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OLD STUFF - rarities

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby Canalina » Tue, 31 Mar 2020, 06:40

Tintifax wrote:- Rugby is more demanding than Association- you must use also your hands & arms not only your legs.

It's interesting that according to this line the distinction between rugby and soccer would be just that in the latter you must use only the legs and in the first you may use all the limbs.
In some of the oldest rugby footages, indeed, there's a lot of use of the feet, included some foot dribbling. I don't remember how the ball was in those times, probably it was more rounded than today.
It would be interesting to see how a modern rugby game would be conducted if played with a perfectly round ball: many foot dribbling? When you touch the ball with the foot the opponent can't tackle you with the arms, so maybe the soccer skills would be important in rugby too

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 31 Mar 2020, 14:23

More dribbling was caused by Tackle Law -- nobody could handle the ball until it was played with foot

This restriction was abolished in 1958

iRB Centenary Book (1986) regards that change as a starting point of modern rugby

:::

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 31 Mar 2020, 15:47

BALL measurements from SOVIET| GEORGIAN Lawbooks
(( they obviously followed INTERNATIONAL sources ))
+ OXFORD COMPANION
Code: Select all
Year          LENGTH      CIRCUMFERENCEs    WEIGHT

1938          275-285   760-790   630-640   375-425
1948          270-290   760-790   630-640   375-425

1975 OXFORD   279-286   762-787   601-648   383-425
1977          280-290   760-790   600-650   375-425

1981          280-300   760-790   580-620   400-440
1994          280-300   760-790   580-620   400-440

2003 JUNE     280-300   740-770   580-620   410-460
2018          280-300   740-770   580-620   410-460


Hence, some time between 1977-1981
BALL was made a bit
longer but slimmer | leaner (keeping same end-to-end circumference)
and heavier

In JUNE 2003 it was 'magically' transformed by reducing end-to-end circumference
whilst keeping length and in-width circumference intact, and once again made heavier

BUT could those alterations change the GAME essentially?

:::

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby Canalina » Tue, 31 Mar 2020, 18:39

Interesting as always, thank you

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby victorsra » Thu, 02 Apr 2020, 20:02

Oldest video of a rugby match in Brazil: https://www.instagram.com/p/B-fTduqAqGp/

It is the 1928 Beilby Alston Cup, the anual match between the representative sides of São Paulo (white and black) and Rio de Janeiro (colours, probably yellow and green) played between 1927 and 1963 as the main competition in the country (and some years after that, but not anymore with the same status). Champions: http://www.portaldorugby.com.br/noticia ... lby-alston

The 1928 Rio side was basicaly a British expats team, but the São Paulo team had already a couple of non-British names: Haddad (a Syrian/Lebanese name, as the Christian Arab colony was large), Bastin (French), Espindola and Queiroz (Brazilian/Portuguese names). Hollnagel is maybe a German name? German colony was big too.

São Paulo's 1928 squad:

Fullback: C. E. Ferris (CAP)
3/4s: G. Wimot (AAP), L. P. Caley (AAP), Sydney Smith (CAP). P. Haddad (AAP)
Halves: A. Bennett (CAP), L. A. Gwinner (AAP)
Forwards: L. Haynes (AAP), J. B. Wright (CAP), R. M. Pryor (AAP), Marsh (AAP), Bastin (AAP), A. Henderson – captain (AAP), A. Bateman (AAP), Paulo M. Queiroz (CAP)
Reserves: MacIntyre (AAP), E. Littell (CAP), B. Hollnagel (AAP) and F. Espíndola (CAP)

AAP (Associação Atlética das Palmeiras) and CAP (Club Athlético Paulistano) were the two rugby teams in São Paulo at that moment.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby Canalina » Thu, 02 Apr 2020, 20:29

Apparently also Frederic Humbert, manager of the excellent page https://www.flickr.com/photos/rugby_pioneers/, has been hit by the epidemic

https://twitter.com/Frederic/status/1245793778176229376

PS: great find, Victorsra. Oldest italian rugby footage are from the same years, more or less

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby wooden shoe » Fri, 03 Apr 2020, 07:34

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:BALL measurements from SOVIET| GEORGIAN Lawbooks
(( they obviously followed INTERNATIONAL sources ))
+ OXFORD COMPANION
Code: Select all
Year          LENGTH      CIRCUMFERENCEs    WEIGHT

1938          275-285   760-790   630-640   375-425
1948          270-290   760-790   630-640   375-425

1975 OXFORD   279-286   762-787   601-648   383-425
1977          280-290   760-790   600-650   375-425

1981          280-300   760-790   580-620   400-440
1994          280-300   760-790   580-620   400-440

2003 JUNE     280-300   740-770   580-620   410-460
2018          280-300   740-770   580-620   410-460


Hence, some time between 1977-1981
BALL was made a bit
longer but slimmer | leaner (keeping same end-to-end circumference)
and heavier

In JUNE 2003 it was 'magically' transformed by reducing end-to-end circumference
whilst keeping length and in-width circumference intact, and once again made heavier

BUT could those alterations change the GAME essentially?

:::


The last question is something I think about a lot and I wonder why this is not discussed more.

I think the ball size changes have absolutely changed the game. The ball nowadays is easy to carry with one hand, more easy to catch, kick and spin pass and the bounce is less unpredictable. This ball needs less skill. I see that anybody who start playing the game can handle the ball quite quickly, where in the eigthies people struggled a long time to get any control over the old slippery mitre balls and the adidas ball (used a lot in France and I really loved that ball).

I regret this because it cuts the advantage for the more skillfull (smaller) players.

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby Vova12 » Fri, 03 Apr 2020, 08:51

Maybe someone will be interested ...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/German-Rugby ... SwlD5eYLyf
Image

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby Canalina » Fri, 03 Apr 2020, 09:18

wooden shoe wrote:... The ball nowadays is easy to carry with one hand ...

I never like when they do that. It seems somehow "disrespectful".
The meaning of the game should be to bring something precious (the ball) to the other side of the field, defending it with your body. To carry that thing with one hand is somehow against the hidden spirit of the game

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sat, 04 Apr 2020, 12:58

https://www.nrl.com/tv/

NRL.com have posted
every Grand Final from 1966 to 2018 and
every State of Origin game from 1980 to 2017
in the NRL TV section of their website.

They've also added a few documentaries and
some classic games.

Looks like all you need is a username and password to watch.

Some old Origin will be just the tonic for this lockdown period!

:::

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 06 Apr 2020, 19:05

My e-book (in Portuguese): The History of Rugby in Brazil (1891-2009)

https://www.amazon.com.br/Hist%C3%B3ria ... 421&sr=8-1

The last 10 years are for a future new edition :P
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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby iul » Tue, 07 Apr 2020, 05:29

victorsra wrote:My e-book (in Portuguese): The History of Rugby in Brazil (1891-2009)

https://www.amazon.com.br/Hist%C3%B3ria ... 421&sr=8-1

The last 10 years are for a future new edition :P

You have 8 names?

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby victorsra » Tue, 07 Apr 2020, 13:46

We are 4 authors
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby Canalina » Tue, 07 Apr 2020, 14:28

Congrats. Must be a nice proudness to have written a book!

I've just bought the online version of the Italian Rugby Guide 2020 (it has a new edition every year) but it's totally composed by data (results, dates, line-ups, rolls of honor, records...), not by stories

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby victorsra » Tue, 07 Apr 2020, 15:58

Thanks. But if we fund a publisher to print it nicely we'll ad much more photos.
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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Thu, 09 Apr 2020, 19:20

Dear Canalina

May I ask you to link me with authors of this book:

Francesco Volpe, Valerio Vecchiarelli
Italia in Meta
Storia della nazionale italiana di rugby
dagli albori al Sei Nazioni, GS Editore (2000)
ISBN 88-87374-40-6

I've a quest for THEM about 1985 'FIRA Trophy'

:::

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby Canalina » Thu, 09 Apr 2020, 19:48

You may find the e-mail of Francesco Volpe ("volpe" means "fox", just for curiosity) in this public article; in the last lines

https://www.federugby.it/index.php?opti ... 24&lang=it

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Thu, 09 Apr 2020, 20:25

Thank you very much

Mela-dze|shvili means almost the same: Fox-son

and there is Melia as well = exactly Fox

:::

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sat, 11 Apr 2020, 15:45

Canalina, THANK YOU for Volpe's email

Before I write to him, can you, please, check something in spare time for me

I assume it's your collection :!:
Where else could this pic fall from, into my archives :?:

Image

:::

Notably, is there any mention in 1985 | 1985-86 editions of this fact:

Result of 'Soviet Union 35-9 Tunisia', played on 12/05/1985 in Kiev,
was 'reversed' for unknown reason, probably for fielding banned player


May I ask you to check the same in this book as well

Image

:::

To discover at the age of 59 that we -- rugby folks --
were collectively duped 35 years ago about
SOV finishing second in 1985 -- is a real SHOCK :twisted:

Therefore, I'm keen to establsih the truth,
and if this 'reversal' UNFORTUNATELY is a web FORGERY of 2010s --
to right the WRONGs for good

:::

One could check himself

Of those 4 'language articles' of very same source -- WIKI

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984%E2%8 ... IRA_Trophy
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRA_Trophy_1984-85
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troph%C3% ... _1984-1985
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppa_FIRA_1984-1985

each give different | unique picture -- which is UNACCEPTABLE

As for me -- contemporary of those events, and
already keen statistician | collector | writer-in-making,
the TRUE version is this

http://matiane.qaflan.net/Years/1984.htm
http://matiane.qaflan.net/Years/1985.htm


FIRA 1984/85
Code: Select all
06/10   TUN    6:25   FRA
20/10   ITA   20: 6   TUN
10/11   ROM    3:18   FRA
17/11   TUN   15:17   SPN
18/11   ITA   13:12   SOV
16/12   SPN   19:33   ROM

17/02   FRA   34: 6   SPN
03/03   ITA    9:22   FRA
14/04   ROM    7: 6   ITA
01/05   SPN    9:15   SOV
05/05   ROM   30: 3   TUN
12/05   SOV   35: 9   TUN
16/05   FRA   36:21   SOV
18/05   ITA   22:13   SPN
31/05   SOV   14: 6   ROM

# XXX   W-L     F:A    H2H

1 FRA   5-0   135: 45
2 SOV   3-2    97: 73  +7
3 ITA   3-2    70: 60  =0
4 ROM   3-2    79: 60  -7
5 SPN   1-4    64:119
6 TUN   0-5    39:127


I've SOV paper clips (albeit there could be a COVER-UP)
and even FIRA ANNUAL 1992 which supports my version

:::

I could have written this as private message but
think that the fact should have made public instead

:::

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby Canalina » Sat, 11 Apr 2020, 17:29

No, unfortunately that nice collection is not mine. I've just two of those annual books: one on paper and one digital...
In the 2020 edition of the book there's the roll of honor of the European Championships, with no details of the games, and it reports URSS on second position for the 1984/85 tournament

Image

According to the image you posted with that series of books, in the eighties the rugby manual by Pacitti & Volpe was still not published. There was instead an other publication, called Tutto Rugby, written by Luciano Ravagnani and P.Vason; it had at least two editions, in 1985 and 1986.
I don't know Vason but Ravagnani is still writing, for the italian magazine "All Rugby"
This is the list of All Rugby collaborators https://allrugby.it/about-us/
And this is the form to make contact with them https://allrugby.it/contatti/

PS: if you hadn't already done it, I think the best thing could be trying to contact someone in Tunisia, via their facebook page

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sat, 11 Apr 2020, 18:44

Thanx, mate :thumbup:

THERE is no need to contact anybody in Tunisia
I doubt getting anything useful from them -- a Union in shambles

I'm satisfied re ITA origin: if Italian ANNUAL has it right in 2020
I assume all its previous editions had it same way

I've just inquired about Volpe --
for his book was referenced as authoritative source by Wiki

Hence, ERROR | FORGERY ( :?: ) stems from ELSEWHERE

:::

Of linked wiki articles,

* EN simply does NOT understand FORMER '3-team FIRA tie-break':
the author solved it '2020 way' and
put ROM above ITA on better overall difference

TUN and SPN pts are wrong either

* ES is poor: without results,
and standings are wrong from outset: SOV has 4 games and others 5

* FRA inexplicably lists ROM with 8 pts, TUN with 7 and has a pair of SILLY notes:
La rencontre entre la Tunisie et l'URSS n'est pas disputée.
L'Espagne est rétrogradée en raison d'une différence de points défavorable sur l'ensemble des 2 matchs disputés.

but it shows important CORRECT structure of that season: there were two "Division 2"s,
and winners of both - POR and NED -- should :!: have been promoted

* IT table is same as of ES, ie unbalanced, and
list of games ends in FANTASTIC 'Forfait Tunisia 6 – 0 Unione Sovietica '

:::

They all list relegation barrage on neutral venue (FRA) in autumn (12/10)
before start of new, now 2-year cycle: TUN beat SPN 12-9

As I got explanation from a 'respected man'
the barrage would have been possible ONLY if SOV forfeited to TUN

But why SOV proper, and NOT another team?

:::

I've urgently drawn two explanations for that barrage:

* either TUN lost controversially to SPN at home by 15-17 and
protested at AGM in june 1985

* or NED forego promotion to Elite for some reason
and as SPN and TUN were both relegated as per rules,
it was decided to stage a barrage to fill void created by NED refusal

* or it was a combination of both

But WHO knows :?:

I'll continue investigation, and if somebody helps, would be very grateful

:::

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby Canalina » Sat, 11 Apr 2020, 20:49

If you want to try, in this page they are publishing some Tunisian rugby club photos from the 70s and 80s.
Maybe the "owner" of the page remembers that game in Kiev

https://www.facebook.com/TunisiaRugby1972/

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby gibbs » Sun, 12 Apr 2020, 08:44

Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News - Saturday 12 October 1907

All Blacks vs All Ceylon (Sri Lanka)

Short stop over in Ceylon by the All Black touring squad on their way to British Isles

Image

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby Canalina » Sun, 12 Apr 2020, 09:05

Nice square of spectators!

It's just a bit strange because on the sides of the field they seem standing very near the line, while behind the posts they stand far from the end line (and very far from the try line)

PS: maybe you already wrote it: was that All Ceylon team composed just by british expats or were there also some local players?

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Re: OLD STUFF - rarities

Unread postby gibbs » Sun, 12 Apr 2020, 16:58

Canalina wrote:Nice square of spectators!

It's just a bit strange because on the sides of the field they seem standing very near the line, while behind the posts they stand far from the end line (and very far from the try line)

PS: maybe you already wrote it: was that All Ceylon team composed just by british expats or were there also some local players?


According to Wikipedia, The first Ceylonese representative in a national team was in 1938.. So most likely pre 38' would have been exclusively British

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