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Spanish rugby

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 23 May 2018, 14:56

José Luis Astiazarán, former Real Sociedad football club and LaLiga president, will advise new clubs association according to Veintidós:
https://www.revista22.es/2018/05/un-hom ... de-clubes/

My only concern about him if the fact he was linked to a doping affair and payments to Eufemiano Fuentes back in 2002. But well, he's somebody from outside Spanish rugby and that's very much needed.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 23 May 2018, 17:47

Armchair Fan wrote:To me it's great. I always defended that if Valladolid wanted a big event this season they could move the League final to the football stadium. I'm glad we have two Spanish club games in football stadiums (Cup and League finals) instead of only one (Cup) and I won't shout it's a failure if they don't fill Zorrilla. But let's not hide what his motivations are, it's key to understand why this is happening.

I still think FER and Spanish rugby in general must make efforts to ensure we don't rely too much on Valladolid. There isn't a sugar daddy there like in Heidelberg. Clubs aren't as rich as those from Krasnoyarsk. It's a mid-sized city with old population. I know Valladolid guys hate when I say these things, but it's key to look at the broader picture.


Could you elaborate on that part about hiding his motivations? It seems rugby is popular in this city but is Spain focusing too much on it or something?

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 23 May 2018, 18:36

Óscar Puente became in 2015 the first socialist mayor of Valladolid for 20 years. And he did by forming a coalition with other left-wing parties, including communists. He needs to leave his footprint in the city because the most probable outcome is to lose elections in 2019. One of his political allies, Alberto Bustos, is in charge of sport in the townhall and is adored by everybody. Man, even though he is a communist I've had talks with very right-wing people praising him. They've realised sport is a great way to showcase their ability and they supported the bid to move Copa del Rey final to Zorrilla city-owned football stadium in 2016.

Valladolid town hall basically bankrolled it and they ensured media impact by sending an invite to the King of Spain, who finally attended. But frictions with Spanish Rugby Union quickly surfaced. For example Zorrilla stadium has ads from one beer brewery (Mahou) while FER is sponsored by a different one (Heineken). And for 2017 FER raised the requirements bar since 2016 final was successful. Plus other bids came from Torrelavega and Logroño. In Valladolid they even believe that Torrelavega was a phantom bid fueled by FER only to force Valladolid to outbid, adding insult to injury as Spain v Georgia REC 2017 game was held in Medina del Campo, 60 km away from Valladolid (they offered 10,000€ more and Valladolid wanted to play at Pepe Rojo rugby pitch, not Zorrilla stadium).

Fast-forward to 2018. FER decides to give Valencia the Cup final. Puente explodes. And is very strong in his attacks to FER. I'm sorry but they were so harsh against Alfonso Feijóo, with some arguments clearly false (especially regarding finances and theoretical mismanagement in FER) it can only be justified by a will of making the most from a political POV: it's all part of the easily-sold dialectics of "hey, they want to control us from the capital city" that you can see in basically every country in the world.

The only reason why Liga Heineken final is held at Zorrilla is because Valladolid mayor wanted to. He wants to give FER a slap in the face. Which is great. But stupid at the same time. What kind of slap is to gather 15,000+ crowds twice instead of once in a season?

--

'Almost 11,000 tickets sold' according to clubs on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/VRAC/status/999360479586930688

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 23 May 2018, 19:20

Very well then. Also saw that Astiazaran is being hired to make the entire league professional. Any idea how they will scale up to this? Will it be something like MLR with a low salary cap and most players part time?

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby rey200 » Wed, 23 May 2018, 19:58

The only reason why Liga Heineken final is held at Zorrilla is because Valladolid mayor wanted to. He wants to give FER a slap in the face. Which is great. But stupid at the same time. What kind of slap is to gather 15,000+ crowds twice instead of once in a season?


it's a great way to slap. If conflicts around the world were so profitable to the benefit of something other than power and glory of some moron the earth would be a much more pleasant place to live on

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 23 May 2018, 20:14

Armchair Fan wrote:Óscar Puente became in 2015 the first socialist mayor of Valladolid for 20 years. And he did by forming a coalition with other left-wing parties, including communists. He needs to leave his footprint in the city because the most probable outcome is to lose elections in 2019. One of his political allies, Alberto Bustos, is in charge of sport in the townhall and is adored by everybody. Man, even though he is a communist I've had talks with very right-wing people praising him. They've realised sport is a great way to showcase their ability and they supported the bid to move Copa del Rey final to Zorrilla city-owned football stadium in 2016.

Valladolid town hall basically bankrolled it and they ensured media impact by sending an invite to the King of Spain, who finally attended. But frictions with Spanish Rugby Union quickly surfaced. For example Zorrilla stadium has ads from one beer brewery (Mahou) while FER is sponsored by a different one (Heineken). And for 2017 FER raised the requirements bar since 2016 final was successful. Plus other bids came from Torrelavega and Logroño. In Valladolid they even believe that Torrelavega was a phantom bid fueled by FER only to force Valladolid to outbid, adding insult to injury as Spain v Georgia REC 2017 game was held in Medina del Campo, 60 km away from Valladolid (they offered 10,000€ more and Valladolid wanted to play at Pepe Rojo rugby pitch, not Zorrilla stadium).

Fast-forward to 2018. FER decides to give Valencia the Cup final. Puente explodes. And is very strong in his attacks to FER. I'm sorry but they were so harsh against Alfonso Feijóo, with some arguments clearly false (especially regarding finances and theoretical mismanagement in FER) it can only be justified by a will of making the most from a political POV: it's all part of the easily-sold dialectics of "hey, they want to control us from the capital city" that you can see in basically every country in the world.

The only reason why Liga Heineken final is held at Zorrilla is because Valladolid mayor wanted to. He wants to give FER a slap in the face. Which is great. But stupid at the same time. What kind of slap is to gather 15,000+ crowds twice instead of once in a season?

--

'Almost 11,000 tickets sold' according to clubs on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/VRAC/status/999360479586930688


Why don't they just put Heineken Banners up over the Mahou stuff? Not hard to do.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 23 May 2018, 20:34

I think the issue is that Zorrilla doesn't want to cover up its own sponsor's ads and FER wants to show only Heineken because it's the league namesake.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 23 May 2018, 21:20

Tobar wrote:I think the issue is that Zorrilla doesn't want to cover up its own sponsor's ads and FER wants to show only Heineken because it's the league namesake.


Yeah, but sponsor activation is a normal thing in the sports business. Basically we're talking about people stuck in backwardsville.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 23 May 2018, 22:20

Tobar wrote:Very well then. Also saw that Astiazaran is being hired to make the entire league professional. Any idea how they will scale up to this? Will it be something like MLR with a low salary cap and most players part time?

Well, making the entire league professional isn't going to happen tomorrow. They aren't creating a new league from scratch but trying to change what currently exists. It will take some time.

rey200 wrote:
The only reason why Liga Heineken final is held at Zorrilla is because Valladolid mayor wanted to. He wants to give FER a slap in the face. Which is great. But stupid at the same time. What kind of slap is to gather 15,000+ crowds twice instead of once in a season?


it's a great way to slap. If conflicts around the world were so profitable to the benefit of something other than power and glory of some moron the earth would be a much more pleasant place to live on


Sure, it's better to have somebody like him than somebody totally ignoring rugby. But the main drive is his personal interest in the matter, the fact he's at odds with FER president.

TheStroBro wrote:Why don't they just put Heineken Banners up over the Mahou stuff? Not hard to do.


They did. At 2:00 AM before 2016 final and after FER president menaced to cancel the game and calling the King to tell him not to come.

It's all part of struggles between clubs and union. A couple of years ago clubs already threw to the bin a TV deal because of sponsors conflicts between breweries.

Tobar wrote:I think the issue is that Zorrilla doesn't want to cover up its own sponsor's ads and FER wants to show only Heineken because it's the league namesake.

Zorrilla is a city-owned stadium. But mainly used by Real Valladolid football club. Mahou sponsors Real Valladolid. And football clubs are immensely powerful in Spain. In my hometown our football club 'stole' the city-owned athletics stadium to train there, their players park their cars on the track and when Spain held a test match there, the football club asked for insurances that the grass wasn't going to be damaged. Keep in mind I'm talking about an athletics stadium they didn't even own.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 23 May 2018, 23:45

Armchair Fan wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:Why don't they just put Heineken Banners up over the Mahou stuff? Not hard to do.


They did. At 2:00 AM before 2016 final and after FER president menaced to cancel the game and calling the King to tell him not to come.

It's all part of struggles between clubs and union. A couple of years ago clubs already threw to the bin a TV deal because of sponsors conflicts between breweries.


I don't know why we would call this menacing. Sponsorship activation and tear down is a 'battle-rhythm' event in American Sports. I get it, not America, but this is professionalism we're talking about right?

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Neptune » Thu, 24 May 2018, 00:58

I actually feel extremely sorry for Spain, had it not have been for the politics brought in by the Romanian referee, Spain would be sailing to Japan irregardless of the turnout of events currently.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 24 May 2018, 06:48

TheStroBro wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:Why don't they just put Heineken Banners up over the Mahou stuff? Not hard to do.


They did. At 2:00 AM before 2016 final and after FER president menaced to cancel the game and calling the King to tell him not to come.

It's all part of struggles between clubs and union. A couple of years ago clubs already threw to the bin a TV deal because of sponsors conflicts between breweries.


I don't know why we would call this menacing. Sponsorship activation and tear down is a 'battle-rhythm' event in American Sports. I get it, not America, but this is professionalism we're talking about right?


It is not professional and that's were the problem is.
I'm 100% with the FER president here. They have a contract with a brewery => there can't be any other advertisements from other breweries in the stadium.
That's a no brainer. If they don't make sure this is the case, they had a brewery as a sponsor.
Even if Mahou is definitely a better beer than the pisswater Heineken is.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby amz » Thu, 24 May 2018, 06:50

Neptune wrote:I actually feel extremely sorry for Spain, had it not have been for the politics brought in by the Romanian referee, Spain would be sailing to Japan irregardless of the turnout of events currently.


Really? How would have Spain solved the ineligibility issues? :)

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 24 May 2018, 06:55

rey200 wrote:
The only reason why Liga Heineken final is held at Zorrilla is because Valladolid mayor wanted to. He wants to give FER a slap in the face. Which is great. But stupid at the same time. What kind of slap is to gather 15,000+ crowds twice instead of once in a season?


it's a great way to slap. If conflicts around the world were so profitable to the benefit of something other than power and glory of some moron the earth would be a much more pleasant place to live on

It is exactly my opinion also. I would like in Romania some morons like him:)

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 24 May 2018, 06:58

amz wrote:
Neptune wrote:I actually feel extremely sorry for Spain, had it not have been for the politics brought in by the Romanian referee, Spain would be sailing to Japan irregardless of the turnout of events currently.


Really? How would have Spain solved the ineligibility issues? :)


I think Neptune's theory is that, if nothing would have happened at this game, nobody would have brought up the eligibility thing. We all now that this is an uneducated guess as Russia brought up the issues and I have no doubt they would have done so no matter what the result was.
And we all know that this issues needed to be adressed and I think we can agree that the outcome is extremely harsh for Spain and for Romania.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby amz » Thu, 24 May 2018, 07:06

RugbyLiebe wrote:
I think Neptune's theory is that, if nothing would have happened at this game, nobody would have brought up the eligibility thing. We all now that this is an uneducated guess as Russia brought up the issues and I have no doubt they would have done so no matter what the result was.
And we all know that this issues needed to be adressed and I think we can agree that the outcome is extremely harsh for Spain and for Romania.


I think it is extremely ignorant from his part to have this theory after all what was written here, after all this is the best place to find info about T2 rugby. It is maybe a harsh conclusion from my part but it's difficult to have other opinion when all the info is under your nose and you can't see it.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Thomas » Thu, 24 May 2018, 07:57

I understand sales have gone above the 12K? can that be confirmed or corroborated? Irrespective of the beer politics. A good crowd at Zorilla will finish the season on a high. What is the base number that FER are looking in terms of attendance?
12k? 15k? I know above 15k is ambitious and a bonus but what kind of crowd will satisfy all parties?

What are your predictions? who will win

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 24 May 2018, 08:06

Club presidents are aiming at between 12 and 15,000. Valladolid mayor wants a full stadium. FER hasn't said a word but people keep obsessed with having over 15,159 (Valencia Cup final crowd) so Feijóo is 'shamefully' beaten.

VRAC should win comfortably. They are a step above their neighbours and three steps above the rest. The money they didn't want to spend in order to play Continental Shield went to hire a Super Rugby scrum-half (Chris Eaton), a great Argentinian fly-half from Eccellenza (Tomás Carrió) and an Argentinian champion lock (Sacha Casañas), as well as two of the best young players in Spain (Alvar Gimeno and Gabriel Vélez) and Mario Barandiaran as Director of Rugby. El Salvador would need a miracle (or a top game by Sam Katz, just returned from a season at Massy in ProD2).

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Thomas » Thu, 24 May 2018, 08:33

Armchair Fan wrote:Club presidents are aiming at between 12 and 15,000. Valladolid mayor wants a full stadium. FER hasn't said a word but people keep obsessed with having over 15,159 (Valencia Cup final crowd) so Feijóo is 'shamefully' beaten.


Hahaha that old chestnut, is so last year seriously...

Armchair Fan wrote: VRAC should win comfortably. They are a step above their neighbours and three steps above the rest. The money they didn't want to spend in order to play Continental Shield went to hire a Super Rugby scrum-half (Chris Eaton), a great Argentinian fly-half from Eccellenza (Tomás Carrió) and an Argentinian champion lock (Sacha Casañas), as well as two of the best young players in Spain (Alvar Gimeno and Gabriel Vélez) and Mario Barandiaran as Director of Rugby. El Salvador would need a miracle (or a top game by Sam Katz, just returned from a season at Massy in ProD2).


Eaton who played for the canes and Force that Chris Eaton? I thought Carrio was a winger and Full back from his Pumas days?

so if VRAC Win will they play in Europe next year do they have what it takes? That is a lot of money on a few players. what is the long game? aside from being the best team in Spain what is the end goal?
Last edited by Thomas on Thu, 24 May 2018, 08:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 24 May 2018, 08:42

From an outsider view, VRAC only goal looks to beat the others to show their Valladolid supremacy :)).

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 24 May 2018, 09:57

Thomas wrote:Eaton who played for the canes and Force that Chris Eaton? I thought Carrio was a winger and Full back from his Pumas days?

so if VRAC Win will they play in Europe next year do they have what it takes? That is a lot of money on a few players. what is the long game? aside from being the best team in Spain what is the end goal?

Exactly, that Chris Eaton. Carrió has been playing fly-half right from the beginning and looked pretty good, but in Spain we've got a big shortage on 10 because very few know how to kick. For example that was the main criticism for Alvar Gimeno, who has been reconverted into a 12 in both VRAC and Spanish national team.

It would surprise me if they play Continental Shield. Their coach was against it last season. Their managers were against it too. The fact they won everything at national stage 'proves' they did the right thing by declining to play in Europe. I hope they have the courage to do so, but let's be honest, even with that financial advantage over the rest of Spanish teams they are still miles away from leading European Tier 2 teams. The most they can aim for is some victory against a not-too-bothered Italian team and maybe the Georgian entrant if faced at home. It would be almost impossible to beat Krasny Yar or Timisoara Saracens.

Anyway I must say it's not everything about money. As stated in other threads, Spain attracts Southern Hemisphere talent for other reasons than good salaries. If they are veterans, they find it's a decent place where to move with their families. If young, they believe being in Europe will catch the eye of guys in France or Italy. Argentinians often come to finish their studies (Casañas came to finish medicine, for example) and homologate them within the EU. They can also apply for permanent residency... And there are so many Kiwis and Argentinians who have come here for the last decade that people still there have good references about Spanish rugby.

Bogdan_DC wrote:From an outsider view, VRAC only goal looks to beat the others to show their Valladolid supremacy :)).

Probably. Even Valladolid journalists have openly said that their teams went too far this season and asked on air if they really needed to hire so many top players to beat a bunch of amateur guys.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 24 May 2018, 14:27

Bogdan_DC wrote:
rey200 wrote:
The only reason why Liga Heineken final is held at Zorrilla is because Valladolid mayor wanted to. He wants to give FER a slap in the face. Which is great. But stupid at the same time. What kind of slap is to gather 15,000+ crowds twice instead of once in a season?


it's a great way to slap. If conflicts around the world were so profitable to the benefit of something other than power and glory of some moron the earth would be a much more pleasant place to live on

It is exactly my opinion also. I would like in Romania some morons like him:)


Screw you guys, I'm going to create TWO successful rugby events! Ha! That will show you!

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 24 May 2018, 14:38

So these Spanish teams have some talent but a lot of it seems foreign - whether that's a Super Rugby player or Argentinians coming up for a few seasons. Do these teams have any youth programs and academy systems in place to increase the overall level of Spanish players (and as a result, fans) in the area? Since they're trying to make the league professional now, if they don't have youth programs (or good enough programs), will they be forced to create them? I would assume that they have them given their histories but never know.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 24 May 2018, 14:47

Tobar wrote: Do these teams have any youth programs and academy systems in place to increase the overall level of Spanish players (and as a result, fans) in the area?


Go back one page and see the numbers :D
Looks good for a tier3-nation for me. Very good actually.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 24 May 2018, 15:17

Tobar wrote:So these Spanish teams have some talent but a lot of it seems foreign - whether that's a Super Rugby player or Argentinians coming up for a few seasons. Do these teams have any youth programs and academy systems in place to increase the overall level of Spanish players (and as a result, fans) in the area? Since they're trying to make the league professional now, if they don't have youth programs (or good enough programs), will they be forced to create them? I would assume that they have them given their histories but never know.

VRAC has:
- A Liga Heineken team
- Two senior regional teams, one of them looking for promotion into Spanish second-tier league
- A U18 team playing in Madrid
- Two U16 teams, one in Madrid and another in Castilla y León
- Three U14 teams, one in Madrid and two in Castilla y León
- Three U12 teams entered in Spanish Tournament
- Four U10 teams entered in Spanish Tournament
- Six U8 teams entered in Spanish Tournament
- Four U6 teams entered in Spanish Tournament

El Salvador has:
- A Liga Heineken team
- A División de Honor B team (second-tier national league)
- A regional league senior team
- A U18 team playing in Madrid
- Two U16 teams, one in Madrid and another in Castilla y León
- Three U14 teams, one in Madrid and two in Castilla y León
- Four U12 teams entered in Spanish Tournament
- Four U10 teams entered in Spanish Tournament
- Four U8 teams entered in Spanish Tournament
- Four U6 teams entered in Spanish Tournament
- An 'academy' (further training and talks about nutrition and S&C sponsored by Carrefour), senior touch rugby and mixed ability teams

As you see, the issue isn't a lack of players. The issue is many players leave rugby after U18 to pursue studies. Even if they have the best Spanish clubs in their city, no one really thinks they stand a chance to become pro, some just prefer to do teenager things instead of sacrificing their youth, etc... Some make the cut, but they are the lesser: Alejandro Alonso is playing in the Sevens World Series aged 19, his brother Martín is in Clermont, Juan Martínez was recently named MVP in U18 Rugby Europe 7s Championship even though France, Ireland and GB were taking part, El Salvador has a national scrum-half (Juan Ramos, aged 21) who can't play with Spain due to his engineering exams clashing with June internationals...

El Salvador tries to maintain the link by keeping a second-tier league team full of Spaniards so they are better used to playing against pro players (you find Pacific Islanders even there). VRAC attracts talent from other Spanish clubs, usually Marbella or Valencia.

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