Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

The future of Italian Rugby

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 25 Feb 2018, 15:18

Ancestry is very problematic. If you want to defend the country of your father or mother, there is a very obvious link. In this case children often spend holidays on the country of the parents, and/or have family there, and/or speak a native language... But when it is grandparents, greatparents, it starts to become more complicated, because many times the ties are more fragile... however, it is hard to judge.
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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby amz » Sun, 25 Feb 2018, 16:54

victorsra wrote:Ancestry is very problematic. If you want to defend the country of your father or mother, there is a very obvious link. In this case children often spend holidays on the country of the parents, and/or have family there, and/or speak a native language... But when it is grandparents, greatparents, it starts to become more complicated, because many times the ties are more fragile... however, it is hard to judge.


Was more about moaning that Italians use players born abroad with obvious Italian heritage while there's no problem with Brits when suddenly somebody in NZ find a gran grand parent.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 25 Feb 2018, 16:59

amz wrote:ancestry thing that Brits are using to get those SH players is more of an issue than Italians who played abroad but most posters carefully avoid to talk about this. How many non-Scottish born were in the squad which defeated England yesterday?

11 out of 23 if I'm not mistaken, 15 out of 29 in the whole tournament so far. I'm taking good note of this in case media shitstorm regarding our Frenchies arises :D

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby amz » Sun, 25 Feb 2018, 17:29

Armchair Fan wrote:
amz wrote:ancestry thing that Brits are using to get those SH players is more of an issue than Italians who played abroad but most posters carefully avoid to talk about this. How many non-Scottish born were in the squad which defeated England yesterday?

11 out of 23 if I'm not mistaken, 15 out of 29 in the whole tournament so far. I'm taking good note of this in case media shitstorm regarding our Frenchies arises :D


Yet people find disturbing 3 Islanders and 1 Saffa in Romanian squad :roll:

LE:
Italy have less than most Home nations:
http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2018/0 ... x-nations/

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Figaro » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 10:12

This topic resurfaces on these forums every year or so. I will make the points I always make, which are

1) Every case is unique and you can't tar them all with the same brush e.g. Ross Moriarty, who technically qualifies for Wales via his father, was only born in England because his father (who also played for Wales) was living in Merseyside playing for a RL at the time. Moriarty then went on to grow up in Swansea. So it's absurd to put him at the same level as e.g. Gareth Anscombe, who grew up in NZ and probably hadn't visited Wales before coming to play for the Blues and the national side. Or Hadleigh Parkes/WP Nel, who were named in Wales/Scotland squads before they even became eligible.

2) The fact is it all depends very much on the context of the specific nation(s) in question. Some countries, for geographical, historical and political reasons, are always going to have more players born outside their borders than others. So the fact Georgia and Argentina use the fewest imports has more to do with the fact that they don't have professional local leagues that allow them to naturalise foreign players and they don't have singificant diasporas living abroad in other Rugby playing nations - rather than any kind of selection policy. It's not as if there are a dozen Georgian-qualified New Zealanders that aren't being selected out of some purist principle that only "real" Georgians should be allowed to play - those people just don't exist.

So to my mind it's pointless to bash countries for selecting eligible players. All countriies are selecting the players they are able to, within the current rules. Should the rules be changed? Maybe, but that's a different argument.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 10:34

I've got no real issues with foreign players being selected for national teams., because it means they are committed to the jersey. It's not unique to rugby, god knows how many european tennis players have opted to come here and represent Australia at the Davis Cup and Fed Cup.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby amz » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 10:36

...or 2000 Sydney Summer Olympics. That was wild

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 13:28

The only real problem are players with no ancestry that went to a country already as rugby professionals.
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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby 4N » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 13:32

victorsra wrote:The only real problem are players with no ancestry that went to a country already as rugby professionals.


I tend to agree.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 13:59

Me too. Looking forward to change to 5 year residency rule. Might make the Akis and Paynes think twice. Tbh they will probably still go to Euro clubs but at least they won't provide a quick fix in certain countries over unions working hard to develop their own talent for their national senior mens team. There will be more integrity in NT squads. I don't have problem with grandparents. That's still only 2 generations removed from country of origin which is nothing (esp if said grandparents were born & raised in country of origin) - ties are often still strong at 2 generations, unlike say 4 or 5 which is how far removed I am from my English & Irish heritage. I'm sure I feel much more Kiwi than my great grandad did.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby amz » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 13:59

victorsra wrote:The only real problem are players with no ancestry that went to a country already as rugby professionals.


Why?

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 14:08

amz wrote:
victorsra wrote:The only real problem are players with no ancestry that went to a country already as rugby professionals.


Why?


Because they have no familial cultural ties to the country they could represent, and having lived 3 years for one of my periods in Japan, I can say that that is not long enough to be considered to have a vested interest and committment in your new country. 3 years is nothing. Now 5 years is a decent time. If you've lived somewhere for 5 years that indicates to me you have a good committment to that country, and probably a pretty good understanding of it. Infact you've probably qualified for permanent residence and are quite possibly going to stay there permanently.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 14:36

victorsra wrote:The only real problem are players with no ancestry that went to a country already as rugby professionals.



Overall I agree, though guys like Thomas Waldrom who qualified off one grandparent emigrating when they were a toddler stretches the grand parent rule pretty far!

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby amz » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 15:22

YamahaKiwi wrote:
amz wrote:
victorsra wrote:The only real problem are players with no ancestry that went to a country already as rugby professionals.


Why?


Because they have no familial cultural ties to the country they could represent, and having lived 3 years for one of my periods in Japan, I can say that that is not long enough to be considered to have a vested interest and committment in your new country. 3 years is nothing. Now 5 years is a decent time. If you've lived somewhere for 5 years that indicates to me you have a good committment to that country, and probably a pretty good understanding of it. Infact you've probably qualified for permanent residence and are quite possibly going to stay there permanently.


5 years is understanable and I agree, but the whole grand parent thing only help Anglosphere countries. As an example, what committment would have Brad Shields for England although he'd be immediately eligible if he moves. Maitland discovered his Scottish ties only after it was clear he won't play for ABs and there are plenty of examples such as this... What ties? One of my grandpas is from Sibiu area (the only grand parent outside of proper Wallachia) yet I feel no connection at all, even if it's in the same country.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 15:32

Why?

Because it is opportunism, benefiting who can pay more. National teams are not supposed to work as clubs. We already have club rugby to see who has more money winning.

But even guys that moved already as senior rugby professionals can have arguments. For exemple, when the guy is married to a local, has children there.... more than fair that the guy wants to play for the country of his wife/children... This is tricky, but residency criterea still allows opportunism.
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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby 4N » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 15:41

amz wrote:5 years is understanable and I agree, but the whole grand parent thing only help Anglosphere countries. As an example, what committment would have Brad Shields for England although he'd be immediately eligible if he moves. Maitland discovered his Scottish ties only after it was clear he won't play for ABs and there are plenty of examples such as this... What ties? One of my grandpas is from Sibiu area (the only grand parent outside of proper Wallachia) yet I feel no connection at all, even if it's in the same country.


Shields has English parents who have returned to live in the UK, I think he gets a pass.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby amz » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 15:46

4N wrote:Shields has English parents who have returned to live in the UK, I think he gets a pass.


Yet he played his entire career in NZ and until now there was no sign he'd move in Europe. If my parents decide to retire in Transylvania this doesn't mean I have ties with the respective place. And this is just a random example but there are plenty of such examples, especially in Scottish team :)

victorsra wrote:
Why?

Because it is opportunism, benefiting who can pay more. National teams are not supposed to work as clubs. We already have club rugby to see who has more money winning.

But even guys that moved already as senior rugby professionals can have arguments. For exemple, when the guy is married to a local, has children there.... more than fair that the guy wants to play for the country of his wife/children... This is tricky, but residency criterea still allows opportunism.


So looking for a job some place else is opportunism? This means that for example Sheenan married here and applied for citizenship should be entitled to play in 3 yrs and not 5?

Your country was pretty much formed on looking for work and means to live as any other immigration country and migration of peoples never ceased to happen, in fact there are millions who come here to work and find a place to live, see the discussion from Other subjects if you can keep your nose long enough.

Why do you think that human migration ended? The movement in fact is much big than ever was in human history.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 16:12

No dude. A job is not opportunism. Migration is not a problem for me. As I said: there is club rugby for that. National teams must be different. For me they must represent what local rugby produces. People with ancestry are just an allowance because of the concept of nationality. Clubs can hire whoever they want, this is not the point.
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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 16:18

Btw for me it is much more fair an immigrant kid that starts rugby in other country and one day become a national team player that someone with just ancestry that is a product of another rugby nation.

I really think national teams must be the reflex of what a country produced. For any other purpose there is club rugby.
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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby amz » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 16:23

victorsra wrote:I really think national teams must be the reflex of what a country produced. For any other purpose there is club rugby.


I agree with you but professionalization and club rugby it is also what a country produce (not all) so why restrict it as much as possible? What is due to political or economical situation one player have to live and play abroad, such as Zimbabweans for example? There are plenty of circumstances yet the only issue seem to be the 5 years rule which is short sighted.

Ubi bene ibi patria. This happens from millenniums, nothing new under the sun so stop repeating what you like without any other argument that things work separated. Nothing works separated as you like to think.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 17:27

I am not against players/people movements. What i am defending is that national teams and clubs must have different purposes, different concepts. If a national team starts operating as a club, there is no need of them.
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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 20:24

victorsra wrote:I am not against players/people movements. What i am defending is that national teams and clubs must have different purposes, different concepts. If a national team starts operating as a club, there is no need of them.

Simply agree

- - -

In this last weekend there was a sort of multiple duel between France and Italy; our transalpine cousins won 6-2

Men: France v Italy 34 - 17
U20: France v Italy 78 - 12
Women: France v Italy 57 - 0
U18: Italy v France 18 - 5
Universities: France v Italy 25 - 12
Sevens: France v Italy 0 - 3
League women: France v Italy 12 - 4
League U19: France v Italy 20 - 6

*To be true, both the french U18 team and 7s team were a sort of second side.
*The three 7s matches won by Italy against France (in a tri-national stage in Lisbon) ended 36-5, 19-17, 22-5
*The Italy Universities team remains mysterious: there are no news at all about this select, even if the french presented it like a national team

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 22:37

Canalina wrote:
victorsra wrote:I am not against players/people movements. What i am defending is that national teams and clubs must have different purposes, different concepts. If a national team starts operating as a club, there is no need of them.

Simply agree

- - -

In this last weekend there was a sort of multiple duel between France and Italy; our transalpine cousins won 6-2

Men: France v Italy 34 - 17
U20: France v Italy 78 - 12
Women: France v Italy 57 - 0
U18: Italy v France 18 - 5
Universities: France v Italy 25 - 12
Sevens: France v Italy 0 - 3
League women: France v Italy 12 - 4
League U19: France v Italy 20 - 6

*To be true, both the french U18 team and 7s team were a sort of second side.
*The three 7s matches won by Italy against France (in a tri-national stage in Lisbon) ended 36-5, 19-17, 22-5
*The Italy Universities team remains mysterious: there are no news at all about this select, even if the french presented it like a national team


What's with the U20s result :shock: ? Until now they were very competitive.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby dwpeate » Mon, 26 Feb 2018, 22:42

Looking at the other France results, they are looking very strong...

France 34-24 Ireland
Scotland 19-69 France
France 78-12 Italy

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 18:41

Zebre v Dragons, april 14, will be played in L'Aquila, middle of Italy in the mountains east of Rome.
Good move, the city deserves that because of its rugby passion.
Would be great if one of the two italian franchises had the basis in the South, but it's not easy to find a city with enough rugby sponsors and enough fans

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