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Spanish rugby

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby 4N » Mon, 17 Dec 2018, 16:47

What’s the second division looking like? Who is looking at promotion?

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 17 Dec 2018, 17:15

Considering new players can still arrive, who knows. But as things stand right now the eight teams that would qualify for promotion quarterfinals are Ciencias (Sevilla), Fénix (Zaragoza), Getxo, Liceo Francés (Madrid), CRAT (A Coruña), CAU Valencia, Bathco (Santander) and CRC Pozuelo.

Getxo got relegated last season but their youngsters have grown a lot, although they lost a Zimbabwean international who fled to Sevens World Series without notice and lost to Bathco this weekend. Ciencias has added to their youngsters half a dozen Argentinians while Fénix has made a big jump this season including sponsoring from a bank apart from their usual reinforcements by French students in a private university from Zaragoza. Teams from Valencia and Barcelona seem to struggle this season and both cities have big issues with lack of facilities (Barça Rugbi has played in three different pitches this season).

My wish is clear, I'd like to see new regions represented in the top-tier, so Ciencias, Fénix or CRAT would be more than welcome.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby 4N » Mon, 17 Dec 2018, 17:25

My wish is clear, I'd like to see new regions represented in the top-tier, so Ciencias, Fénix or CRAT would be more than welcome.


:thumbup:

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 21 Dec 2018, 00:37

Midi Olympique reports Stade Toulousain has offered Joshua Peters a tryout after having scouted him in Spain v Samoa:
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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Tobar » Sun, 23 Dec 2018, 02:16

Nice, where doe he currently play? In Spain?
Last edited by Tobar on Sun, 23 Dec 2018, 19:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby beber » Sun, 23 Dec 2018, 08:15

Blackheath in english third tier

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 23 Dec 2018, 10:45

Liga Heineken - Week 13 - Live streaming
12:00 - Barça Rugbi v VRAC Quesos Entrepinares
http://api.gooru.live/v2.0/public/library/479578.html

12:00 - Aldro Independiente v Sanitas Alcobendas


12:00 - Complutense Cisneros v Hernani
http://api.gooru.live/v2.0/public/library/479810.html

12:00 - UBU-Colina Clinic v La Vila


12:00 - Ampo Ordizia v Bizkaia Gernika
http://www.rtve.es/deportes/mas-tdp/directo/

12:30 - SilverStorm El Salvador v UE Santboiana

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 23 Dec 2018, 16:49

Liga Heineken - Week 13 - Results and Standings
Barça Rugbi 21 - 34 VRAC Quesos Entrepinares (closer than it looks like, Barça was leading at HT)
Aldro Independiente 23 - 26 Sanitas Alcobendas (Alcobendas keeps up the pace but their games are like watching paint dry)
SilverStorm El Salvador 55 - 7 UE Santboiana (no show by the Catalans)
Ampo Ordizia 55 - 22 Bizkaia Gernika
UBU-Colina Clinic 48 - 15 La Vila
Complutense Cisneros 43 - 36 Hernani (both teams happy as they get points in the run to avoid relegation)

Image

No Christmas break for VRAC, as they host next week Os Belenenses for a new edition of Copa Ibérica.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 26 Dec 2018, 11:56

For those who wondered at which stage were professional league plans, some words from UBU-Colina Clinic president:
"All Liga Heineken presidents will start to work together this January to reach an agreement with FER and start the professional league next year if possible"
http://www.elcorreodeburgos.com/noticia ... 84944.html

To my understanding they are too late now, but hey, I wish them the best.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 26 Dec 2018, 13:55

Armchair Fan wrote:For those who wondered at which stage were professional league plans, some words from UBU-Colina Clinic president:
"All Liga Heineken presidents will start to work together this January to reach an agreement with FER and start the professional league next year if possible"
http://www.elcorreodeburgos.com/noticia ... 84944.html

To my understanding they are too late now, but hey, I wish them the best.


I'd be interested as to how they'd go about the professionalisation process. Will it be solely focused on the first team or will they look to find a better balance and invest in facilities and fostering depth within their clubs.

The article the quote is from mentions growing the player numbers at that particular club to 300+. Using a % of the increased funding to grow the clubs base would also go a fair way to growing its attendance. Developing fqcilities would help attract more interest and allow for the development of true professionalism in regards to HP programs as opposed to just paying players without the increased professionalism beyond that.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 26 Dec 2018, 14:04

Excellent news.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 26 Dec 2018, 16:12

Working Class Rugger wrote:I'd be interested as to how they'd go about the professionalisation process. Will it be solely focused on the first team or will they look to find a better balance and invest in facilities and fostering depth within their clubs.

The article the quote is from mentions growing the player numbers at that particular club to 300+. Using a % of the increased funding to grow the clubs base would also go a fair way to growing its attendance. Developing fqcilities would help attract more interest and allow for the development of true professionalism in regards to HP programs as opposed to just paying players without the increased professionalism beyond that.

So far it's obviously a mystery. Clubs are more focused on securing the management and explotation of any income generated by the league (so far controlled by the union) than on where will they invest anything. But let me tell you that as things are right now in Spain, increasing depth within clubs isn't an issue. I'd say most of the teams in current Liga Heineken have large underage and amateur senior teams, because in the end it's their main source of income and sustainability. VRAC spent 60% of its budget in other things than their first senior male team.

The interview is mostly about UBU-Colina Clinic from Burgos and the president explains they merged the two teams from the city in 2006, when they only had 20 kids playing and their senior team was second-to-last in regional league. They now play in Liga Heineken, have 200 kids and expect to increase to 300 in the mid term as well as already counting on 1,000 fans paying yearly tickets. His vision involves owning their own facilities and holding at least two fields and a club house.

Not all clubs think alike, for example Cisneros has 5 senior male teams, leads women's league but rejects professionalism, doesn't own anything at all (they play at Complutense university fields) and won't change its mentality any time soon. UBU-Colina Clinic is closer to VRAC, El Salvador or Alcobendas. Hard to melt so different mentalities... But they must try because they realise that having a very strong amateur scene isn't enough to make the following step.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby iul » Wed, 26 Dec 2018, 18:20

I think what's going on in America has given them a shot in the arm because it demonstrated the difference in fan interest and willingness to spend good amounts of money and tickets between amateur clubs and professional clubs. Pay players and market the club and the league as pro and all of the sudden you have people paying for tickets similar to what they'd pay at other, more established pro sports.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 27 Dec 2018, 01:56

Armchair Fan wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:I'd be interested as to how they'd go about the professionalisation process. Will it be solely focused on the first team or will they look to find a better balance and invest in facilities and fostering depth within their clubs.

The article the quote is from mentions growing the player numbers at that particular club to 300+. Using a % of the increased funding to grow the clubs base would also go a fair way to growing its attendance. Developing fqcilities would help attract more interest and allow for the development of true professionalism in regards to HP programs as opposed to just paying players without the increased professionalism beyond that.

So far it's obviously a mystery. Clubs are more focused on securing the management and explotation of any income generated by the league (so far controlled by the union) than on where will they invest anything. But let me tell you that as things are right now in Spain, increasing depth within clubs isn't an issue. I'd say most of the teams in current Liga Heineken have large underage and amateur senior teams, because in the end it's their main source of income and sustainability. VRAC spent 60% of its budget in other things than their first senior male team.

The interview is mostly about UBU-Colina Clinic from Burgos and the president explains they merged the two teams from the city in 2006, when they only had 20 kids playing and their senior team was second-to-last in regional league. They now play in Liga Heineken, have 200 kids and expect to increase to 300 in the mid term as well as already counting on 1,000 fans paying yearly tickets. His vision involves owning their own facilities and holding at least two fields and a club house.

Not all clubs think alike, for example Cisneros has 5 senior male teams, leads women's league but rejects professionalism, doesn't own anything at all (they play at Complutense university fields) and won't change its mentality any time soon. UBU-Colina Clinic is closer to VRAC, El Salvador or Alcobendas. Hard to melt so different mentalities... But they must try because they realise that having a very strong amateur scene isn't enough to make the following step.


Reading your contributions here it has been great to see the growth of the game in Spain at the participation level. And it's also great to see clubs like UBU-Colina Clinic growing and VRAC investing in their clubs from the ground up. That's doing it the right way. I just hope that it's mandated in the clubs as part of being professional requires investment in order for every club to have strong depth all the way down to U6-8s. Ideally that would involve 500+ registered players.

These efforts will go season ticket holders from 1000 to 2000 etc. and allow further investment in facilities and players which will in turn drive the progress of the professional squad further.

For clubs like Cisneros. Well, they will need it made very clear that they need to abide by the new criteria or accept that they will be relegated. In fact, a fairly strict criteria should be set to remain part of the professional tier(s) for the sake of stability and growth.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 27 Dec 2018, 03:22

A club like Cisneros will probably be against this idea of professionalism since they want to be on the top but I’m the end being in a second tier could be perfect for them. Has there ever been a case where a second tier club didn’t want to be promoted despite winning the whole league?

Also I have to say, while I love MLR I’m very jealous that you’re able to build something up through these clubs rather than creating “artificial” teams. It may not be professional yet but when it is it will be something.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 27 Dec 2018, 11:31

Tobar wrote:A club like Cisneros will probably be against this idea of professionalism since they want to be on the top but I’m the end being in a second tier could be perfect for them. Has there ever been a case where a second tier club didn’t want to be promoted despite winning the whole league?

Also I have to say, while I love MLR I’m very jealous that you’re able to build something up through these clubs rather than creating “artificial” teams. It may not be professional yet but when it is it will be something.


The MLR teams can still do something similar to this. Just over several clubs and schools as opposed to just the single club.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 27 Dec 2018, 11:38

Aren’t most of the MLR teams affiliated with existing clubs?

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 27 Dec 2018, 11:41

Working Class Rugger wrote:For clubs like Cisneros. Well, they will need it made very clear that they need to abide by the new criteria or accept that they will be relegated. In fact, a fairly strict criteria should be set to remain part of the professional tier(s) for the sake of stability and growth.


Tobar wrote:A club like Cisneros will probably be against this idea of professionalism since they want to be on the top but I’m the end being in a second tier could be perfect for them. Has there ever been a case where a second tier club didn’t want to be promoted despite winning the whole league?


I don't think Cisneros or Hernani will be roadblocks, they will just keep fighting within their own rules and ethos and if the professionalisation is successful they will fall by their own weight as we say over here. You can still be extremely healthy and not playing top tier, a few pages before you had a description by Charvis on how is Arquitectura, the most successful club in Spanish rugby, going in spite of two decades away from top tier. And there are quite a few big clubs stable in División de Honor B.

I'm more intrigued by hoy the league or club association will enforce rules on grounds (Hernani and Gernika fields are awful when it rains and they make the most out of it), improving streaming services, how the hell will they find a TV partner (let's remind currently FER and Heineken pay 300,000€ to have weekly TV coverage), how they will make sure players are paid rightfully... It isn't easy, we are drawn to think a negotiation with FER will be the major obstacle but clubs have failed so many times in the past...

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 27 Dec 2018, 12:29

Armchair Fan wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:For clubs like Cisneros. Well, they will need it made very clear that they need to abide by the new criteria or accept that they will be relegated. In fact, a fairly strict criteria should be set to remain part of the professional tier(s) for the sake of stability and growth.


Tobar wrote:A club like Cisneros will probably be against this idea of professionalism since they want to be on the top but I’m the end being in a second tier could be perfect for them. Has there ever been a case where a second tier club didn’t want to be promoted despite winning the whole league?


I don't think Cisneros or Hernani will be roadblocks, they will just keep fighting within their own rules and ethos and if the professionalisation is successful they will fall by their own weight as we say over here. You can still be extremely healthy and not playing top tier, a few pages before you had a description by Charvis on how is Arquitectura, the most successful club in Spanish rugby, going in spite of two decades away from top tier. And there are quite a few big clubs stable in División de Honor B.

I'm more intrigued by hoy the league or club association will enforce rules on grounds (Hernani and Gernika fields are awful when it rains and they make the most out of it), improving streaming services, how the hell will they find a TV partner (let's remind currently FER and Heineken pay 300,000€ to have weekly TV coverage), how they will make sure players are paid rightfully... It isn't easy, we are drawn to think a negotiation with FER will be the major obstacle but clubs have failed so many times in the past...


I'm not saying they cannot have a strong club that can be successful in the DoH B. Just that there needs to be standards implemented in order to ensure a base level of professionalism is in place. Regarding participation. It should be the goal of every club in the country to grow their participation bases regardless of level.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 27 Dec 2018, 12:39

thatrugbyguy wrote:Aren’t most of the MLR teams affiliated with existing clubs?


No. Glendale, Seattle, Houston initially weren't but now are, New Orleans all are. Utah, San Diego, Austin, New York and Toronto aren't. Utah, New York and Toronto are connected to there local scenes but no individual clubs while there's been plenty of mention of there being a disconnect between Austin and their local scene. Though I don't know how legitimate that is.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 27 Dec 2018, 14:24

Armchair Fan wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:For clubs like Cisneros. Well, they will need it made very clear that they need to abide by the new criteria or accept that they will be relegated. In fact, a fairly strict criteria should be set to remain part of the professional tier(s) for the sake of stability and growth.


Tobar wrote:A club like Cisneros will probably be against this idea of professionalism since they want to be on the top but I’m the end being in a second tier could be perfect for them. Has there ever been a case where a second tier club didn’t want to be promoted despite winning the whole league?


I don't think Cisneros or Hernani will be roadblocks, they will just keep fighting within their own rules and ethos and if the professionalisation is successful they will fall by their own weight as we say over here. You can still be extremely healthy and not playing top tier, a few pages before you had a description by Charvis on how is Arquitectura, the most successful club in Spanish rugby, going in spite of two decades away from top tier. And there are quite a few big clubs stable in División de Honor B.

I'm more intrigued by hoy the league or club association will enforce rules on grounds (Hernani and Gernika fields are awful when it rains and they make the most out of it), improving streaming services, how the hell will they find a TV partner (let's remind currently FER and Heineken pay 300,000€ to have weekly TV coverage), how they will make sure players are paid rightfully... It isn't easy, we are drawn to think a negotiation with FER will be the major obstacle but clubs have failed so many times in the past...


300,000€ a week? They’re getting ripped off. Imagine how much they could pay their players and get better facilities if they diverted those funds and chose to show their games on a service like YouTube Live for free. I get it that Heineken wants them on TV for sponsor reasons but surely this is better use of funds.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 27 Dec 2018, 14:56

No, 300,000€ the full season. I say they get coverage of one weekly game. All national level games are streamed, it's in league regulations and clubs must provide a TV signal. But TV is key to find new fans and give sponsors nationwide visibility. The least viewed game on TV reaches 20,000 people, the best seen game on YouTube gets 7,000.

300,000€ are a year of Sevens grants, so you can draw comparisons.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 27 Dec 2018, 16:34

Ah that makes much more sense then. I read that too fast and thought that said each week.


Working Class Rugger wrote:
Tobar wrote:A club like Cisneros will probably be against this idea of professionalism since they want to be on the top but I’m the end being in a second tier could be perfect for them. Has there ever been a case where a second tier club didn’t want to be promoted despite winning the whole league?

Also I have to say, while I love MLR I’m very jealous that you’re able to build something up through these clubs rather than creating “artificial” teams. It may not be professional yet but when it is it will be something.


The MLR teams can still do something similar to this. Just over several clubs and schools as opposed to just the single club.


Yeah they could but so far this has not existed in professional sports in the US, even in MLS. They would rather create academies and have more control over the players than leave them up to different clubs. The rest support local teams more for a publicity stunt.

So far, most of the teams are giving me hope that this will stay the course. I would love to have the experience where it’s the norm rather than the exception to have a team made up of local players. You always hear of 1 or 2 players being a “hometown kid” and it’s a nice story. But to have 15-20 players be the hometown kid who came up through the local MLR club setup would be something special.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Grzegorz B. » Fri, 28 Dec 2018, 07:28

Tobar wrote:Has there ever been a case where a second tier club didn’t want to be promoted despite winning the whole league?


In Poland - even this year...
Grzegorz B.

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Re: Spanish rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 02 Jan 2019, 17:15

Clubs association logo, disclosed in NYE
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