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Rugby in the Netherlands

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby NedRugby » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 21:19

Yes, I think I read that recently but I can't remember where. If I recall correctly he grew up in England, and might have played for one of the NL age-grade teams, before moving to NZ. Unless I am thinking of someone else.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby dropkick » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 23:33

NedRugby wrote:Yes, I think I read that recently but I can't remember where. If I recall correctly he grew up in England, and might have played for one of the NL age-grade teams, before moving to NZ. Unless I am thinking of someone else.



Jager grew up in Dublin if thats who you're talking about? Went to NZ on some sort of rugby training course and decided to stay there. He must be very good to make the crusaders squad.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Sun, 21 Oct 2018, 12:51

DEGIRO Ereklasse - Results and standings
After round 6:

Image
No surprises where the winners are concerned.
Expected a much closer result between Hilversum and DIOK however.
Last edited by Silver Fox on Mon, 12 Nov 2018, 23:26, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby NedRugby » Sun, 21 Oct 2018, 19:13

dropkick wrote:Jager grew up in Dublin if thats who you're talking about? Went to NZ on some sort of rugby training course and decided to stay there. He must be very good to make the crusaders squad.


Sorry, my brain must have remembered "some English speaking country off the coast of Europe" and translated it back as England. No offence intended.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby DragonMike » Wed, 24 Oct 2018, 09:28

Silver Fox wrote:Next week domestic competitions kick off and again there has been a (slight) increase in the number of participating teams.
The biggest rise is in the number of adults teams whereas the number of youth teams seams to be somewhat stagnant.
Not only have 6 new clubs registered with the union but it seems that the wave of new young players is starting to appear in the adult teams.

Image
Note that the U18 numbers were inflated from 2016 to 2018 because it was U19 then.

It is an encouraging sign that the boost rugby has had after RWC2015 wasn't just a hype and that Rugby Nederland has managed to consolidate the participation numbers and the apparent increase in interest in the sport.
This is obviously helped by the regulation that the tier a club is allowed to play in is determined by the number of youth teams a club has (among other organisational requirements).
I hope that next year in a similar way also RWC2019 can give Dutch (and other nations') rugby another boost.


Interesting, I did a quick count in Germany to give some comparison
u14: c.35 teams
u16: c.15 teams
u18: c.12 teams, whereby some only come together for a couple of games a year.

Overall probably confirms that Netherlands are on the right way, Germany mainly reliant on a few high performing regions/clubs, individual successes and heritage players etc.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby dropkick » Wed, 24 Oct 2018, 22:25

NedRugby wrote:
dropkick wrote:Jager grew up in Dublin if thats who you're talking about? Went to NZ on some sort of rugby training course and decided to stay there. He must be very good to make the crusaders squad.


Sorry, my brain must have remembered "some English speaking country off the coast of Europe" and translated it back as England. No offence intended.



I'm not easily offended, just passing on what I know. :thumbup:

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Mon, 29 Oct 2018, 20:11

DEGIRO Ereklasse - Results and standings
After round 7:

Image
- It's obvious that in particular Hilversum, 't Gooi and DIOK are a cut above the rest, but the results by Hilversum the last couple of weeks are a bit embarrasing.
It's good we're only four matchdays away from the second phase where the top six will be separated from the bottom six.
- The replay of the BeNeCup final was another tight affaire but with the same winner: 't Gooi remains lossless.
- The match between HRC and DSR-C saw the only two teams pitched together without foreign players; DSR-C because they, being a student outfit can't afford so and The Hague because they have it as a policy to rely as much as possible on homegrown talent and their own youth structures.
Last edited by Silver Fox on Mon, 12 Nov 2018, 23:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby NedRugby » Wed, 31 Oct 2018, 02:22

World Rugby video clip "The pathway to Dutch rugby success"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jjNn6a ... rUmA5_7EI8

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby mulu » Thu, 01 Nov 2018, 03:39

NedRugby wrote:World Rugby video clip "The pathway to Dutch rugby success"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jjNn6a ... rUmA5_7EI8


featuring the German 7s Development Team.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Sun, 04 Nov 2018, 18:05

DEGIRO Ereklasse - Results and standings - Round 8:
Image
Again some big scores. Compared to the results of the same matches from last season there isn't too much difference however.
In the second half of the season there will be much less mismatches. Also because Castricum seem to have recovered from a bad season last year.
Last edited by Silver Fox on Mon, 12 Nov 2018, 23:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 04 Nov 2018, 18:09

Are there clubs more based on academy than others? I see Haagsche RC gave Netherlands U20 up to four players for last European Championships but they don't perform that much domestically, lack of professionals?

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Sun, 04 Nov 2018, 21:55

No and yes.
If you mean with academy the clubs own youth teams then no.
It is obligatory for clubs to meet with a minimum standard in organisation, facilities and the number of teams and youth teams in competition to even be allowed to play at a certain level.
An exception is made for students teams, e.g. Ascrum and DSR-C, but all teams in the Ereklasse have at least 3 senior teams with their second team playing at least at the third level and with a U18, U16 and U14 teams in competition.
In that regard they are all comparable.
But of course some clubs are better than others.
The Haagsche RC for example is the biggest club in the Netherlands with the largest and most succesfull youth department.
They stood at the base of the very first regional youth academy ten years ago from which the current academy structure emerged.
No wonder they (until recently) were annual contenders for the national title. Last time they won it was 2014.

If you mean the centralized academies then yes.
After the success of the Rugby Academy ZuidWest in The Hague 5 more regional academies have emerged.
To complement the 'pathway to the top' 4 years ago the union established the National Talents Centre in Amsterdam.
Young players with the talent and ambition to play for the national teams are centralized there to train together and receive physiotherapy and nutrition there.
But to do this effectively the players have to move to the Amsterdam region. As a consequence these players also move to the top clubs in the Amsterdam region, being most notably RC Hilversum, RC 't Gooi, Castricumse RC and DIOK Leiden.
And if there are for example 2 scrumhalves in the NTC, they will not choose the same club so talent is spread over the top clubs.
Apart from this most clubs are semi-professional and hire foreign players. Like DIOK has 8 of them this and last season, as had Hilversum 2 seasons ago.
I don't know the exact numbers and positions they play or how influential everyone of them is but it's unlikely they weaken the teams.

To answer your second question: Yes, the HRC do have very good youth structures, arguably the best in the country, but they opted not to go down the route to hire foreigners.
Considering this, plus the fact that they are a bit outside the Amsterdam region (Dutch standards), they aren't doing that bad.

So, in short: in the last 4 years homegrown talent is much beter trained, of higher standards and concentrated in 4-5 clubs. Plus these clubs employ a good deal of foreign players.
I said there will be less mismatches in the second phase of the competition, but I do expect some whoppings for The Dukes and the HRC nonetheless.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 04 Nov 2018, 23:11

Thanks. In fact it was a single question just about club academies, not national ones, and your second answer was more than enough, but details are welcome.

In fact, are there more teams in Den Haag than Haagsche RC to make the most out of Rugby Academy ZuidWest? It could well work as a city host of a local rivalry à la Krasnoyarsk, Heidelberg, Valladolid...

Requirements to enter Ereklasse sound particularly strict (tighter than here), isn't there any tension with student teams making the most out of their loophole? A decently sponsored student team could attract talent through grants without spending a cent in age-grade competitions, therefore becoming a leecher of the system.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 04 Nov 2018, 23:34

Silver Fox wrote:No and yes.
If you mean with academy the clubs own youth teams then no.
It is obligatory for clubs to meet with a minimum standard in organisation, facilities and the number of teams and youth teams in competition to even be allowed to play at a certain level.
An exception is made for students teams, e.g. Ascrum and DSR-C, but all teams in the Ereklasse have at least 3 senior teams with their second team playing at least at the third level and with a U18, U16 and U14 teams in competition.
In that regard they are all comparable.
But of course some clubs are better than others.
The Haagsche RC for example is the biggest club in the Netherlands with the largest and most succesfull youth department.
They stood at the base of the very first regional youth academy ten years ago from which the current academy structure emerged.
No wonder they (until recently) were annual contenders for the national title. Last time they won it was 2014.

If you mean the centralized academies then yes.
After the success of the Rugby Academy ZuidWest in The Hague 5 more regional academies have emerged.
To complement the 'pathway to the top' 4 years ago the union established the National Talents Centre in Amsterdam.
Young players with the talent and ambition to play for the national teams are centralized there to train together and receive physiotherapy and nutrition there.
But to do this effectively the players have to move to the Amsterdam region. As a consequence these players also move to the top clubs in the Amsterdam region, being most notably RC Hilversum, RC 't Gooi, Castricumse RC and DIOK Leiden.
And if there are for example 2 scrumhalves in the NTC, they will not choose the same club so talent is spread over the top clubs.
Apart from this most clubs are semi-professional and hire foreign players. Like DIOK has 8 of them this and last season, as had Hilversum 2 seasons ago.
I don't know the exact numbers and positions they play or how influential everyone of them is but it's unlikely they weaken the teams.

To answer your second question: Yes, the HRC do have very good youth structures, arguably the best in the country, but they opted not to go down the route to hire foreigners.
Considering this, plus the fact that they are a bit outside the Amsterdam region (Dutch standards), they aren't doing that bad.

So, in short: in the last 4 years homegrown talent is much beter trained, of higher standards and concentrated in 4-5 clubs. Plus these clubs employ a good deal of foreign players.
I said there will be less mismatches in the second phase of the competition, but I do expect some whoppings for The Dukes and the HRC nonetheless.


How much interaction do the academies have with one another in regards to active competition. Do they play regular fixtures? And how much would you say do the Dutch identify with their regions? I ask because this kind of academy set up would be a solid base for the establishment of a semi-pro/professional competition. Or are clubs the big draw?

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Mon, 12 Nov 2018, 22:26

No domestic rugby last weekend.

Armchair Fan wrote:Requirements to enter Ereklasse sound particularly strict (tighter than here), isn't there any tension with student teams making the most out of their loophole? A decently sponsored student team could attract talent through grants without spending a cent in age-grade competitions, therefore becoming a leecher of the system.
Not that I have ever heard of.
Of course you can't expect them to field U14, U16 and U18 teams. But like other clubs they do have to have 3 senior teams in competition.
Instead of age-grade teams they have to enter a team in the 'young dogs'-competition of the Dutch Students Rugby Union.
This is a sort of development competition featuring teams with first year players or with teams from universities that are not able to full sides all season through.

Working Class Rugger wrote:How much interaction do the academies have with one another in regards to active competition.
Do they play regular fixtures? And how much would you say do the Dutch identify with their regions?
I ask because this kind of academy set up would be a solid base for the establishment of a semi-pro/professional competition. Or are clubs the big draw?
The Dutch academies are secondary schools with a rugby program running alongside it. So we are talking 12 to 18 years old kids.
So after hours they get their daily 2 hours of rugby but they keep training and playing with their clubs.
They will have their exchange programs and rugby tours, but to say they are in a regular competition, no.

Your question about identifying with our regions is an interesting one. Not because of the answer, which I think is no.
But more because of your perspective of regions compared to ours.

Sometimes the Canadians, Brazilians or Russians mention the challenges you people face regarding distances.
As a reference I have listed the distances the Dutch Ereklasse teams have to travel to the National Rugby Centre in Amsterdam:
Image
Code: Select all
RC Hilversum                          40 km
't Gooi (Naarden)                   35 km
Castricum                               32 km
The Dukes (Den Bosch)        101 km
Diok (Leiden)                          42 km
HRC (Den Haag)                     54 km
Amstelveen                            15 km
Ascrum (Amsterdam)                0 km   
Oemoemenoe (Middelburg)  166 km
Dsrc (Delft)                             43 km
Bassets (Sassenheim)            34 km
Waterland (Purmerend)          31 km
Mind you, there are clubs, like the Haagsche RC, that have up to three away games within 20 km.
So, local rivalries aplenty.
It must sound weird to your ears but in the last strategic plan of our union one of the goals is that there should be a rugbyclub within cycling range for every schoolkid in the country. 8-)
Last edited by Silver Fox on Mon, 12 Nov 2018, 23:40, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 12 Nov 2018, 22:42

Man...I'd love to have a club in cycling range...

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Working Class Rugger » Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 01:49

Silver Fox wrote:No domestic rugby last weekend.

Armchair Fan wrote:Requirements to enter Ereklasse sound particularly strict (tighter than here), isn't there any tension with student teams making the most out of their loophole? A decently sponsored student team could attract talent through grants without spending a cent in age-grade competitions, therefore becoming a leecher of the system.
Not that I have ever heard of.
Of course you can't expect them to field U14, U16 and U18 teams. But like other clubs they do have to have 3 senior teams in competition.
Instead of age-grade teams they have to enter a team in the 'young dogs'-competition of the Dutch Students Rugby Union.
This is a sort of development competition featuring teams with first year players or with teams from universities that are not able to full sides all season through.

Working Class Rugger wrote:How much interaction do the academies have with one another in regards to active competition.
Do they play regular fixtures? And how much would you say do the Dutch identify with their regions?
I ask because this kind of academy set up would be a solid base for the establishment of a semi-pro/professional competition. Or are clubs the big draw?
The Dutch academies are secondary schools with a rugby program running alongside it. So we are talking 12 to 18 years old kids.
So after hours they get their daily 2 hours of rugby but they keep training and playing with their clubs.
They will have their exchange programs and rugby tours, but to say they are in a regular competition, no.

Your question about identifying with our regions is an interesting one. Not because of the answer, which I think is no.
But more because of your perspective of regions compared to ours.

Sometimes the Canadians, Brazilians or Russians mention the challenges you people face regarding distances.
As a reference I have listed the distances the Dutch Ereklasse teams have to travel to the National Rugby Centre in Amsterdam:
Image
Code: Select all
RC Hilversum                          40 km
't Gooi (Naarden)                   35 km
Castricum                               32 km
The Dukes (Den Bosch)        101 km
Diok (Leiden)                          42 km
HRC (Den Haag)                     54 km
Amstelveen                            15 km
Ascrum (Amsterdam)                0 km   
Oemoemenoe (Middelburg)  166 km
Dsrc (Delft)                             43 km
Bassets (Sassenheim)            34 km
Waterland (Purmerend)          31 km
Mind you, there are clubs, like the Haagsche RC, that have up to three away games within 20 km.
So, local rivalries aplenty.
It must sound weird to your ears but in the last strategic plan of our union one of the goals is that there should be a rugbyclub within cycling range for every schoolkid in the country. 8-)


My aunt was Dutch and I couldn't recall whether or not there was a regional focus in the country. I know she mentioned that where she grew up they spoke a different dialect alongside Dutch but I cannot recall what it was. I'm familiar with the Dutch and cycling so it makes sense for them to want to have clubs within cycling distance. Exactly how far would that be?

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby rey200 » Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 10:37

so, pretty much only Holland, yes? So actually ~35% of the population. The distances could be greater with clubs coming from Limburg or Friesland.
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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby NedRugby » Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 13:47

Working Class Rugger wrote:My aunt was Dutch and I couldn't recall whether or not there was a regional focus in the country. I know she mentioned that where she grew up they spoke a different dialect alongside Dutch but I cannot recall what it was. I'm familiar with the Dutch and cycling so it makes sense for them to want to have clubs within cycling distance. Exactly how far would that be?


Sounds like your aunt might have been from Friesland. Frisian is actually a different language though, rather than a dialect of Dutch. Most regions, certainly as you head east away from the main population centres, have their own dialects.

Yes, rey200, the main rugby centres are in the provinces of North Holland and South Holland in the west of the Netherlands. 10 out of the 12 clubs in the premier league are from these two provinces. And in the 1st division it is similar, 8 out of 12.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Mon, 19 Nov 2018, 20:06

Only 1 game this weekend in the Ereklasse:

Amstelveense RC - LRC DIOK 0 - 50

No surprises and no changes in the rankings.


One thing though: a couple of weeks ago I mentioned that these big winning margins were also big margins in the same matches last year.
Well this still stands but after having a closer look it appears that these margins have gone up by 20 points on average.
This seems to suggest that powers seem to be concentrating in the leading 4 to 6 clubs.
I do not have the impression that the others are getting necessarily weaker though.
It makes me wonder though if we will see an unchanged competiton next season, or that there will be a contraction of some sort.
It would make sense to play less fase 1 games to make room for more BeNeCup or other higher level international games.
(Perhaps I should write them sometime, see if they spill some news)

@Nedrugby, what's your opinion on the increasing level of the clubs? Is it only relative, are the others getting weaker? Or are they all getting stronger, only some more than others?
I ask because rugby is not covered in regular media and I live too far away to be familiar with Ereklasse rugby. Maybe you are closer to the action.
(what I write is actually no more than scoreboard stories)

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 19 Nov 2018, 22:21

Silver Fox wrote:Only 1 game this weekend in the Ereklasse:

Amstelveense RC - LRC DIOK 0 - 50

No surprises and no changes in the rankings.


One thing though: a couple of weeks ago I mentioned that these big winning margins were also big margins in the same matches last year.
Well this still stands but after having a closer look it appears that these margins have gone up by 20 points on average.
This seems to suggest that powers seem to be concentrating in the leading 4 to 6 clubs.
I do not have the impression that the others are getting necessarily weaker though.
It makes me wonder though if we will see an unchanged competiton next season, or that there will be a contraction of some sort.
It would make sense to play less fase 1 games to make room for more BeNeCup or other higher level international games.
(Perhaps I should write them sometime, see if they spill some news)

@Nedrugby, what's your opinion on the increasing level of the clubs? Is it only relative, are the others getting weaker? Or are they all getting stronger, only some more than others?
I ask because rugby is not covered in regular media and I live too far away to be familiar with Ereklasse rugby. Maybe you are closer to the action.
(what I write is actually no more than scoreboard stories)


It certainly strikes me as a distinct separation between the top 4-6 clubs and the rest. Would be interesting to see why this is occurring. Is there a differing degree of professionalism? If so, what does the future hold for those clubs. Would they be better looking for stronger competitive structures in the form of the BeNe Cup. And run their 2nd XV's in the national league.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Mon, 19 Nov 2018, 23:12

Well, to go short: yes, they are definitely semi-professional, but I hope Nedrugby can confirm this and if there is a clear trend, and yes, they are looking for stronger competition.
I myself hope that one day they dare taking the step to enter the continental shield. On one hand it's mainly wishful thinking, but on the other hand would it be a very good way of finding out what are the main points for improvement.

Concerning 2nd, 3rd and 4th teams, in the Netherlands there is not a separate reserves competition. All teams, beit first xv's, reserve teams or cluster teams are joined in the competition piramid.
I know there is one Ereklasse club with their seconds in the second tier, the others have their reserves playing in the third tier division.
Ideally these teams consist of mainly U23 players, but if that is the case I couldn't tell.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby NedRugby » Mon, 19 Nov 2018, 23:25

Silver Fox wrote:@Nedrugby, what's your opinion on the increasing level of the clubs? Is it only relative, are the others getting weaker? Or are they all getting stronger, only some more than others?
I ask because rugby is not covered in regular media and I live too far away to be familiar with Ereklasse rugby. Maybe you are closer to the action.
(what I write is actually no more than scoreboard stories)


I'm not really in a position to say any more than you. I don't get along to Ereklasse games either, despite living within cycling distance of two or three of them. But I don't believe the other clubs are getting weaker in general. Is the effect of the academies a bit uneven maybe, so when the good juniors come through they end up in a limited number of clubs? Or are the better players becoming more ambitious and moving from weaker clubs to stronger ones to further their career? These are just guesses. I agree with what you put on the Poland thread, we definitely need some home-grown front row players.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby welshdragon2000 » Tue, 20 Nov 2018, 01:41

Question to the followers of Netherlands rugby: what’s the youth system like currently? I read that it is very strong and there are a lot of youngsters on pro contracts. Just how good could they be and where could this current crop of youngsters take them in the near future? Top 25? Are the Netherlands now at a stage where they can realistically challenge Portugal in the Trophy? I’d love to see a game between the Netherlands and Belgium to decide promotion/relegation, I can imagine that there is a strong rivalry there. Any names in particular to look out for in the coming years?

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Working Class Rugger » Tue, 20 Nov 2018, 01:53

welshdragon2000 wrote:Question to the followers of Netherlands rugby: what’s the youth system like currently? I read that it is very strong and there are a lot of youngsters on pro contracts. Just how good could they be and where could this current crop of youngsters take them in the near future? Top 25? Are the Netherlands now at a stage where they can realistically challenge Portugal in the Trophy? I’d love to see a game between the Netherlands and Belgium to decide promotion/relegation, I can imagine that there is a strong rivalry there. Any names in particular to look out for in the coming years?


I think its been discussed here previously but the junior ranks are growing. The Dutch Union seems to be doing things the right way after having to right the ship several years back. They certainly appear to be a rising nations and should continue as their youth system matures. That's my take on everything discussed here. But our Dutch contributors would know more than I could ever pretend to.

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