Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

OLD STUFF - rarities

User avatar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 05:56
Location: Zemo Vera, Tbilissi, GEORGIA

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Thu, 01 Sep 2016, 17:09

Victorian rules = local football code played in southern state of Victoria (Melbourne)

Victorian Football League (VFL) later (some 25 years ago) evolved into AFL by spreading all over Australia

Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 01 Sep 2016, 17:34

Canalina wrote:Thank you Sk

There's a nice 1959 video on youtube, it was a curious game



"and it will be played in the next centuries!". Maybe not : )
The fact that the Eton rules had been documented in 1815 throws a shadow on the originality of William Webb Ellis "invention". If this way to play football with scrums and touchdown was the same of 1815, the rugby rules cannot be seen so much revolutionary as we think



William Webb Ellis is a total myth, there is no evidence of him playing football at Rugby nor of him inventing the rules; he was only popularised by ex-public school boys at the RFU in 1895 to show they were the true ruggers and the Welsh, North, Midlands clubs that took gates had manual laborers playing for them and wanted to pay them were not. Rugby evolved from folk football games that were common all over England (and to be fair I imagine UK and indeed the World), Ashbourne shrovetide football and Hallaton bottle kicking are both basically massive mauls/scrums with a bit of dribbling, just as rugby was in the mid 19th century.

Eton still play the game at their school, so to be fair it is played in the next century from that video!

User avatar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 05:56
Location: Zemo Vera, Tbilissi, GEORGIA

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Fri, 02 Sep 2016, 06:03

Totally agree, and it is a harmful myth ... to rugby itself

Unfortunately, WR still thinks other way and does NOT abandon it for good

To me rugby is a direct descendant of Folk football
retaining its original feature - wrestling for the ball

whilst other codes - soccer, afl, gaelic etc etc deviated from it

Furthermore, rugby have heavily influenced early
ice hockey, basketball and handball rules

@

Posts: 1408
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 02 Sep 2016, 07:56

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:Totally agree, and it is a harmful myth ... to rugby itself

Unfortunately, WR still thinks other way and does NOT abandon it for good

To me rugby is a direct descendant of Folk football
retaining its original feature - wrestling for the ball

whilst other codes - soccer, afl, gaelic etc etc deviated from it

Furthermore, rugby have heavily influenced early
ice hockey, basketball and handball rules

@


Exactly this. It actually leads to people thinking, that association football is the original code in many countries. In Germany i.e. there is not even an understanding that football has different codes. There is just one and that's soccer (Fußball). All the others can not even be called football, it has to be, that soccer was there first (which is very wrong).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

User avatar
Posts: 2722
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Fri, 02 Sep 2016, 08:54

As I said in the past, I'm not incline to think that it's a complete myth. Maybe there's much fantasy in it, but I think that a part of truth there must be. Maybe a little little part. If, being old, I had to create a myth about the birth of something happened decades ago, I would involve myself or a friend of mine, not a person almost totally unknown to me like Ellis was for Bloxam. So I think, at least. But they are just feelings, we'll never know the truth
Italian rugby news blog: http://www.rugby.it/news/

Posts: 1408
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 02 Sep 2016, 11:37

Canalina wrote:As I said in the past, I'm not incline to think that it's a complete myth. Maybe there's much fantasy in it, but I think that a part of truth there must be. Maybe a little little part. If, being old, I had to create a myth about the birth of something happened decades ago, I would involve myself or a friend of mine, not a person almost totally unknown to me like Ellis was for Bloxam. So I think, at least. But they are just feelings, we'll never know the truth


Well there was a Webb Ellis at Rugby school. Maybe he never kicked the ball at all. The problem is that the legend is used nowadays by soccer fans to justify that they are the only football code and theirs is the original one. A twist the Webb-Ellis-legend-creators never even thought about.
And it is even more strange, that is definitely the case, that all former games allowed to take the ball with the hand.
Or another idea, maybe he just created the try-idea. I mean it was just that at the beginning. Place the ball behind the line and get to try to kick for goal.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 213
Joined: Tue, 12 Apr 2016, 14:19
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby sammo » Fri, 02 Sep 2016, 14:49

sk 88 wrote:
Canalina wrote:Thank you Sk

There's a nice 1959 video on youtube, it was a curious game



"and it will be played in the next centuries!". Maybe not : )
The fact that the Eton rules had been documented in 1815 throws a shadow on the originality of William Webb Ellis "invention". If this way to play football with scrums and touchdown was the same of 1815, the rugby rules cannot be seen so much revolutionary as we think



William Webb Ellis is a total myth, there is no evidence of him playing football at Rugby nor of him inventing the rules; he was only popularised by ex-public school boys at the RFU in 1895 to show they were the true ruggers and the Welsh, North, Midlands clubs that took gates had manual laborers playing for them and wanted to pay them were not. Rugby evolved from folk football games that were common all over England (and to be fair I imagine UK and indeed the World), Ashbourne shrovetide football and Hallaton bottle kicking are both basically massive mauls/scrums with a bit of dribbling, just as rugby was in the mid 19th century.


I grew up in Ashbourne and Royal Shrovetide Football is an incredible and well loved tradition, give it a search on YouTube if you haven't heard about/seen it before!

Posts: 486
Joined: Sat, 19 Apr 2014, 08:13
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby paratus » Sat, 03 Sep 2016, 12:54

We have a similar game in our village https://chiddingstonerealfootball.co.uk/ - more like Lelo ball I think....

User avatar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 05:56
Location: Zemo Vera, Tbilissi, GEORGIA

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sat, 24 Sep 2016, 15:59

Some NOTABLE stuff from my COLLECTION

Image Image Image

Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 24 Sep 2016, 16:39

I've been in touch on twitter with the World Rugby Museum blog on the anglo-centric nature of it, particularly the fact its only allied soldiers from World War One being commemorated on the blog. He/they have responded saying if anyone has any information they would love to publish it as they agree but can't find enough to publish.

If anyone has anything, particularly if you have an article written in your mother tongue and want help editing the English version please drop me a PM!

User avatar
Posts: 2722
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Sat, 24 Sep 2016, 21:18

The second image of Flidta Risxva's post reminds me a matrioska I had when I was a kid. It would be nice to create an oval wooden "rugby matrioska", with a modern rugby ball at the exterior, an 80s rugby ball as second oval, then a 50s rugby ball and so on till the last little oval representing one of the first rugby ball made by Gilbert with a pig's bladder. The history of rugby balls in just one craftwork piece. It wouldn't be a world success but maybe it would sell three or four pieces in this forum : )

Maybe not all knows it: a matrioska is a series of wooden dolls of various bigness, the biggest one containing all the others and the smallest one contained by all the others http://www.eticamente.net/wp-content/up ... iochka.jpg
Italian rugby news blog: http://www.rugby.it/news/

User avatar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 05:56
Location: Zemo Vera, Tbilissi, GEORGIA

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Mon, 03 Oct 2016, 09:37

ANOTHER batch from my COLLECTION

Image Image Image

Posts: 67
Joined: Mon, 10 Nov 2014, 06:54
National Flag:
ArgentinaArgentina

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Hernan14 » Wed, 05 Oct 2016, 00:17

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Hernan14 wrote:
Canalina wrote:I can't find any google occurrence about "Skilball"; maybe it was the name of a now no more existing sponsor


Was a failed online lottery game

https://www.questia.com/magazine/1G1-10 ... es-top-man

See the logo of the programme ;)


Only this failed lottery had probably no influence to what Canalina found, as according to your link, it was set up over 100 years later. :roll:


My English is not very good, but your math seems that either...Canalina put the link of the "The Skilball Trophy" played the 22nd April of 1990...and the Skilball online lottery was launched in may of the same year, 1990 :roll:

"Golden Grid had planned to go ahead with a second on-line game - which uses computers to administer games like prize draws, unlike instant lottery scratchcards - after the failure of Skilball, launched last May. But a March 1991 launch in the North-west was pulled at the final hour." ;)

Posts: 1408
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 05 Oct 2016, 07:03

Hernan14 wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Hernan14 wrote:
Canalina wrote:I can't find any google occurrence about "Skilball"; maybe it was the name of a now no more existing sponsor


Was a failed online lottery game

https://www.questia.com/magazine/1G1-10 ... es-top-man

See the logo of the programme ;)


Only this failed lottery had probably no influence to what Canalina found, as according to your link, it was set up over 100 years later. :roll:


My English is not very good, but your math seems that either...Canalina put the link of the "The Skilball Trophy" played the 22nd April of 1990...and the Skilball online lottery was launched in may of the same year, 1990 :roll:

"Golden Grid had planned to go ahead with a second on-line game - which uses computers to administer games like prize draws, unlike instant lottery scratchcards - after the failure of Skilball, launched last May. But a March 1991 launch in the North-west was pulled at the final hour." ;)


:D lol, apparently my math is a bit rusty. I reckon I made a wrong connection with the newspaper search engine and there actually was another "skillball"-thing in operation in Melbourne long before the 1990s one.
But you are 100% right. My bad
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

User avatar
Posts: 2722
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Fri, 14 Oct 2016, 09:45

I liked a lot this image found, as always, by Rugby Pioneers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rugby_pio ... 0137374506

It's from St.Lucia, end of XIX century or very first years of the XX (before 1903, the uploader supposes).
If you click on the photo you zoom on it. How tall is that bar? Seven meters? And I always appreciate those women's white, simple and elegant dresses, with the umbrellas to shield the sun
Italian rugby news blog: http://www.rugby.it/news/

User avatar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 05:56
Location: Zemo Vera, Tbilissi, GEORGIA

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 08:24

*The King* Wally Lewis (QRL) was officially elevated to a legend status on THU

Image

I've tried to purchase that kind of old football but all in vain - could NOT find in net

User avatar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 05:56
Location: Zemo Vera, Tbilissi, GEORGIA

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Thu, 20 Oct 2016, 06:34

MODERN LELO in 1940-1950s

Image

Posts: 1408
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 20 Oct 2016, 07:50

I love how everybody seems to have a lot of fun in this picture. Is it a modern variety of Lelo or rugby of some kind? If so: How was the modern variety played? Goals as village gates?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

User avatar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 05:56
Location: Zemo Vera, Tbilissi, GEORGIA

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Thu, 20 Oct 2016, 08:19

On rugby field, currently 12-a-side,

with MINI variation 6-a-side, across the field, on half of the pitch

User avatar
Posts: 2722
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Thu, 20 Oct 2016, 19:08

Exploring the excellent site www.delcampe.net , a sort of french ebay, I found a 1938 brochure of an hungarian balls seller, involving also rugby balls https://images-03.delcampe-static.net/i ... 84_004.jpg
So there was rugby in Hungary in 1938? I asked to myself and of course I ran to read wikipedia. First surprise, rugby existed occasionally in Hungary at the end of XIX century and in the first half of the XX, but the real father of rugby in the country has been in the '60s-'70s an italian ( :geek: :thumbup: ), the diplomat Carlo Passalacqua which in 1969 imported rugby in Budapest and contributed to the birth of the first teams. After a quick blooming, just three clubs survived in 1972 at the Passalacqua's departure from the country.
The second surprise is that in 1935 a rugby competition was played at the World University Games held in Budapest. So, again thanks to wikipedia, I discovered that there was this sort of 'grandpa' of the Universiade, called World University Games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universiade
Before the WWII there were six editions of these Games, and from the second to the sixth edition (1930-39) rugby was part of the program. But wikipedia has almost no details about the results; the tournament in Budapest in 1935 was won by France with a 12-10 success in the final against Germany and it's all. The other editions involving rugby were hosted in Darmstadt, Turin, Paris and Wien
Italian rugby news blog: http://www.rugby.it/news/

User avatar
Posts: 2722
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Thu, 20 Oct 2016, 19:41

Ok, found in the archive of a Turin's newspaper the results of the 1933 University World Games, hosted by Turin under the fascism. The stadium was of course called "Benito Mussolini" and the italian players were in a black jersey, the color of fascism.
Four nations competing: France, Spain, Italy, Czechoslovakia.

Saturday, 2 september: Italy v Spain 6-0 (two tries), France v Czechoslovakia 69-0 (19 tries, six conversions)
Monday, 4 sept: Italy v Czechoslovakia 46-0, France v Spain 32-3
Wednesday, 6 sept: Spain v Czechoslovakia 15-3
Saturday, 9 sept: Italy v France 0-41 ? (apparently eleven tries and four conversions)

1 France
2 Italy
3 Spain
4 Czechoslovakia
Italian rugby news blog: http://www.rugby.it/news/

User avatar
Posts: 1149
Joined: Wed, 22 Jul 2015, 18:20
Location: Moscow
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Vova12 » Thu, 20 Oct 2016, 21:07

I bought it !!!!!! :D

Image
Image

User avatar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 05:56
Location: Zemo Vera, Tbilissi, GEORGIA

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Fri, 21 Oct 2016, 06:56

:!: BE ASSURED, I have read all latest posts and ARCHIVED them :!:

Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 21 Oct 2016, 19:06

http://www.rugby.se/Forbundet/HistorikStatistik/Verksamhetsberattelser/

Annual reports for Swedish union going back to 1930s. If you can read Swedish there might be some gems in there?

User avatar
Posts: 2722
Joined: Sun, 27 Apr 2014, 11:50
National Flag:
ItalyItaly

Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Postby Canalina » Mon, 31 Oct 2016, 06:56

Two photos from collectibles website Delcampe (click on the photos to zoom)

1955 circa, the romanian stadium "23 august" during a rugby match https://www.delcampe.net/it/collezionis ... 57790.html
Great crowd and wonderful stadium. Maybe is it 1957, the match lost in may against France?

1929, a diving pass in Paris https://www.delcampe.net/it/collezionis ... 20403.html
I'm not sure but I'have the feeling that these diving passes, so spectacular and a sort of essence of rugby when I started to play, are disappearing. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that nowadays almost all the scrum-halves pass standing on their feet
Italian rugby news blog: http://www.rugby.it/news/

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot] and 7 guests