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OLD STUFF - rarities

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Wed, 27 Jul 2016, 05:46

UNDER CURRENT LAWS, they could be as low as 3.40 metres, ie extending over crossbar by just 40 cm

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Vova12 » Sat, 30 Jul 2016, 07:23

I bought a game jersey "Moscow magicians' tour of England 1990.

Rugby 13.


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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sat, 30 Jul 2016, 19:06

Back cover of new GEO Lawbook

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showing publication's heritage
and listing some mile-stones

Notably:

* First laws were framed in 1845 at Rugby school (ENG)

* The game became 15-a-side in 1877

* In internationals points were introduced in 1890

* Before 1958 the ball should be played by foot after tackle

* Substitution was allowed in 1968

* In 1992 try's value was increased to present 5 points

* Modern *tackle law* - thru gate - came into effect in 2000

* The Laws were translated from RUS and printed just once, in 1966

* ENG sources were translated twice - in 1990 (old) and 2000 (new),
and had been printed 5 times (1992 1995 2002 2006 2011) until now

@

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Tue, 16 Aug 2016, 08:09

A curious image [#6] with a sort of goalkeeper trying to avoid a try on the net
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rugby_pio ... otostream/

The legend however says that it's not a rare, mysterious link between soccer and rugby but just a fanciful view of the illustrator..

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby grande » Tue, 16 Aug 2016, 13:04

That made me question something Canalina... At the time of the "split" between association football and rugby football, has there always been the difference of "through the goal" vs "over the crossbar" scoring? Did a rugby or pre-rugby version of the game have a net? Did an early version of soccer involve kicking the ball over the crossbar?

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Tue, 16 Aug 2016, 15:37

In the past days I read that the first net on a football door appeared just on 1892 (if I remember correctly), so rugby must have never used one of them

I can't answer to the second question, I have always read just about rugby history ignoring how "association football" evolved

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 16 Aug 2016, 19:00

grande wrote:That made me question something Canalina... At the time of the "split" between association football and rugby football, has there always been the difference of "through the goal" vs "over the crossbar" scoring? Did a rugby or pre-rugby version of the game have a net? Did an early version of soccer involve kicking the ball over the crossbar?



Football didn't always have a cross bar it had a tape, a cross bar was made compulsory in the 1882. Link here: http://www.victorianfootball.co.uk/the-evolution-of-the-crossbar/

As the games were initially codified and moved apart little differences grew to be bigger ones. Aussie rules evolved from a similar back ground and has no crossbar at all for instance.

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Wed, 17 Aug 2016, 06:52

Image

REMEMBER those tane (yellow) balls, produced in Poland thru 1970s & 1980s?

Their case consisted of six (6) panels, not four!

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Tintifax » Sun, 28 Aug 2016, 20:01

Austria (Southern A. = Carinthia) 1995-1996. Press Collection from the "Villach Harlekins".

In the first press-cu red article says the journalist "over 25 teams that should have played after the 2nd WW in the British occupation zone Rugby" . I can not imagine that.

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 29 Aug 2016, 07:04

@Tintifax
As there where 55.000 British soldiers stationed in Austria after WWII (according to https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besetztes ... 6sterreich ) and even 1954 still 15.000 soldiers, 25 teams in Corinthia doesn't sound too unrealistic.

Even more interesting: what happened to this club?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Tintifax » Mon, 29 Aug 2016, 08:26

RugbyLiebe wrote:@Tintifax
As there where 55.000 British soldiers stationed in Austria after WWII (according to https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besetztes ... 6sterreich ) and even 1954 still 15.000 soldiers, 25 teams in Corinthia doesn't sound too unrealistic.

Even more interesting: what happened to this club?


1. This number means the whole stationed british Soldiers in Austria. Also Upper Austria, Styria. 25 Clubs without leaving a trace? Nearly impossible. But ok more important is indeed...

2. ... the fate of the Harlekins. In Rugby -terms: Too less continuity & support. Like many other small Clubs in T2-Nations, depended the Club´s welfare on the shoulders´s of 1-2 guys. The chairman & organizator closed his Pub in 1997 & moved back to England [?]. Later he returned to Carinthia- but Klagenfurt & meanwhile the Harlekins were liquidated. I try to explore some of the lads, maybe they have children and/or interested in Club-organization.

Btw. the level of Austrian Clubs is rising, but not the number of Volunteers behind the scenes. Every Club in Austria (except Donau & maybe Stade) can pass the same. Always and every time.
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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 29 Aug 2016, 08:52

Tintifax wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:@Tintifax
As there where 55.000 British soldiers stationed in Austria after WWII (according to https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besetztes ... 6sterreich ) and even 1954 still 15.000 soldiers, 25 teams in Corinthia doesn't sound too unrealistic.

Even more interesting: what happened to this club?


1. This number means the whole stationed british Soldiers in Austria. Also Upper Austria, Styria. 25 Clubs without leaving a trace? Nearly impossible. But ok more important is indeed...

2. ... the fate of the Harlekins. In Rugby -terms: Too less continuity & support. Like many other small Clubs in T2-Nations, depended the Club´s welfare on the shoulders´s of 1-2 guys. The chairman & organizator closed his Pub in 1997 & moved back to England [?]. Later he returned to Carinthia- but Klagenfurt & meanwhile the Harlekins were liquidated. I try to explore some of the lads, maybe they have children and/or interested in Club-organization.

Btw. the level of Austrian Clubs is rising, but not the number of Volunteers behind the scenes. Every Club in Austria (except Donau & maybe Stade) can pass the same. Always and every time.


2. That's the same old story everywhere, also here in Bavaria (but at least slowly the clubs become bigger and have more shoulders). I think the key is youth development. No growing youth system and the club won't last longer than 5 years.

1. This also happened in Bavaria. There was even an US-Army-league with 10+ teams. Vanished without a trace but two clubs (basically the last Army stations in Bavaria). And those were Yanks not Brits. Rugby is still big in the British army, so even if just 3000 soldiers were in Kärtnen and just 1000 would be rugby players, that would still make 30 possible teams (even more if you consider, that at that time your weren't allowed to substitute at all, so you just needed a maximum of 15 players per game). It's not that those soldiers had a lot different things to do in the 50ies.

Has any British citizen an idea how much rugby was played in the army in that time and if locals were involved? Really interesting imho.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Mon, 29 Aug 2016, 09:34

25 clubs appear way too much to me too. Maybe they were soccer clubs, occasionally playing rugby.
Allied troops stayed a lot also in Italy, overall in the south (1943-46) but I never heard about rugby championships nor about clubs formed by them. Anyway it could be just my ignorance
During the years I read spared news about matches of soccer played informally between allied troops and italian troops or italian partizans but I never heard something similar concerning rugby

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Ser Podrick of Payne » Tue, 30 Aug 2016, 13:02

Just unearthed, buried from a mass of old papers, a match programme ( and the ticket) for a one off match "Four Home Unions" v Rest of Europe, April 22nd 1990 at Twickenham. I wonder how many are left for posterity? I can't put pics up though.

This was a match to raise funds for Romania and Romanian Rugby following the overthrow of Ceausescu. It has a nice if sad article by Chris Thau about the effects of the revolution on Romanian rugby and another about the plight of orphans.

The Rest of Europe is mostly France of course but here is the line up

15 M Toader
14 M Dancler
13 G Danglade
12 N Fulina
11 P Lagisquet
10 B Capitani
9 A Hueber

1 M Pujolle
2 P Dintrans
3 G Rossi
4 M Cecillion
5 S Ciorascu
6 T Janaczek
7 H Dumitras
8 A Tichonov

16 L Armary
17 P Capdevielle
18 K Tapper
19 F Torossian
20 F Gaetaniello
21 I Mironov
22 J Moreno

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Vova12 » Tue, 30 Aug 2016, 17:23

Ser Podrick of Payne wrote:Just unearthed, buried from a mass of old papers, a match programme ( and the ticket) for a one off match "Four Home Unions" v Rest of Europe, April 22nd 1990 at Twickenham. I wonder how many are left for posterity? I can't put pics up though.

This was a match to raise funds for Romania and Romanian Rugby following the overthrow of Ceausescu. It has a nice if sad article by Chris Thau about the effects of the revolution on Romanian rugby and another about the plight of orphans.

The Rest of Europe is mostly France of course but here is the line up


This program is printed in large numbers.

In the game played by two players from the Soviet Union - Mironov and Tikhonov.

I too have this program.

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Vova12 » Tue, 30 Aug 2016, 17:29

I read a book "Passovotchka: Moscow Dynamo in Britain" by David Downing.

In this book is written that rugby has appeared in Russia earlier than football!

Very interesting book. I recommend!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Passovotchka-M ... 0747548137

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Tue, 30 Aug 2016, 17:47

It was called Skilball Trophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Skilball_Trophy

There were two italian players too
I can't find any google occurrence about "Skilball"; maybe it was the name of a now no more existing sponsor

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Ser Podrick of Payne » Tue, 30 Aug 2016, 20:29

Vova12 wrote:
I too have this program.


So, there is this unexpected link between us!

Canalina wrote:It was called Skilball Trophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Skilball_Trophy

I can't find any google occurrence about "Skilball"; maybe it was the name of a now no more existing sponsor


Skilball was apparently a competition that was going to "sweep the nation". Clearly it didn't take off!

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Wed, 31 Aug 2016, 06:48

Casually found an australian newspapers search engine (http://trove.nla.gov.au), I obviously tried to see when rugby as a game appeared for the first time

1831, a very indirect reference on Sydney Gazette and New South Wales Advertiser: "Only five were living at the death of the parents in 1797; namely, the two sons we have already mentioned, the subject of this memoir, and two daughters; the younger married to the Rev.Dr. Bloxam of Rugby school, and the other to Mr.Meredith, an attorney of Birmingham". Bloxam was the surname of the former rugby student that "launched" the legend of William Webb Ellis, some decades after 1823; he was the only known indirect witness of Ellis' run and this mentioned Bloxam could be his grandfather or his father

1857, Mount Alexander Mail: "The young Englishman, who begins his education in self-reliance and fair play, through the trying ordeal of football at Eton or Rugby"…

1857, october, various articles about "Tom Brown's school days", a successful book where also a football match in Rugby is described

1859, a réclame on The Argus: "SATURDAY, JULY 30. To Football Clubs, Public Schools, Academies, Toy Dealers, and Others. 1 Case very Superior Footballs. A G. M'COMBE will SELL by AUCTION, in his rooms, Collins-street, on Saturday, July 30, at eleven o'clock. Ex Brierley Hill, R K H, in diamond, 1 case containing… 2} dozen best large footballs, leather cases and indiarubbers 2} dozen best large extra cases for do. The above shipment of very superior footballs were manufactured to order by Gllbert, of Rugby, who is acknowledged to be tho best manufacturer In England. Terms and further particulars at sale. Samples Now on Sale".

1860, The Argus: "Any fear that football under the Melbourne rules had deteriorated into an effeminate game would have been effectually dispelled in the mind of the veriest stickler for Eton "bullies", Rugby "rouges" or Winchester "hots" had he paid a visit to the Richmond Paddock on Saturday afternoon last. The occasion was the third match this season between the Melbourne and Richmond Football Clubs. About two dozen of tbe best players in and about Melbourne were ranged pretty equally on one side or the other"…

1860, again The Argus, an advertising: "A Synopsis of all the Sydney Matches. Football. During the last season, with hints, together with Victorian, Eton, and Rugby rules. Prospective Visit of the All England Eleven, And other matters or Interest to lovers of out-door sports. SANDS, KENNY, and Co., publishers, Collins Street, Melbourne, and all booksellers".

1861, The Mercury (of Hobart, Tasmania): "The play of the school "football" has in no way degenerated, as has been evinced in the Sixth and Old Rugbeian matches. The former of these, in which the Sixth conquered their opponents, was played on the 6th of October; the latter, in which the school were victorious, on the 1st of November. Tho two best houses this year wero Evans and Mayors; they accordingly played against the school on Saturday, December 15, but victory declared with neither side. In consequence of the representations of certain influential Old Rugbeians various alterations and additions have been made in the laws of football, by a levée of Big Side, especially in those relating to "taking up "and "touch".

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Hernan14 » Thu, 01 Sep 2016, 01:15

Canalina wrote:I can't find any google occurrence about "Skilball"; maybe it was the name of a now no more existing sponsor


Was a failed online lottery game

https://www.questia.com/magazine/1G1-10 ... es-top-man

See the logo of the programme ;)

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 01 Sep 2016, 07:28

Hernan14 wrote:
Canalina wrote:I can't find any google occurrence about "Skilball"; maybe it was the name of a now no more existing sponsor


Was a failed online lottery game

https://www.questia.com/magazine/1G1-10 ... es-top-man

See the logo of the programme ;)


Only this failed lottery had probably no influence to what Canalina found, as according to your link, it was set up over 100 years later. :roll:
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Thu, 01 Sep 2016, 08:25

...
1860, again The Argus, an advertising: "A Synopsis of all the Sydney Matches. Football. During the last season, with hints, together with Victorian, Eton, and Rugby rules. Prospective Visit of the All England Eleven, And other matters or Interest to lovers of out-door sports. SANDS, KENNY, and Co., publishers, Collins Street, Melbourne, and all booksellers".
…[/i].

I think to have understood that that "victorian" is not referred to queen Victoria and her age but to the australian city named after her. So, I think it could be:
Victorian rules=aussie football
Eton rules=soccer football
Rugby rules=rugby football

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby YamahaKiwi » Thu, 01 Sep 2016, 11:01

RugbyLiebe wrote:2. ... the fate of the Harlekins. In Rugby -terms: Too less continuity & support. Like many other small Clubs in T2-Nations, depended the Club´s welfare on the shoulders´s of 1-2 guys. The chairman & organizator closed his Pub in 1997 & moved back to England [?]. Later he returned to Carinthia- but Klagenfurt & meanwhile the Harlekins were liquidated. I try to explore some of the lads, maybe they have children and/or interested in Club-organization.

Btw. the level of Austrian Clubs is rising, but not the number of Volunteers behind the scenes. Every Club in Austria (except Donau & maybe Stade) can pass the same. Always and every time.


2. That's the same old story everywhere, also here in Bavaria (but at least slowly the clubs become bigger and have more shoulders). I think the key is youth development. No growing youth system and the club won't last longer than 5 years.[/quote]

Yes probably was just intra-army games so most Austrians weren't exposed to the sport.

Yes, the first time I was living in Shizuoka, Japan in the late 90s there were supposedly 25 clubs in the prefecture, now there's about 4-5. Most folded because they were just one team clubs that had absolutely no development or juniors policy. Even at the time they existed many could hardly put a full XV on the paddock and it was very common to see teams with 2 reserves etc. I regarded them as extremely selfish as they only cared about themselves and not about giving anything back to the sport.

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 01 Sep 2016, 16:14

Canalina wrote:
...
1860, again The Argus, an advertising: "A Synopsis of all the Sydney Matches. Football. During the last season, with hints, together with Victorian, Eton, and Rugby rules. Prospective Visit of the All England Eleven, And other matters or Interest to lovers of out-door sports. SANDS, KENNY, and Co., publishers, Collins Street, Melbourne, and all booksellers".
…[/i].

I think to have understood that that "victorian" is not referred to queen Victoria and her age but to the australian city named after her. So, I think it could be:
Victorian rules=aussie football
Eton rules=soccer football
Rugby rules=rugby football


Soccer rules were a mixture of two sets known as Sheffield rules and cambridge rules. Eton rules were this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eton_field_game

You are correct that Victorian rules will, in almost all cases, refer to the place not the time period.

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Thu, 01 Sep 2016, 17:06

Thank you Sk

There's a nice 1959 video on youtube, it was a curious game



"and it will be played in the next centuries!". Maybe not : )
The fact that the Eton rules had been documented in 1815 throws a shadow on the originality of William Webb Ellis "invention". If this way to play football with scrums and touchdown was the same of 1815, the rugby rules cannot be seen so much revolutionary as we think

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