Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Change in Residency Eligibility

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby amz » Thu, 11 May 2017, 23:12

MikeN wrote:Plus as my parents were diplomats I was constantly moving from country to country.


I didn't know diplomats take the identity of the countries where they were working. Considering the diplomats I met before, what you say it is really odd. Yet, Vatican have a clear identity...

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 12 May 2017, 00:47

MikeN wrote:I find it hard to pick a flag because my four biological grandparents and 2 stepones were all born in different countries, as were my parents and stepmother. Plus as my parents were diplomats I was constantly moving from country to country.

As far as your parents are concerned, what country were they diplomats of...Vatican is a bit weird as there are very few vatican citizens and the Vatican will never field national teams ever.

The players are making their own calculated moves to go play overseas professionally and then for the national side. You'll still have that happening, the Union will just have to wait on their eligibility.

I think you can cull the abuse of the ancestry rule by moving to the Olympic style eligibility that now most 7s programs have to use which is simple: you have to be a passport holder of that country.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby ultravioletu » Fri, 12 May 2017, 06:26

What I wanted to say is that "ancestry" is much worse than "residence".

I'm sure this sounds a blasphemy for many here, bu so called "project players" aren't that bad, imho. Mind you, they had to spend a certain period in the adopted country, and the relationship was mutual. Sure, Bundee or CJ were talented teenagers, from which Ireland profits, but we all know that a talented yougster does not automatically turn into a top class test player. These guys spent time playing inside Irish rugby competitions, benefited from coaching / mentoring / medical assistance / life standards etc, and are definitely more of a product of Irish Rugby than let's say one guy who spent his entire life/career down under, but qualifies for Ireland just because his grandpa was born in Cobh eighty years ago.

"Place of Birth" is outdated in the 21st century, with all globalization / mobility / EU's Right of abode factored in.

And the passport rule works very well for Wendyball. Heck, when I think of it, they even managed to accomodate the home unions into it. But sure, soccer is the work of Satan, there is no way that a sport such pure and stainless would ever consider something so low like borrowing from it.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 12 May 2017, 06:59

Agree about the passport rule. That really prove that you have something to share with that country.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 12 May 2017, 07:13

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/leo-war ... ss-exodus/
I agree with him but he is wrong about Argentina

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 12 May 2017, 07:50

ultravioletu wrote:The ridiculousness of the "born in" rule would truly shine if some inventive and ressourceful DRV official started compiling a list of all children fathered in Bundesrepublik by NATO-military-serving British, French and US parents and then cross-checking which of them took up rugby in their real home countries. Or which of their children. Or grand-children. All of those would be - as per current rule - perfectly eligible for Germany.


Please take your notes here, Mulu :D
Germany at the World Cup 2019 and 2023 confirmed 8-)
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 12 May 2017, 08:13

amz wrote:
MikeN wrote:Plus as my parents were diplomats I was constantly moving from country to country.


I didn't know diplomats take the identity of the countries where they were working. Considering the diplomats I met before, what you say it is really odd. Yet, Vatican have a clear identity...


Maybe, just maybe he's catholic and that's an identity.


ultravioletu wrote:What I wanted to say is that "ancestry" is much worse than "residence".

I'm sure this sounds a blasphemy for many here, bu so called "project players" aren't that bad, imho. Mind you, they had to spend a certain period in the adopted country, and the relationship was mutual. Sure, Bundee or CJ were talented teenagers, from which Ireland profits, but we all know that a talented yougster does not automatically turn into a top class test player. These guys spent time playing inside Irish rugby competitions, benefited from coaching / mentoring / medical assistance / life standards etc, and are definitely more of a product of Irish Rugby than let's say one guy who spent his entire life/career down under, but qualifies for Ireland just because his grandpa was born in Cobh eighty years ago.

"Place of Birth" is outdated in the 21st century, with all globalization / mobility / EU's Right of abode factored in.

And the passport rule works very well for Wendyball. Heck, when I think of it, they even managed to accomodate the home unions into it. But sure, soccer is the work of Satan, there is no way that a sport such pure and stainless would ever consider something so low like borrowing from it.


You already correctly stated that those rules with the place of birth are there because of the Home Nations. But lets have a second thought about the soccer rules. Do you honestly think this will change that players are poached? It works in soccer because every nation has a national team playing against the best (or at the world cup after the latest reform). It won't work in rugby. My guess is that suddenly a few Pacific Islanders might suddenly get the Usbekistan passport (just an example) or of any other country were money can buy passports and you will have even MORE poaching.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby amz » Fri, 12 May 2017, 08:14

RugbyLiebe wrote:Maybe, just maybe he's catholic and that's an identity.


Eligibility for all Catholic countries confirmed.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby kush123 » Fri, 12 May 2017, 08:26

Bogdan_DC wrote:http://www.planetrugby.com/news/leo-warns-of-mass-exodus/
I agree with him but he is wrong about Argentina
I disagree with him , we have seen enough u16 star players fading as they grows and players who did not shined that much shining in u20 level, young boys bodies growing is unpredictable in that u15 16 level , it's just going to be an unworthy gamble .

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 12 May 2017, 08:29

kush123 wrote:
Bogdan_DC wrote:http://www.planetrugby.com/news/leo-warns-of-mass-exodus/
I agree with him but he is wrong about Argentina
I disagree with him , we have seen enough u16 star players fading as they grows and players who did not shined that much shining in u20 level, young boys bodies growing is unpredictable in that u15 16 level , it's just going to be an unworthy gamble .


Messi was a gamble also. ALL young lads are a gamble anyway.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 12 May 2017, 08:30

TheStroBro wrote:
MikeN wrote:I think you can cull the abuse of the ancestry rule by moving to the Olympic style eligibility that now most 7s programs have to use which is simple: you have to be a passport holder of that country.

Wait until UAE, Qatar and Turkey begin to gift passports to Kiwis and Fijians. And as stated in previous topics on this issue, countries like Spain have doors quite open for those with Spanish ancestry, so our situation wouldn't change too much. Maybe we couldn't call so many French because France doesn't accept double nationality deals, but the player pool in Argentina would be immense. Heck, even those who have a link to Spanish Jews expelled in the XVIth century have right to Spanish nationality.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 12 May 2017, 08:35

amz wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Maybe, just maybe he's catholic and that's an identity.


Eligibility for all Catholic countries confirmed.


Hallelujah!
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby amz » Fri, 12 May 2017, 08:38

RugbyLiebe wrote:
amz wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Maybe, just maybe he's catholic and that's an identity.


Eligibility for all Catholic countries confirmed.


Hallelujah!


Now isn't this a loophole? :twisted:

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby marino » Fri, 12 May 2017, 08:48

I´m more worried about project palyers, which without any doubt, move to other country just to play for the national side, than players with ancestry in other country. Culture in the family does not disappear so fast, to forget where you family come from.

In my opinion it also depends on the player, it could sound strange but i would rather prefer to play for Spain than doin it for the All Blacks, France or England, and it wouldn´t matter how much they pay me. But as i said it depend on the player and what he/she looks for.
Last edited by marino on Fri, 12 May 2017, 13:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 12 May 2017, 08:54

amz wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
amz wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Maybe, just maybe he's catholic and that's an identity.


Eligibility for all Catholic countries confirmed.


Hallelujah!


Now isn't this a loophole? :twisted:


So what if half a country is catholic and half of the country is protestant? God's ways are mysterious sometimes - and even more World Rugby's.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby 4N » Fri, 12 May 2017, 12:07

Bogdan_DC wrote:http://www.planetrugby.com/news/leo-warns-of-mass-exodus/
I agree with him but he is wrong about Argentina


He's wrong about Japan.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 12 May 2017, 12:23

4N wrote:
Bogdan_DC wrote:http://www.planetrugby.com/news/leo-warns-of-mass-exodus/
I agree with him but he is wrong about Argentina


He's wrong about Japan.

Maybe in the future yes, i can see a growing in youth sector for Japan but at the last WC:

JAPAN (11) Unsurprisingly the Brave Blossoms have a number of expatriate internationals, with most originally coming to Japan on professional contracts. Koliniasi Holani and Michael Leitch both moved to the country for school as teenagers, while Amanaki Mafi arrived for university. Kotaro Matsushima split his schooling between South Africa and Japan, the home country of his mother.

PLAYER POS BIRTH COUNTRY ELIGIBILITY
Luke Thompson LO New Zealand Residency (2007)
Michael Broadhurst FL New Zealand Residency (2012)
Justin Ives FL New Zealand Residency (2011)
Michael Leitch FL New Zealand Residency (2007)
Hendrik Tui FL New Zealand Residency (2012)
Koliniasi Holani N8 Tonga Residency (2001)
Amanaki Mafi N8 Tonga Residency (2013)
Male Sa’u CE New Zealand Residency (2011)
Craig Wing CE Australia Residency (2013)
Karne Hesketh WI New Zealand Residency (2013)
Kotaro Matsushima WI South Africa Parent

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby 4N » Fri, 12 May 2017, 12:29

I agree with that. Leo's actual quote is non-homegrown players. He was obviously trying to pat Japan on the back around the RWC draw but his quote makes no sense given the current reality.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 12 May 2017, 12:37

4N wrote:I agree with that. Leo's actual quote is non-homegrown players. He was obviously trying to pat Japan on the back around the RWC draw but his quote makes no sense given the current reality.


Ah i think PR makes a blunder here and actually yes, he is wrong about Japan not Argentina:

"Leo went on to say the new rule would benefit countries like Argentina and Japan that don’t produce as much homegrown talent
“I think this particular rule probably most benefits teams like Argentina, Japan, that don’t have as much non-home grown talent,” said Leo."

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby amz » Fri, 12 May 2017, 12:49

Guy, didn't you realized so far how many amateurs and ignorants are in supposedly professional roles in this sport?

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby datodato » Fri, 12 May 2017, 21:36

the new rules mean that either romania will lose half of it's "national team" or there will be an influx of new romanian citizens with southern hemisphere backgrounds!

just kidding guys, take it easy. just joking, just joking... only kidding... hehe...

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby Bogdan_DC » Sat, 13 May 2017, 05:02

I wouldn't be that happy, a lot of Georgians will lose the hope for a better life in a better place. Quote: "Just joking, take it easy, he he."

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby honestly_united » Mon, 15 May 2017, 13:42

I wonder how much this will impact the Tier 3 and below countries?
Just asking as I noticed by coincidence today (reading the Nacra thread), that a lad I played with many years ago (nearly 20) was recalled to Bermuda squad for last weekends game. He will have qualified through residency many years ago having moved their for work in his mid 20's. Will the rule changes impact this situation where someone who is a good amateur player who moves to another country for work, wants to still play rugby in his new country, and finds himself as one of the top players in his adopted country?

Most players in this situation will then be getting close to "over the hill" after 5 years, and may decide not to represent their adopted country as they may think they are holding back a native player, whereas after 3 they may still feel they have something to give and contribute to their new home.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 15 May 2017, 16:24

honestly_united wrote:I wonder how much this will impact the Tier 3 and below countries?
Just asking as I noticed by coincidence today (reading the Nacra thread), that a lad I played with many years ago (nearly 20) was recalled to Bermuda squad for last weekends game. He will have qualified through residency many years ago having moved their for work in his mid 20's. Will the rule changes impact this situation where someone who is a good amateur player who moves to another country for work, wants to still play rugby in his new country, and finds himself as one of the top players in his adopted country?

Most players in this situation will then be getting close to "over the hill" after 5 years, and may decide not to represent their adopted country as they may think they are holding back a native player, whereas after 3 they may still feel they have something to give and contribute to their new home.


We definitely see less of this players. Just a matter of math and as you stated age. Who studies i.e. for 5 years? Within 3 year a lot of uni students become eligible - probably a really important source for lower t3 countries...
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Change in Residency Eligibility

Postby Suiram » Mon, 15 May 2017, 19:27

the cumulative residency thing could be quite interesting with situations where children lived in a certain country or went to school somewhere. In the past, people that moved on for work or study reset their residency clock, but there may be some corner cases especially places where parents might be spending years for work. And since its cumulative, that means if you spent 8 years as child in a country, you will only take 2 years to achieve full qualification on residency.

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