINAL, the winner at the end will be the one with the most points...PNC becomes boring and pathetic when a shitty teams like japan wins because they played weak usa and canada whereas teams like fiji or samoa finish 2nd cost they have to play each other ..

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Kiroshi » Sun, 02 Aug 2015, 14:09

Warpath wrote:Each team needs to play each other once, no need to run 5 weeks, 4 weeks will do, no FINAL, the winner at the end will be the one with the most points...PNC becomes boring and pathetic when a shitty teams like japan wins because they played weak usa and canada whereas teams like fiji or samoa finish 2nd cost they have to play each other ..


What do you exactly mean by shitty? This is a rugby forum not a football forum. Everybody has his own opinion, but to throw a word like that on this forum about Japan's team is just dreadful :!: Also if Japan wins this means that they would have beaten fiji/samoa in the final...

Next time you have an opinion present it with a little bit of respect or just shut up. :x

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Coloradoan » Sun, 02 Aug 2015, 16:42

Warpath wrote:Each team needs to play each other once, no need to run 5 weeks, 4 weeks will do, no FINAL, the winner at the end will be the one with the most points...PNC becomes boring and pathetic when a shitty teams like japan wins because they played weak usa and canada whereas teams like fiji or samoa finish 2nd cost they have to play each other ..


The scenario you describe has never happened, although Canada did beat Fiji the last time they played...

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Rowan » Sun, 02 Aug 2015, 17:27

Warpath wrote:Each team needs to play each other once, no need to run 5 weeks, 4 weeks will do, no FINAL, the winner at the end will be the one with the most points...PNC becomes boring and pathetic when a shitty teams like japan wins because they played weak usa and canada whereas teams like fiji or samoa finish 2nd cost they have to play each other ..


:thumbup: Agree absolutely. At least, they need to go one way or the other. Either it's a round-robin competition like the 6 Nations, or its a two-pool tournament with a final. In the case of the latter, I'd go for a single host nation and 2 week time-frame. ie 2 pools of 3 teams leading to the final, 3rd-place-playoff and 5th-place playoff.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Warpath » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 03:04

Kiroshi wrote:
Warpath wrote:Each team needs to play each other once, no need to run 5 weeks, 4 weeks will do, no FINAL, the winner at the end will be the one with the most points...PNC becomes boring and pathetic when a shitty teams like japan wins because they played weak usa and canada whereas teams like fiji or samoa finish 2nd cost they have to play each other ..


What do you exactly mean by shitty? This is a rugby forum not a football forum. Everybody has his own opinion, but to throw a word like that on this forum about Japan's team is just dreadful :!: Also if Japan wins this means that they would have beaten fiji/samoa in the final...

Next time you have an opinion present it with a little bit of respect or just shut up. :x


Japan cheated its way onto the top 10 by playing lower ranked teams while teams like Fiji and samoa had to play tier 1 teams where losing meant losing ranking points ....so yes, shitty team like japan who neither deserved a place in Super rugby or the right to host a RWC....I remember when PNC was played in Japan, less than 5000 people showed up, what a pathetic place to host a RWC...IRB always favours japan and money, this should stop cause there is infact NO DEVELOPMENT happening at PNC level anymore..

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Re: World Rankings

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 03:21

To be fair that win against Wales probably boosted their rankings points significantly.

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Re: World Rankings

Postby GeoRugby » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 04:05

Japan cheated its way onto the top 10 by playing lower ranked teams while teams


I think Japan beat Italy and Wales to get into top 10. Both were ahead of Japan in rankings at the time, though I am not sure about Italy.

while teams like Fiji and samoa had to play tier 1 teams where losing meant losing ranking points


Are you complaining about having an opportunity to play against tier 1 nations? Would you have preferred Fiji to play lower ranked tier 2 teams? It's obvious that Fiji and Samoa are generally better rugby teams than Japan. Shouldn't that be enough? Who cares about rankings? As for money, in rugby it is all about money, as you say. Fairness has nothing to do with it. That's the nature of the beast. Japan has money and lots of it, so they'll always get preferential treatment. It is harsh, but it's the way it is unfortunately.

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Sables4EVA » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 07:12

GeoRugby wrote:
while teams like Fiji and samoa had to play tier 1 teams where losing meant losing ranking points


Are you complaining about having an opportunity to play against tier 1 nations? Would you have preferred Fiji to play lower ranked tier 2 teams? It's obvious that Fiji and Samoa are generally better rugby teams than Japan. Shouldn't that be enough? Who cares about rankings? As for money, in rugby it is all about money, as you say. Fairness has nothing to do with it. That's the nature of the beast. Japan has money and lots of it, so they'll always get preferential treatment. It is harsh, but it's the way it is unfortunately.


Exactlty, Tier 1 sides still play against PAcific Island teams even though there is really nothing financial for them to gain from it and you're complaining about it. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth. The Pacific Island teams get so much preferential treatment and World Rugby put so much time and funding organising and running tournaments like the Pacific Rugby Cap and the PNC when there is much bigger markets that could do with the time and money like Africa, Asia and South America. Please get real.

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Re: World Rankings

Postby dwpeate » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 07:48

That was the same year that Japan beat Samoa too I believe

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Rowan » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 07:50

The Pacific Islands and their rapidly increasing diaspora in New Zealand are the greatest source of natural raw talent in the game, both XVs and 7s versions, and if World Rugby weren't looking after them they'd probably lose them to league - which has already made vast inroads on that front. So it is rugby which is indebted to the Pacific Islands and not the other way around. &, yes, on form alone Fiji, Samoa and Tonga ought probably to be tier 1, but on-field performance is not the only criteria involved. Japan is not the only big, financially dynamic nation to receive preferential treatment from World Rugby. Italy, of course, is another clear example, with their inclusion in the 6 Nations. Romania's case was just as strong in the 1980s - in terms of results, at least - but the prospect of their inclusion after beating France, Wales and 5 Nations grandslammers Scotland never even got off the ground.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Warpath » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 11:18

dwpeate wrote:That was the same year that Japan beat Samoa too I believe


First game of the month, cause they knew Samoa would not be able to get their best team on time, only 2 "legitimate" Samoan internationals played that day, George Pisi and one in the forwards, if that game had happened 2 weeks later, Samoa would have thrashed them...thats how they cheated, go look at all the games Japan played that year an compare it with fiji and samoa..you will be shocked..

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Re: World Rankings

Postby dwpeate » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 12:15

Maybe so, but surely Samoa would have known this but still decided it was worthwhile test for them. Its not all about rankings...

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Sables4EVA » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 12:44

Rowan wrote:The Pacific Islands and their rapidly increasing diaspora in New Zealand are the greatest source of natural raw talent in the game, both XVs and 7s versions, and if World Rugby weren't looking after them they'd probably lose them to league - which has already made vast inroads on that front. So it is rugby which is indebted to the Pacific Islands and not the other way around. &, yes, on form alone Fiji, Samoa and Tonga ought probably to be tier 1, but on-field performance is not the only criteria involved. Japan is not the only big, financially dynamic nation to receive preferential treatment from World Rugby. Italy, of course, is another clear example, with their inclusion in the 6 Nations. Romania's case was just as strong in the 1980s - in terms of results, at least - but the prospect of their inclusion after beating France, Wales and 5 Nations grandslammers Scotland never even got off the ground.


I disagree, the Pacific Island nations would be nothing if it wasn't for their proximity to New Zealand. The greatest source of raw talent is in Africa. The only reason Africa doesn't have more countries at the level of the Pacific Islands or better is because of money. The Pacific Islands are at a plateau and may have the odd decent result against the big teams but will never reach much higher standards, I think this also applies to Namibia. Countries like Kenya, Zimbabwe and Uganda have the populations to grow to be true powerhouses with the right funding and administration in the fullness of time.

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Re: World Rankings

Postby iul » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 13:06

Sables4EVA wrote:
Rowan wrote:The Pacific Islands and their rapidly increasing diaspora in New Zealand are the greatest source of natural raw talent in the game, both XVs and 7s versions, and if World Rugby weren't looking after them they'd probably lose them to league - which has already made vast inroads on that front. So it is rugby which is indebted to the Pacific Islands and not the other way around. &, yes, on form alone Fiji, Samoa and Tonga ought probably to be tier 1, but on-field performance is not the only criteria involved. Japan is not the only big, financially dynamic nation to receive preferential treatment from World Rugby. Italy, of course, is another clear example, with their inclusion in the 6 Nations. Romania's case was just as strong in the 1980s - in terms of results, at least - but the prospect of their inclusion after beating France, Wales and 5 Nations grandslammers Scotland never even got off the ground.


I disagree, the Pacific Island nations would be nothing if it wasn't for their proximity to New Zealand. The greatest source of raw talent is in Africa. The only reason Africa doesn't have more countries at the level of the Pacific Islands or better is because of money. The Pacific Islands are at a plateau and may have the odd decent result against the big teams but will never reach much higher standards, I think this also applies to Namibia. Countries like Kenya, Zimbabwe and Uganda have the populations to grow to be true powerhouses with the right funding and administration in the fullness of time.

Fiji mosly make their own players without much reliance on NZ.
I also doubt the PIs have reached their maximum heights. They all suffer from poor management. If they'd bring in some competent foreign union admin that wouldn't give a shit about internal politics and would just do whatever is best for the PIs they could very well fix their scrummaging issues and become even more competitive than they already are.
Japan has clearly demonstrated fixing the scrum is possible in a relatively short time frame. Add in some better main coaches + better defensive coaches + better fitness coaches and there's no reason why you couldn't turn the PIs into teams that could regulalry beat any 6N teams and some of the SANZAR teams ocasionally as well.

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Hinato » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 15:51

Warpath wrote:
dwpeate wrote:That was the same year that Japan beat Samoa too I believe


First game of the month, cause they knew Samoa would not be able to get their best team on time, only 2 "legitimate" Samoan internationals played that day, George Pisi and one in the forwards, if that game had happened 2 weeks later, Samoa would have thrashed them...thats how they cheated, go look at all the games Japan played that year an compare it with fiji and samoa..you will be shocked..


You are clearly a big racist who has a grudge against the Japan.

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Warpath » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 21:51

Hinato wrote:
Warpath wrote:
dwpeate wrote:That was the same year that Japan beat Samoa too I believe


First game of the month, cause they knew Samoa would not be able to get their best team on time, only 2 "legitimate" Samoan internationals played that day, George Pisi and one in the forwards, if that game had happened 2 weeks later, Samoa would have thrashed them...thats how they cheated, go look at all the games Japan played that year an compare it with fiji and samoa..you will be shocked..


You are clearly a big racist who has a grudge against the Japan.

Japan lost in the PNC this year o USA, Fiji and now Tonga...... Racist am I? more like Japan is one boring team that should be at the bottom of tier 2 ..

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Re: World Rankings

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 21:59

Speaking of Africa, is any reason WR can't put together an 'Atlantic' T2 championship that runs concurrently with the PNC? Namibia, Kenya and Zimbabwe from Africa and Uruguay, Brazil and another South American nation (Chile/Paraguay).

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Rowan » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 22:13

iul wrote:
Sables4EVA wrote:
Rowan wrote:The Pacific Islands and their rapidly increasing diaspora in New Zealand are the greatest source of natural raw talent in the game, both XVs and 7s versions, and if World Rugby weren't looking after them they'd probably lose them to league - which has already made vast inroads on that front. So it is rugby which is indebted to the Pacific Islands and not the other way around. &, yes, on form alone Fiji, Samoa and Tonga ought probably to be tier 1, but on-field performance is not the only criteria involved. Japan is not the only big, financially dynamic nation to receive preferential treatment from World Rugby. Italy, of course, is another clear example, with their inclusion in the 6 Nations. Romania's case was just as strong in the 1980s - in terms of results, at least - but the prospect of their inclusion after beating France, Wales and 5 Nations grandslammers Scotland never even got off the ground.


I disagree, the Pacific Island nations would be nothing if it wasn't for their proximity to New Zealand. The greatest source of raw talent is in Africa. The only reason Africa doesn't have more countries at the level of the Pacific Islands or better is because of money. The Pacific Islands are at a plateau and may have the odd decent result against the big teams but will never reach much higher standards, I think this also applies to Namibia. Countries like Kenya, Zimbabwe and Uganda have the populations to grow to be true powerhouses with the right funding and administration in the fullness of time.

Fiji mosly make their own players without much reliance on NZ.
I also doubt the PIs have reached their maximum heights. They all suffer from poor management. If they'd bring in some competent foreign union admin that wouldn't give a shit about internal politics and would just do whatever is best for the PIs they could very well fix their scrummaging issues and become even more competitive than they already are.
Japan has clearly demonstrated fixing the scrum is possible in a relatively short time frame. Add in some better main coaches + better defensive coaches + better fitness coaches and there's no reason why you couldn't turn the PIs into teams that could regulalry beat any 6N teams and some of the SANZAR teams ocasionally as well.


I think some valid points have been made on both sides of the issue here, but I have to say I'm starting to weary a little of all this talk about 'potential growth markets,' because that's all it is at this stage - talk. Rugby turned professional 20 years ago and as yet we haven't seen any of these 'potential growth markets' come to fruition. It's still the same old same old. In fact, Argentina aside, the big success story of the professional age has actually been the rise of Samoa (believe it or not they were minnows in the amateur era). Yes, this has been due in no small part of the NZ diaspora, and it is precisely this which will ensure Samoa continues to play a big role in the future of international rugby, in spite of its tiny domestic population. As for the likes of Zimbabwe, Kenya and Uganda, they're hardly new to the game. Quite the reverse, in fact, even if it was the domain of the white settler in its early years. The Africans have had plenty of time to fulfill their potential, and we'd all love to see that happen, but unfortunately they are hindered by severe economic limitations, and that's unlikely to change much in the foreseeable future. Regrettably, change comes very slowly to international rugby, and I'd be surprised if the pecking order in 2050 is really a lot different to today's.

Speaking of Africa, is any reason WR can't put together an 'Atlantic' T2 championship that runs concurrently with the PNC? Namibia, Kenya and Zimbabwe from Africa and Uruguay, Brazil and another South American nation (Chile/Paraguay).


Obviously it would be Chile, but the big question here is WHY? These teams get plenty of solid match practise against their own neighbours. Running an expensive tournament like that would hold no value. The PNC is there because the competing teams, all tier 2, don't have enough worthy neighbours to stage their own regional competitions. That's not a problem for tier 3 CONSUR and African teams.

You are clearly a big racist who has a grudge against the Japan.


Come on Hinato. Bagging another country's rugby team is hardly racist, even if some of the criticisms did seem a bit rough. Japan had a fantastic season last year, for sure.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: World Rankings

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 22:32

Isn't your biggest beef with WR that they aren't doing enough for countries outside the established nations?

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Rowan » Mon, 03 Aug 2015, 22:45

Kind of. My big beef with World Rugby is that they are preventing the so-called 'emerging' or 'developing' nations from attaining the same high standards as the top teams by depriving them of regular and meaningful competition against those teams outside of World Cups. This is why the World Cup continues to be dominated time and again by the same teams. A tier 3 Atlantic Cup would just be more tier 3 teams against other tier 3 teams. What they need is more experience against tier 2 (and 1) teams, just as tier 2 teams need more games against tier 1 sides - something the closed shop nature of rugby's elite international competitions prevents. That's my beef.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Blackdevil » Tue, 04 Aug 2015, 03:13

the only thing i doesn't like with japan is the fact they bring nz mercenary to their team, except that fact they have progressed a lot and it's good to see them hosting the world cup

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Re: World Rankings

Postby Warpath » Tue, 04 Aug 2015, 03:21

Rankings come Monday:

8) Argentina 77.18
9) Fiji 77.03
10) Tonga 75.25
11) Samoa 75.14
12) Scotland 74.79
13) Georgia 72.16
14) Italy 71.85
15) Japan 71.15
16) USA 69.10
17) Romania 66.73
18) Canada 64.55

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