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The future of Italian Rugby

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 09 Aug 2019, 11:35

So what is the sense behind this? The goalline-dropout for a held-up makes at least a bit of sense. If you defended great, held the opposition up in your in-goal and all you get as an opposition scrum as a "reward", might be a thing to consider. But honestly I don't see reason enough too change anything.

The kick is bad for spectators, as they'll get confused who has the line-out etc. Keep it simple and that's not simple at all.

If they would put half the efforts of law changes into true international PR, rugby would gain way more from that.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Fri, 09 Aug 2019, 16:26

RugbyLiebe wrote:So what is the sense behind this?

From what I've read the main meaning of this experimental rule is to force the squads to defend the touchlines with more men; so more depth in squad's disposition, so less men in defense line, so more open game and less tackles, so less injuries (at least as a hope).
I understand this, but I still can't forget that conquer 70 meters of field with a big, precise kick, keeping the control of the ball, seems like killing the game. You fight like a beast for four minutes in a row in rucks and pick&go to conquer two meters of field, than a fellow of you or an opponent take the ball and conquer fifty meters with a well addressed kick. It's disarmingly.
It has anyway to be said that (if I'm not wrong) this rule was part of a pack of new rules to be experimented in Australia; if they chose to adopt in Italy only this rule and not the other rules it could mean that they've ponderate the whole thing and that this rule offered some good effects down under

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby 4N » Mon, 19 Aug 2019, 17:38

O’Shea talking a possible upset vs South Africa. Gotta like the confidence.

https://m.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springbok ... p-20190819

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Tue, 20 Aug 2019, 04:35

I think every italian coach before a RWC said the same thing: "I'm pretty confident we'll go through the quarterfinals!" : )

Side news: just a little thing that came to my mind, it seems there are not chinese-roots players in Italian championship, intending all the categories; at least I've never heard about them. This happens despite the chinese colony in Italy is the fourth by greatness behind those of Romania, Albania and Morocco. There are around 290,000 chinese in Italy (men+women). I've read in the line-ups of the minor category several names of albanian and romanian players, probably moroccan too, but I don't remember to have never read a chinese surname. This just to confirm that rugby seems still not in the deep heart of chinese people. Maybe it depends also by the fact that they use to be a closed community but I'm anyway sure that there are many chinese kids playing other sports like soccer of volleyball

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Tue, 20 Aug 2019, 10:25

4N wrote:O’Shea talking a possible upset vs South Africa. Gotta like the confidence.

https://m.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springbok ... p-20190819


Is Wayne Smith assisting O'Shea for the RWC?

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby 4N » Tue, 20 Aug 2019, 11:33

Yeah in a consultant role.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 20 Aug 2019, 11:45

I'll give O'Shea credit for talking the teams chances up. The thing in Italy's favour is they are not expected to beat either SA or NZ, so they have zero pressure on them. Whoever loses that opening game between SA and NZ is going to go into their game against Italy desperate to win, and desperation can cause some teams to slip up.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Tue, 20 Aug 2019, 12:15

4N wrote:Yeah in a consultant role.


That's what I'd heard. I wouldn't take any team lightly that has his input, especially since I now think he will have been helping for a while (Sure he was with the team in the 6N) so probably his knowledge is starting to filter through.

I'm hoping Italy will surprise the Boks in particular in Shizuoka with a tough game (I'm not saying I think Italy's going to win but). While the Boks give 110% v the ABs, I think that sometimes they don't always bring it to some of the games v other opponents, whereas the ABs will be focused to try and put a hurt on anyone. Despite the fact they've come back and are actually my pick to win the RWC, and despite the loss to Japan in 2015 which should be a lesson learnt, I still think compared to the ABs, they are the more vulnerable of the two teams to getting into an arm wrestle with Italy, and that's purely from a focus and consistency view. I think it's quite possible they could beat the ABs and then relax and get a surprise hard game with Italy because they don't bring the same drive and intensity as they did v ABs).

Having said that, despite the 36-0 win v Australia, this is the least settled ABs squad to an RWC that I've seen for a long time. I think there are vulnerabilities that there weren't in 2015 (I think that clearly showed in a poor last 5mins v Boks where the team was unable to close out the win that recent AB teams would've had the nous to do) so maybe if Italy probes and brings the right mental attitude to the game and the ABs are a bit out of sorts, we could see a similar result to 1991.

I'd be very surprised if Wayne Smith didn't recuse himself from assisting when it comes to the game v ABs.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 20 Aug 2019, 12:38

The All Black look vulnerable. That said, the Italians have never come close to threatening the All Blacks, at least not since the 91 world cup. It's shocking to me how consistent they are in leaking 50, 60, 70 points against New Zealand. They've come close to beating Australia and England on several occasions, beaten all other 6 Nations teams, South Africa and Argentina. And yet, somehow, the closest they've come in the last 10 years to beating the AB's in a 14 point loss in Manila. It's almost unbelievable how little improvement there's been against NZ. Even Japan has shown progress going from 145-17 24 years ago to 69-31 last year.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby rey200 » Tue, 20 Aug 2019, 13:17

Both Italy and SA resp. NZ will have a decent turnaround time before playing each other. Italy's draw has been somewhat ambivalent... I think it is both bad and good. It would be HUGE surprise if they make the semis. But automatic qualification should be rather easy.
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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 07:40

Not good news: this friday's evening match between France and Italy, supposed to be the first ever (?) rugby match shown in Italy in prime time on a main channel, has been moved from Rai Due (the second national main channel) to Rai Sport (the much less followed sport channel of the state television).
I've seen that this week's France's and Lelos' test matches will be shown live on prime time by TF1 and 1TvGe: rugby is able to conquer the main tv spot in France and Georgia, still not in Italy

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby dropkick » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 12:05

thatrugbyguy wrote:The All Black look vulnerable. That said, the Italians have never come close to threatening the All Blacks, at least not since the 91 world cup. It's shocking to me how consistent they are in leaking 50, 60, 70 points against New Zealand. They've come close to beating Australia and England on several occasions, beaten all other 6 Nations teams, South Africa and Argentina. And yet, somehow, the closest they've come in the last 10 years to beating the AB's in a 14 point loss in Manila. It's almost unbelievable how little improvement there's been against NZ. Even Japan has shown progress going from 145-17 24 years ago to 69-31 last year.



I think they came close about (guessing) 8 years ago. They had NZ in the scrum and on the NZ line in rainy conditions but were robbed by the ref if I remember correctly.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby grande » Tue, 27 Aug 2019, 21:47

dropkick wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:The All Black look vulnerable. That said, the Italians have never come close to threatening the All Blacks, at least not since the 91 world cup. It's shocking to me how consistent they are in leaking 50, 60, 70 points against New Zealand. They've come close to beating Australia and England on several occasions, beaten all other 6 Nations teams, South Africa and Argentina. And yet, somehow, the closest they've come in the last 10 years to beating the AB's in a 14 point loss in Manila. It's almost unbelievable how little improvement there's been against NZ. Even Japan has shown progress going from 145-17 24 years ago to 69-31 last year.



I think they came close about (guessing) 8 years ago. They had NZ in the scrum and on the NZ line in rainy conditions but were robbed by the ref if I remember correctly.


The closest score between the two happened in 1991: New Zealand 31-21 Italy.

The closest score in the professional era (which I assume is the one youre thinking of) was 14 Nov 2009: Italy 6-20 New Zealand. Still two converted tries away; Not what I'd call super close.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 02:32

That was the game in Milan. The Italians were camped inside the All Black's 22 for the last 15 mins of the game and couldn't score anything. It was the best they've played against the All Blacks that I've seen, and yet they couldn't score the points when they needed.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby 4N » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 02:43

That was a memorable game. The atmosphere reminded me of All Blacks vs Pumas at River Plate in 2001. The Azzurri really put the NZ scrum under pressure that day.


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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 04:54

If I recall correctly there were many complaints by italian fans because the referee didn't aware a penalty try despite the long pressure and a series of NZ infringements. "If it was the opposite, with the AB pressing us on our try line for half a time, they would have been awarded with three penalty tries!", was more or less the tone of the comments.
Surely the best Italy performance vs New Zealand, even better that that 21-31 in the 1991 World Cup

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 28 Aug 2019, 05:07

They were robbed of a penalty try at least once. Same thing happened to Tonga against NZ at the world cup. They were demolishing the All Black scrum over and over again and the referee never reward them for it. They should play more matches at San Siro, great venue.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Figaro » Thu, 29 Aug 2019, 09:32

Despite the ABs' (relative) crisis I can't see Italy coming close to them. SA are probably more vulnerable.

On a related note I think both NZ and SA will be vulnerable in the knockout stages, especially to teams from the tougher pools C and D, who will have gone through much harder games to reach that point. After strolling through Canada and Namibia, NZ/SA risk being undercooked by comparison

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Thu, 29 Aug 2019, 09:57

Figaro wrote:Despite the ABs' (relative) crisis ...

Very relative :)

For we italian fans it's a bit a frustrating situation: we can't imagine (or at least I can't imagine) a victory against NZ and Saf and we can't imagine (no arrogance intended) a loss against Namibia and Canada, so we go into the RWC with no particular hopes or fears. Just the hope to see good performances and good-looking tries

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby vino_93 » Fri, 30 Aug 2019, 06:21

Canalina wrote:Not good news: this friday's evening match between France and Italy, supposed to be the first ever (?) rugby match shown in Italy in prime time on a main channel, has been moved from Rai Due (the second national main channel) to Rai Sport (the much less followed sport channel of the state television).
I've seen that this week's France's and Lelos' test matches will be shown live on prime time by TF1 and 1TvGe: rugby is able to conquer the main tv spot in France and Georgia, still not in Italy


Nothing unusual here !

For free in France you have :

All games from 6 Nations (France 2)
6 Nations U20 - games of France (France 4)
Women's 6 Nations - games of France (France 2 and France 4)
Autumn tests - games of France (France 2)
Autumn tests - games of French barbarians (L'equipe) and sometimes some other tests (real barbarians mostly, sometimes Japan)
1 game of Champions Cup per week (France 2)
1 game of challenge cup per week (France 4)
Finale of Pro D2 (France 3)
Finale of Top 14 (France 2)
Some games of Pro D2 (regional France 3)
Some tests - Super series (France women's) - (France 2)

And so RWC. This year, all games will be shown for free on TF1 and TMC. Not always the case. Last one, mostly on TF1 and all games on replay. (Live on Canal+ for those not shown by TF1)
2011 split between TF1 and France 2.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby Canalina » Fri, 30 Aug 2019, 18:28

vino_93 wrote:Nothing unusual here !

For free in France you have :

All games from 6 Nations (France 2)
6 Nations U20 - games of France (France 4)
Women's 6 Nations - games of France (France 2 and France 4)
Autumn tests - games of France (France 2)
Autumn tests - games of French barbarians (L'equipe) and sometimes some other tests (real barbarians mostly, sometimes Japan)
1 game of Champions Cup per week (France 2)
1 game of challenge cup per week (France 4)
Finale of Pro D2 (France 3)
Finale of Top 14 (France 2)
Some games of Pro D2 (regional France 3)
Some tests - Super series (France women's) - (France 2)

And so RWC. This year, all games will be shown for free on TF1 and TMC. Not always the case. Last one, mostly on TF1 and all games on replay. (Live on Canal+ for those not shown by TF1)
2011 split between TF1 and France 2.

So insensitive! It's a very rude thing to say to a poor italian fan :)

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 01 Sep 2019, 05:38

grande wrote:
dropkick wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:The All Black look vulnerable. That said, the Italians have never come close to threatening the All Blacks, at least not since the 91 world cup. It's shocking to me how consistent they are in leaking 50, 60, 70 points against New Zealand. They've come close to beating Australia and England on several occasions, beaten all other 6 Nations teams, South Africa and Argentina. And yet, somehow, the closest they've come in the last 10 years to beating the AB's in a 14 point loss in Manila. It's almost unbelievable how little improvement there's been against NZ. Even Japan has shown progress going from 145-17 24 years ago to 69-31 last year.



I think they came close about (guessing) 8 years ago. They had NZ in the scrum and on the NZ line in rainy conditions but were robbed by the ref if I remember correctly.


The closest score between the two happened in 1991: New Zealand 31-21 Italy.

The closest score in the professional era (which I assume is the one youre thinking of) was 14 Nov 2009: Italy 6-20 New Zealand. Still two converted tries away; Not what I'd call super close.


Yeah, and the scrum attack came in the last mins of the game so would've had no effect on the result. There was apparently a non-test game in 1978 with I think a score of 18-12. Also in the pro era the last time Italy toured NZ a very forgettable game in Christchurch that Italy were competitive in. But the point is that the vast majority of games ITA v NZL have been much more lop-sided than RSA-ITA. NZL tends to put more of a hurt on lower level teams than RSA is able to do. That's a focus thing. RSA get hugely up for the big battles but can struggle when they play against other teams they expect to coast over. Case in point the return game v Pumas recently. Having just torched the Pumas in Argentina they almost got tipped up in the return game at home a week later. That shouldn't have happened. That's where maybe there is a little glimmer for Italy. Emphasis on the little!

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 01 Sep 2019, 05:41

thatrugbyguy wrote:That was the game in Milan. The Italians were camped inside the All Black's 22 for the last 15 mins of the game and couldn't score anything. It was the best they've played against the All Blacks that I've seen, and yet they couldn't score the points when they needed.


I still think 1991 was the best they've played against us. In 2009 they were competitive up front and put us under pressure but the attack was very one dimensional and we were only troubled at the scrum. If Italy had been able to offer more in attack the game result would've been a lot more closer.

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 01 Sep 2019, 05:50

thatrugbyguy wrote:They were robbed of a penalty try at least once. Same thing happened to Tonga against NZ at the world cup. They were demolishing the All Black scrum over and over again and the referee never reward them for it. They should play more matches at San Siro, great venue.


Ref was Australia's Stu Dickenson ;) But yeah it was def a penalty try. And I hated how henry was suggesting after the game the Italian props were cheating. It was total sour grapes stuff. I lost a bit of respect for Henry (TBH I've never been a huge fan). Tonga had some good first half scrums but in the 2nd half the ABs dominated the game. The real officiating problem I had in that game was where the ABs were lucky was Ben Smith not getting carded for a dangerous tackle.

The game in San Siro, quality-wise was pretty poor. Italy got the better of an experimental ABs lineup up front but couldn't do anything with it while the ABs struggled for possession and territory and got by off a couple of flashes of their quality. Honestly Fiji-Tonga yesterday was better. but I will say for atmosphere and passion of the home crowd it's one of the games with the best atmosphere I've ever been too. So...game pretty crap, crowd brilliant! :lol: And yes I would definitely go back to the San Siro for another game. And for another thing, it's got no running track around it so it's a far better viewing experience than the bloody Rome Stadio Olimpico Stadium :x

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Re: The future of Italian Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 01 Sep 2019, 06:02

Figaro wrote:Despite the ABs' (relative) crisis I can't see Italy coming close to them. SA are probably more vulnerable.

On a related note I think both NZ and SA will be vulnerable in the knockout stages, especially to teams from the tougher pools C and D, who will have gone through much harder games to reach that point. After strolling through Canada and Namibia, NZ/SA risk being undercooked by comparison


Agree, that's why I hate our Pool B this time. Pool C with physical GEO and TON gave us a good workout in 2015, along with a major test v Pumas. The 2nd half v TON in our last pool game showed we were ready for the Quarters. This time we've still got the major test but only one possible workout (thank goodness that is the last game of the pool rounds for us). Really, one of Canada and Namibia needed to be in another pool, and we had another team that at least would give us a hard, physical match. A PI team or the USA maybe.

Getting back to Italy - that also would've been better for Italy in that they'd have some serious opposition for 3rd place like Canalina said.

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