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The future of Italian Rugby

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby iul » Mon, 06 Jan 2020, 05:40

Why would having one league be more profitable than having two?

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Figaro » Mon, 06 Jan 2020, 16:57

iul wrote:Why would having one league be more profitable than having two?


It's more a question of, are the Celtic sides more valuable as part of a B&I league or where they are? Games between English and Celtic sides are seen as more profitable than games between different Celtic nations.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 06 Jan 2020, 19:13

Back on topic, but just as unlikely to happen:

I think Italy is trying to fit into the current structure too much and should instead try to mould the structure to their needs ala Japan's Top League.

I think they should focus on two things: 6N and domestic league.

Withdraw from Pro14, withdraw from Europe and model your league on something between the Top League, cricket's Big Bash League and the NFL.

8 team league, based on the biggest cities, played in a mixture of biggish stadiums. 16 weeks from September to beginning of 6N with a gap for the autumn tests. Rest/national team camp until the July internationals.

Aim to be the best paying league in the world, Italy has an attractive tax rate for foreigners (https://en.as.com/en/2019/06/27/football/1561665200_458007.html) and if this new league idea could be packaged with the 6N you would need a TV deal of around €60m per year (equivalent to 4% of the Italian football TV deal), attendances of 25,000 and commercial revenue of €5m to be able to comfortably fund €9m salary budgets. With only 16 games in a season, you would only need a squad of 35 players. This massively increases the amount you can pay the best ones and, from a marketing perspective, €1m a season players (1 per team?) would be achievable. €1m at 21% tax is a huge take home pay disparity to the same sum in England or France. You would be able to attract even the best players from England and France for that.

Break the game and reformat it in their favour.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby iul » Mon, 06 Jan 2020, 19:48

Figaro wrote:
iul wrote:Why would having one league be more profitable than having two?


It's more a question of, are the Celtic sides more valuable as part of a B&I league or where they are? Games between English and Celtic sides are seen as more profitable than games between different Celtic nations.

...because the Celtic markets are small. English-Celtic games wouldn't be worth more than English-English games, that's for sure.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Mon, 06 Jan 2020, 20:21

Top12 standing after day VIII
Rovigo 36 points, Valorugby 35, Calvisano 30, Fiamme Oro Roma 30; Petrarca Padova 28, Mogliano 20, San Donà 15, Viadana 13, Hbs Colorno 10, Medicei Firenze 10; Lyons Piacenza 8, Lazio 6.

Yesterday Viadana defeated 13-3 the national champion Calvisano


Individual charts (points, tries, drop goals, kicking percentage)
https://blog.rugby.it/?p=10620

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby iul » Mon, 06 Jan 2020, 20:26

sk 88 wrote:Back on topic, but just as unlikely to happen:

I think Italy is trying to fit into the current structure too much and should instead try to mould the structure to their needs ala Japan's Top League.

I think they should focus on two things: 6N and domestic league.

Withdraw from Pro14, withdraw from Europe and model your league on something between the Top League, cricket's Big Bash League and the NFL.

8 team league, based on the biggest cities, played in a mixture of biggish stadiums. 16 weeks from September to beginning of 6N with a gap for the autumn tests. Rest/national team camp until the July internationals.

Aim to be the best paying league in the world, Italy has an attractive tax rate for foreigners (https://en.as.com/en/2019/06/27/football/1561665200_458007.html) and if this new league idea could be packaged with the 6N you would need a TV deal of around €60m per year (equivalent to 4% of the Italian football TV deal), attendances of 25,000 and commercial revenue of €5m to be able to comfortably fund €9m salary budgets. With only 16 games in a season, you would only need a squad of 35 players. This massively increases the amount you can pay the best ones and, from a marketing perspective, €1m a season players (1 per team?) would be achievable. €1m at 21% tax is a huge take home pay disparity to the same sum in England or France. You would be able to attract even the best players from England and France for that.

Break the game and reformat it in their favour.

They barely manage to sell the 6N in Italy and they only get 2-3 million euro from it. There's just no way they'd be able to sell the rights to anything rugby related for tens of millions.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 06 Jan 2020, 20:42

iul wrote:
Figaro wrote:
iul wrote:Why would having one league be more profitable than having two?


It's more a question of, are the Celtic sides more valuable as part of a B&I league or where they are? Games between English and Celtic sides are seen as more profitable than games between different Celtic nations.

...because the Celtic markets are small. English-Celtic games wouldn't be worth more than English-English games, that's for sure.


I would be happy to see an English-Celtic division below the English Premiership. The English Championship is ok but doesn't come close to the Pro D2 as a second tier league. With a few bigger clubs from Wales and even a third Scottish Pro team, and without smaller English clubs like Ampthill and Hartbury, the league could be more valuable than it is currently.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby iul » Mon, 06 Jan 2020, 21:54

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
iul wrote:
Figaro wrote:
iul wrote:Why would having one league be more profitable than having two?


It's more a question of, are the Celtic sides more valuable as part of a B&I league or where they are? Games between English and Celtic sides are seen as more profitable than games between different Celtic nations.

...because the Celtic markets are small. English-Celtic games wouldn't be worth more than English-English games, that's for sure.


I would be happy to see an English-Celtic division below the English Premiership. The English Championship is ok but doesn't come close to the Pro D2 as a second tier league. With a few bigger clubs from Wales and even a third Scottish Pro team, and without smaller English clubs like Ampthill and Hartbury, the league could be more valuable than it is currently.

The English 2nd league is so small because the premiership clubs have designed the league structure to be that way

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby ihateblazers » Tue, 07 Jan 2020, 07:39

iul wrote:
Figaro wrote:
iul wrote:Why would having one league be more profitable than having two?


It's more a question of, are the Celtic sides more valuable as part of a B&I league or where they are? Games between English and Celtic sides are seen as more profitable than games between different Celtic nations.

...because the Celtic markets are small. English-Celtic games wouldn't be worth more than English-English games, that's for sure.


You have to look at it in the wider context of the market though. Selling the TV rights as one block, with 22-24 teams and however many games per week plus more play off matches to 1 broadcaster might be more attractive, Sky and BT Sports cover both Ireland and the UK. Look at replicating the commercial success of the 6 nations at club level.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Figaro » Wed, 08 Jan 2020, 12:01

iul wrote:
Figaro wrote:
iul wrote:Why would having one league be more profitable than having two?


It's more a question of, are the Celtic sides more valuable as part of a B&I league or where they are? Games between English and Celtic sides are seen as more profitable than games between different Celtic nations.

...because the Celtic markets are small. English-Celtic games wouldn't be worth more than English-English games, that's for sure.


I don't think that's how it works. Yes, the Celtic nations are smaller than England. But Dublin, Glasgow and Cardiff are not smaller markets than Northampton or Worcester and they're certainly not smaller than Doncaster or Bedford.

Even assuming for the sake of argument that merging the leagues would mean no increase in interest from England, that doesn't mean it wouldn't increase it overall compared to the status quo.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby jservuk » Wed, 08 Jan 2020, 20:17

sk 88 wrote:Back on topic, but just as unlikely to happen:

I think Italy is trying to fit into the current structure too much and should instead try to mould the structure to their needs ala Japan's Top League.

I think they should focus on two things: 6N and domestic league.

Withdraw from Pro14, withdraw from Europe and model your league on something between the Top League, cricket's Big Bash League and the NFL.

8 team league, based on the biggest cities, played in a mixture of biggish stadiums. 16 weeks from September to beginning of 6N with a gap for the autumn tests. Rest/national team camp until the July internationals.


Aim to be the best paying league in the world, Italy has an attractive tax rate for foreigners (https://en.as.com/en/2019/06/27/football/1561665200_458007.html) and if this new league idea could be packaged with the 6N you would need a TV deal of around €60m per year (equivalent to 4% of the Italian football TV deal), attendances of 25,000 and commercial revenue of €5m to be able to comfortably fund €9m salary budgets. With only 16 games in a season, you would only need a squad of 35 players. This massively increases the amount you can pay the best ones and, from a marketing perspective, €1m a season players (1 per team?) would be achievable. €1m at 21% tax is a huge take home pay disparity to the same sum in England or France. You would be able to attract even the best players from England and France for that.

Break the game and reformat it in their favour.


It would be interesting top see this come to fruition, or at least attempted.

What makes me doubt the success of this is that it would be extremely difficult to create a teams in English big cities, a country where RU is very well established, so what chance has Italy got? Crowds of 25,000 is what Serie A averages these days, so I think that might not be a realistic target.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Thu, 09 Jan 2020, 22:29

Zebre are going to play one Pro14 game in Milan and one in Jesi in the next months

Image

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby ihateblazers » Fri, 10 Jan 2020, 03:19

Canalina wrote:Zebre are going to play one Pro14 game in Milan and one in Jesi in the next months


Yea i saw that in Legnano. It's quite far from Milan though isn't it? Would there be any potential in the future to play at the Arena Civica in downtown Milan?

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Fri, 10 Jan 2020, 08:18

Yes, I've seen now, Legnano. I had read just the titles of the articles (https://www.zebrerugbyclub.it/zebre-e-i ... -lombardo/) and I really thought it was Milan. Instead it's Legnano, 25 km far.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 12 Jan 2020, 14:38

https://roma.corriere.it/notizie/cronac ... resh_ce-cp

Flaminio will probably reopen in 2021.
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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby m.map » Sun, 12 Jan 2020, 17:26

victorsra wrote:https://roma.corriere.it/notizie/cronaca/19_agosto_29/frongia-il-progettodel-flaminio-prontosara-centroper-sport-cultura-274b13c6-c9ae-11e9-89f2-27d7028d49f0.shtml?refresh_ce-cp

Flaminio will probably reopen in 2021.

sorry, victorsra
the article does not say that the flaminio will reopen but that perhaps the work will restart

PERHAPS
in italy it means: I don't know what will happen, not at all
and I don't care, anyway
Canalina could confirm, I suppose

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Sun, 12 Jan 2020, 17:46

m.map wrote:Canalina could confirm, I suppose

Perhaps :geek:

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 12 Jan 2020, 19:14

Oh, sorry. But it doesn't look a work that once started would take yeaaars.
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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby m.map » Sun, 12 Jan 2020, 20:06

victorsra wrote:Oh, sorry. But it doesn't look a work that once started would take yeaaars.

in Italy yes. in Rome more :(

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 12 Jan 2020, 21:09

About that subject, the options Italy has for professional rugby.

I wonder if an improved "Argentine-model" could work for Italy. What I mean is to have just 1 PRO14 team, owned by FIR, as FIR already funds partialy Zebre and Benetton. Flaminio could offer this oportunity of a national franchise. The single team, without non-Italy-eligible players could have better results and better impact for the sport. Although it is undeniable the 2 franchises are improving, specialy Benetton now. So, the 2-teams model is not a total fail, anyway.

In a single team model, the difference between Italy and Argentina would be the fact Italy would have no reason of not wanting their players playing in Top 14 or Premiership, as the calendars are the same (Los Pumas, in the other hand, play the Rugby Championship during European off-season, what poses problems for them to count with Europe-based players... that's the main reason, I'd say, for their Jaguares approach).

With a single PRO14 team, they could work on the improve of the Italian Championship, with the return of Benetton to the national championship, renewing rivalries against Rovigo, Petrarca, etc (not sure if Zebre would fit there, as they aren't properly a club like Benetton... but this is detail). IMO a Top 8 would be more suitable to make it a stronger full-professional league - and obivously with Challenge Cup spot(s). When Super 10 was Italy's top league, their clubs had a couple of good moments. With no more than 8 clubs the level of the spectacle could improve.

In other words, I don't think Italy now is in a wrong direction. There are improvements and there is no obvious solution for anything, things are hard in the T1 world, specialy in a soccer-dominated country. However, maybe this could be an alternative path, without a radical change, but exploring other oportunities.
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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby ihateblazers » Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 07:32

That could work if the pro 14 reduced the amount of fixtures so that internationals played a higher percentage of matches. Otherwise the squad will be decimated during the international windows.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 14:47

True!

Or they stop the Italian Championship during the 6N and november and use Italian players with temporary contracts for PRO14. That would be good for young players, but would have a negative impact in the table for the team most likely.
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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Ainsthrilln » Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 21:32

victorsra wrote:True!

Or they stop the Italian Championship during the 6N and november and use Italian players with temporary contracts for PRO14. That would be good for young players, but would have a negative impact in the table for the team most likely.


They already do that.

If you look at the 35 players on this year 6N squad, a few of them have two teams mentioned, one in the Italian league and the other a Pro14 franchise. They have been using Top12 players as jokers for years, when the national team is playing. And usually they are youngsters, for whom being a joker in February and March is an opportunity to prove themselves and earn a full contract for the following season.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby ihateblazers » Tue, 14 Jan 2020, 02:50

victorsra wrote:True!

Or they stop the Italian Championship during the 6N and november and use Italian players with temporary contracts for PRO14. That would be good for young players, but would have a negative impact in the table for the team most likely.


They could do that, but it would be the same issue as now and i don't think it's a great structure for a premium product. Having one Super rugby team works for Argentina since they only play 16 games and the squad is rotated during the season, not depleted and youth players can play in the development teams instead. They can legitimately market the Jaguares as the national team and a premium product in Buenos Aires. It's ok to bring through academy and depth players in the premiership or top 14 during the season since they have more teams and therefore a wider spread of burden of international callups, so rotation is seen as natural throughout the season. In the Pro 14 though, apart from the Irish who are happy with the status quo since it suits them, it does not work for the competition overall. Italy would benefit highly from having a high performing team with great marketability in a big city. It would also be a good structure to bring in new markets from Europe in a similar vein. If the Pro 14 keeps the current system though i think Italy should increase to 4 teams or pull out.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 14 Jan 2020, 09:30

ihateblazers wrote:
victorsra wrote:True!

Or they stop the Italian Championship during the 6N and november and use Italian players with temporary contracts for PRO14. That would be good for young players, but would have a negative impact in the table for the team most likely.


They could do that, but it would be the same issue as now and i don't think it's a great structure for a premium product. Having one Super rugby team works for Argentina since they only play 16 games and the squad is rotated during the season, not depleted and youth players can play in the development teams instead. They can legitimately market the Jaguares as the national team and a premium product in Buenos Aires. It's ok to bring through academy and depth players in the premiership or top 14 during the season since they have more teams and therefore a wider spread of burden of international callups, so rotation is seen as natural throughout the season. In the Pro 14 though, apart from the Irish who are happy with the status quo since it suits them, it does not work for the competition overall. Italy would benefit highly from having a high performing team with great marketability in a big city. It would also be a good structure to bring in new markets from Europe in a similar vein. If the Pro 14 keeps the current system though i think Italy should increase to 4 teams or pull out.


I agree that Italy should have 4 Pro 14 teams. I'm not sure if big city teams would catch on. Rugby tends to be more popular in towns and small cities. Spectators love local rivalries. I think another Veneto team should be added, and Calvisano. Benetton Treviso and Zebre are both showing a lot of improvement and attendances are growing. With more derbies they would grow a lot more.

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