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Spanish rugby

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 05:32

Armchair Fan wrote:Yes, Little Heysel instead of Nelson Mandela. Weather is way better than that week, so pitch shouldn't be frozen. But it's rainy, so I expect an ugly and tense match.

We still haven't got a squad because some players depend on their wives... Charly Malié is coming today after he became a dad yesterday, while Beñat Auzqui has returned to Grenoble and I don't know the state of her missus pregnancy.


I wonder if we will have the very unusual sight of away fans outnumbering locals, or at least making up a significant portion of the crowd.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 09:20

REUTERS' FEATURE

https://uk.reuters.com/article/rugby-un ... KL8N1QV3YF

Rugby on the rise in Spain as World Cup looms large
MONUMENTAL WIN | STRENGTH AND PRIDE

I simply have very little time to bysect this and rely on your deep knowledge on Spanish matters

ENJOY and pls, point at (wrong) stuff

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 09:59

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:REUTERS' FEATURE

https://uk.reuters.com/article/rugby-un ... KL8N1QV3YF

Rugby on the rise in Spain as World Cup looms large
MONUMENTAL WIN | STRENGTH AND PRIDE

I simply have very little time to bysect this and rely on your deep knowledge on Spanish matters

ENJOY and pls, point at (wrong) stuff


- "210 rugby clubs in Spain and 35,000 registered players". It was 31,692 and 282 in 2016, so the players figure may be right but the other one is plain wrong.
- "10 percent of whom are female". It's closer to 15% than 10%, it was 13.7% in 2016 and their growth rate is much bigger.
- "There is big homegrown backbone to his side". Really?
- "Guillaume Rouet, who plays for Top-14 side Bayonne". Pro D2 right now.
- "Fullback Thibaut Alvarez". Centre.
- "Others, such as New Zealanders Brad Linklater and Dan Snee and British players Josh Peters, Matthew Foulds and Stephen Barnes qualified after gaining Spanish residency". Not really wrong, but just pointing out Peters qualified due to 10 years non-consecutive residency (lived in Málaga between 2 and 17), while the rest did through 3 years consecutive residency.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 10:20

Thank you

I conclude that Reuters have much improved their knowledge of T2 rugby ... lately
as in the previous decade their info's credibility sometimes was appalling

SOME of their perls -- which emerged randomly from my sour memories:

Soviets were excluded from 1987 RWC
'cause they insisted on including several South Africans in their squad

Non-exsistent person -- Gia Gigularashvili -- was a Georgia manager for RWC 2003

Russia v Ukraine RWC qualifier drew a crowd of 50K -- TRUE, but not in rugby >> soccer

Georgia got a discarded tractor and turned it into scrum machine

etc etc

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 15:05

Armchair Fan wrote:
FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:REUTERS' FEATURE

https://uk.reuters.com/article/rugby-un ... KL8N1QV3YF

Rugby on the rise in Spain as World Cup looms large
MONUMENTAL WIN | STRENGTH AND PRIDE

I simply have very little time to bysect this and rely on your deep knowledge on Spanish matters

ENJOY and pls, point at (wrong) stuff


- "210 rugby clubs in Spain and 35,000 registered players". It was 31,692 and 282 in 2016, so the players figure may be right but the other one is plain wrong.
- "10 percent of whom are female". It's closer to 15% than 10%, it was 13.7% in 2016 and their growth rate is much bigger.
- "There is big homegrown backbone to his side". Really?
- "Guillaume Rouet, who plays for Top-14 side Bayonne". Pro D2 right now.
- "Fullback Thibaut Alvarez". Centre.
- "Others, such as New Zealanders Brad Linklater and Dan Snee and British players Josh Peters, Matthew Foulds and Stephen Barnes qualified after gaining Spanish residency". Not really wrong, but just pointing out Peters qualified due to 10 years non-consecutive residency (lived in Málaga between 2 and 17), while the rest did through 3 years consecutive residency.


I would suggest that the numbers are probably wrong because they're going off of old data, or data that isn't very accurate. I've noticed that whenever someone talks rugby who doesn't always follow it they tend to just throw out the first numbers they hear. But anyway, it's still great to see MSM covering rugby.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Superhans » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 23:25

Does anyone know if there are other players eligible for Spain in the top professional leagues? Guys who haven't made themselves available to Spain in the past but who might do so if they qualify for the world cup.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 23:57

Yes, there are. I can't say how many exactly, but there are few both through ancestry and non-consecutive residency (10 years in Spain but not living currently here). It is said some French players from Top 14 and ProD2 called Spanish Rugby Union right after the victory against Romania.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 15 Mar 2018, 13:34

News from Valencia:
http://www.lasprovincias.es/deportes/ma ... -ntvo.html

- Over 8,000 tickets sold for Copa del Rey final next April 29
- Aiming at bringing a Spain test match before 2019 Rugby World Cup
- Will bid for a Women's Sevens World Series round
- Want to gather a budget of around 350,000€ to have senior teams at national men and women top-tier leagues
- There is a plan to build a 3,000 seater rugby-only stadium

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 15 Mar 2018, 13:57

Armchair Fan wrote:Yes, there are. I can't say how many exactly, but there are few both through ancestry and non-consecutive residency (10 years in Spain but not living currently here). It is said some French players from Top 14 and ProD2 called Spanish Rugby Union right after the victory against Romania.


Carpetbaggers!

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 09:59

Liga Heineken - Week 18 - Results
UE Santboiana 29 - 26 VRAC Quesos Entrepinares :shock:
SilverStorm El Salvador 50 - 20 FC Barcelona
Sanitas Alcobendas 31 - 29 Bizkaia Gernika
Senor Independiente 61 - 33 Hernani
Ampo Ordizia 37 - 21 Complutense Cisneros
Getxo Artea 18 - 22 La Vila

Liga Heineken - Week 19 - Results
VRAC Quesos Entrepinares 46 - 45 Ampo Ordizia :shock:
Hernani 12 - 40 SilverStorm El Salvador
La Vila 20 - 21 Sanitas Alcobendas :shock:
Bizkaia Gernika 15 - 10 Senor Independiente :shock:
FC Barcelona 16 - 12 UE Santboiana :shock:
Complutense 48 - 27 Getxo Artea

Standings with three rounds to go
Image

No highlights for the last two weeks since FER looks too busy with other topics :roll:

--

Promotion play-off is about to start:
- UBU-Colina Clinic (Burgos) v Fénix (Zaragoza)
- CRC Pozuelo-Universidad Francisco de Vitoria (Madrid) v CAU Valencia
- Ciencias Fundación Cajasol (Sevilla) v Liceo Francés (Madrid)
- Les Abelles (Valencia) v Bathco Rugby Club (Santander)

Except for the first one (Burgos is the clear favorite to be promoted) all should be close and exciting.

--

Squad for European U20 Championship. Alejandro Alonso is in both this team and Hong Kong 7s training list, so there may be some changes. I'll put an * alongside players who took part in 2017 U20 championship (8).
- Juan Carrasco (Ciencias Fundación Cajasol)
- Manuel Moreno (Ciencias Fundación Cajasol)
- Daniel Barranco (CR Sant Cugat)
- Jorge Ortiz (CR Sant Cugat)
- Rochedi Mirabert (FC Barcelona)*
- Nil Gabarro (UE Santboiana)
- Jorge Blanco (SilverStorm El Salvador)
- Alejandro Alonso (VRAC Quesos Entrepinares)*
- Pedro González (Real Oviedo)
- Víctor Sánchez (Senor Independiente)*
- José Díaz (CRC Pozuelo-Universidad Francisco de Vitoria)
- Lucas Martín (CRC Pozuelo-Universidad Francisco de Vitoria)
- Francisco Javier Prieto (Liceo Francés)
- Gorka Gorrotxategi (Complutense Cisneros)
- Alberto Mendoza (Complutense Cisneros)*
- Tomás Munilla (Complutense Cisneros)*
- Álex Acarreta (Bera Bera)
- Aitor Lasa (Getxo Artea)
- Lander Mújica (Ampo Ordizia)
- Miguel Bermejo (Les Abelles)
- Tony Mammen (Old Albanians, England)
- Facundo López Bontempo (CUS Torino, Italy)
- Peio Gil (Stade Hendayais, France)*
- Martín Alonso (ASM Clermont Auvergne, France)
- Alexis Brun (Stade Bordelais ASPTT, France)*
- Simon Zubizarreta (Stade Montois, France)
- Hugo Souto (RFC Saint Joseph's, Wales)*

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby amz » Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 10:04

Welcome back Sir!

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 10:30

Yes, welcome back! You've not missed much.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 10:47

Great to see you back mate!

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 08 Apr 2018, 10:07

Armchair Fan wrote:And what about regions? This is Top 10 ranking of regional federations in terms of registered players in 2015 and their growth since 2011:
Madrid – 6,780 (+38.6%)
Catalunya – 5,908 (+34,5%)
Andalucía – 3,011 (+34,6%)
Valencia – 2,813 (+13,7%)
Euskadi – 1,699 (-7,4%)
Castilla y León (Valladolid) – 1,608 (+14,3%)
Galicia – 1,470 (+30,1%)
Balearic Islands – 915 (+28%)
Murcia - 885 (+117%)
Aragón – 853 (+88,7%)

I thought it would be interesting to update these figures so to highlight what I've been sometimes saying, that old traditional regions like Catalunya and Euskadi have almost stagnated (in fact they have if it weren't thanks to women's rugby) and growth is coming from other areas. These are registered players numbers from 2017:
Madrid - 8,384 (+23.7% since 2015)
Catalunya - 6,493 (+9.9%)
Andalucía - 4,162 (+38.2%)
Valencia - 3,967 (+41%)
Castilla y León (Valladolid) - 2,140 (+33%)
Euskadi - 1,934 (+13.8%)
Galicia - 1,473 (+0.2%)
Balearic Islands - 975 (+6.6%)
Murcia - 920 (+4%)
Asturias - 915 (+22%)

Total: 34,232 (+20.2%) - 29,570 men and 4,662 women

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Bogdan_DC » Sun, 08 Apr 2018, 15:45

Impressive Numbers for Spain.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby evil santa » Sun, 08 Apr 2018, 21:22

Armchair Fan wrote:
Total: 34,232 (+20.2%) - 29,570 men and 4,662 women

Thanks! Indeed interesting. And do you have separate men and women numbers for 2015?

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Gen Santa » Sun, 08 Apr 2018, 22:16

Armchair Fan wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:And what about regions? This is Top 10 ranking of regional federations in terms of registered players in 2015 and their growth since 2011:
Madrid – 6,780 (+38.6%)
Catalunya – 5,908 (+34,5%)
Andalucía – 3,011 (+34,6%)
Valencia – 2,813 (+13,7%)
Euskadi – 1,699 (-7,4%)
Castilla y León (Valladolid) – 1,608 (+14,3%)
Galicia – 1,470 (+30,1%)
Balearic Islands – 915 (+28%)
Murcia - 885 (+117%)
Aragón – 853 (+88,7%)

I thought it would be interesting to update these figures so to highlight what I've been sometimes saying, that old traditional regions like Catalunya and Euskadi have almost stagnated (in fact they have if it weren't thanks to women's rugby) and growth is coming from other areas. These are registered players numbers from 2017:
Madrid - 8,384 (+23.7% since 2015)
Catalunya - 6,493 (+9.9%)
Andalucía - 4,162 (+38.2%)
Valencia - 3,967 (+41%)
Castilla y León (Valladolid) - 2,140 (+33%)
Euskadi - 1,934 (+13.8%)
Galicia - 1,473 (+0.2%)
Balearic Islands - 975 (+6.6%)
Murcia - 920 (+4%)
Asturias - 915 (+22%)

Total: 34,232 (+20.2%) - 29,570 men and 4,662 women


this is great, maybe truly in 10 years time los leones will not be full of gabacho mercenaries... i wish the best of luck to the young spanish players...

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 08 Apr 2018, 22:24

evil santa wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:
Total: 34,232 (+20.2%) - 29,570 men and 4,662 women

Thanks! Indeed interesting. And do you have separate men and women numbers for 2015?

Sure. 25,341 and 3,138.

Gen Santa wrote:this is great, maybe truly in 10 years time los leones will not be full of gabacho mercenaries... i wish the best of luck to the young spanish players...


Two comments:
- It won't happen unless the number of Spanish-born turned pro increases. And it's not happening anytime soon in Spain, where you find foreigners with pro or semipro contracts even in third-tier leagues but Spaniards remain amateurs.
- The most probable future for Spanish national team is replacing French-born pro players with other players born outside Spain with different links to the country. You've got in U18 and U20 a number of foreign-born players. Is this more acceptable? The answer will be different depending on who you ask. Against Georgia this last REC we had Josh Peters who is an Englishman born in England and playing in England... who speaks with Andalusian accent because he spent his full youth in Marbella. In U20 Euro we've got two foreign-born hookers, Hugo Souto (half-Welsh, half-Spanish) and Tony Mammen (half-Danish, half-Tongan, grown in Spain and currently playing in England). In Sevens we've got Manuel Sainz-Trápaga who is no other than the son of Fernando Sainz-Trápaga, an Argentinian league rugby star from the eighties who moved to Madrid due to business. And I could continue giving examples. Demographics come into play. Whether we like it or not, we're a not-so-rich country where people migrate to France and UK to seek better careers and a not-so-poor country which attracts lots of migrants too.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Tobar » Sun, 08 Apr 2018, 23:59

Spain has already had some sort of semi-pro competition, remarkable considering the popularity of the sport in the country. The Liga Heineken is certainly better than what most other T2 countries have even if it’s nowhere as good as needed. With the increase of players in the country, surely there will be more Spanish born players in this league and others like Pro D2 in the next 10 years or so.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 09 Apr 2018, 08:21

I'm not that optimistic. Even though there are professional players in Liga Heineken (90% of them foreign-born), club budgets are still a long way from full professionalism. VRAC Quesos Entrepinares spends around 300,000 € in its senior first team and has a total budget of 715,000 €. To have fully professional club in Spain we fans often calculate that we would need some 1.5 M€ per club. Now think of the other 11 teams in Liga Heineken and what kind of increase in sponsorship would be needed to sustain a professionalisation process.

The cold fact is that richest clubs in Spain are often those with more amateur players paying their fees (some have over 600 players), not those better sponsored or supported by their town halls. And you can't ask parents of underage players to fund a fully pro effort. That kind of thought is only reserved to great minds like those in charge of Rugby Canada :D

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby iul » Mon, 09 Apr 2018, 08:39

Armchair Fan wrote:I'm not that optimistic. Even though there are professional players in Liga Heineken (90% of them foreign-born), club budgets are still a long way from full professionalism. VRAC Quesos Entrepinares spends around 300,000 € in its senior first team and has a total budget of 715,000 €. To have fully professional club in Spain we fans often calculate that we would need some 1.5 M€ per club. Now think of the other 11 teams in Liga Heineken and what kind of increase in sponsorship would be needed to sustain a professionalisation process.

The cold fact is that richest clubs in Spain are often those with more amateur players paying their fees (some have over 600 players), not those better sponsored or supported by their town halls. And you can't ask parents of underage players to fund a fully pro effort. That kind of thought is only reserved to great minds like those in charge of Rugby Canada :D

American clubs get fuck all crowds for their games, yet as soon as some of them announced they are going pro paying crowds started to pour in by the thousands. The same must happen in Spain as well. Some clubs must decide they want to go pro and then professionalize their administration and some players to start bringing in paying fans.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 09 Apr 2018, 08:53

Armchair Fan wrote:And you can't ask parents of underage players to fund a fully pro effort. That kind of thought is only reserved to great minds like those in charge of Rugby Canada :D


Nope that kind of thought is reserved to every single soccer club in the world beneath the full-pro-divisions :D
With the setup Spanish rugby obviously has it is an extremely small step to going pro (at least for the big clubs).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Ainsthrilln » Mon, 09 Apr 2018, 09:03

Let's be honest, even in England almost all the Aviva clubs are losing money.

In Spain, unless FC Barcelona, Real Madrid or some rich guy decides to fund a pro team in Pro14 or something similar, we will not see pro rugby.

There are lots of amateur players, but there is no money. Even the national team used to strugle to turn profitable their matches. I hage seen people complaining for having to pay 15€ to see the NT, and in previous years the profits fot the union were between 25,000€ and 50,000€ per match, I read.

If those are the revenues of the NT, what can we expect for clubs?

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 09 Apr 2018, 12:41

iul wrote:American clubs get fuck all crowds for their games, yet as soon as some of them announced they are going pro paying crowds started to pour in by the thousands. The same must happen in Spain as well. Some clubs must decide they want to go pro and then professionalize their administration and some players to start bringing in paying fans.

I hope this time USA intent to professionalise through MLR works, but so far they've only played preseason games. It's normal to see novelty attract crowds, PRO Rugby did too. Let's not forget we've already had +20,000 crowds in club games in Spain. But they were one-offs and not a sign of a sustainable professional championship.

RugbyLiebe wrote:With the setup Spanish rugby obviously has it is an extremely small step to going pro (at least for the big clubs).

Small step compared to Bundesliga, or Belgium, or Portugal... Even Georgia. But the gap compared to Russian and Romanian professional setups is still huge.

I'd say that Spanish clubs in the last four-five years haven't become richer but learnt how to spend money in a wiser way. División de Honor has always been a league very open to foreigners (hell, in this forum we've got at least a couple who tried their luck here :D ) but now they try to bring them for the long run not just to get promoted or win a league and then be relegated the following year, have established good relationships with reliable agents and agencies instead of bringing the first alleged Pumita they found on Facebook, invest more on what is around the team (training, monitoring, S&C, nutrition), intend to create a club atmosphere like you may find in Argentina although pitches are often municipally-owned... Is that enough? I don't think so, that's why I'm not so optimistic. But I won't deny the whole league is in much better shape than it was in 2010 or 2011.

Ainsthrilln wrote:There are lots of amateur players, but there is no money. Even the national team used to strugle to turn profitable their matches. I hage seen people complaining for having to pay 15€ to see the NT, and in previous years the profits fot the union were between 25,000€ and 50,000€ per match, I read.

If those are the revenues of the NT, what can we expect for clubs?

I would expect ticketing revenues having become much higher in recent times. Tonga test match gave FER 55,000€.

There are obviously some clubs who will prefer to retain their amateurism or amateur ethos, but others seem keen to bet on professionalism or pseudoprofessionalism. It's a sign of times see teams like Getxo, Hernani and Cisneros at the bottom of the table while La Vila manages to avoid relegation with 12? 15? Argentinians. Or Burgos being the big favourite to be promoted for next season. As long as they believe their effort is sustainable (La Vila already had a bad experience, but Burgos is in its third year pouring money and begins to show progress at grassroots level), it's more than welcome.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby suofficer » Mon, 09 Apr 2018, 13:14

Ainsthrilln wrote:Let's be honest, even in England almost all the Aviva clubs are losing money.



Almost all clubs in England are a vanity project. No one is making big money. Difference is marketing and of course HQ which can in theory just fund it all.

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