Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

RWC 2019 Qualifying

Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 14 Mar 2017, 09:56

thatrugbyguy wrote:Rugby having a tiered structure also complicate things. There's only been one time in all RWC history most T1 nations had to qualify, and that was for RWC 1999. That format was rejected again when NZ baulked at the idea of having to qualify after their 4th place finish in 1999.


So they changed it to the Quarterfinalists, which lead to some more t1-t2-games. Anybody know why they extended the auto-qualifiers from that point? Seems like such an incredible bad idea from today's viewpoint.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 2802
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 14 Mar 2017, 10:31

Because it became apparent after the 2003 world cup when they changed the format to 4 groups of 5 teams that there was a lot of meaningless games with no baring on the tournament. The logic in expanding the auto qualifiers was to give all teams something to play for.

Posts: 301
Joined: Thu, 28 Jul 2016, 19:33
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Tue, 14 Mar 2017, 11:55

I'd imagine cricket qualification for the One Day World Cup will be similar to rugby RugbyLiebe. There is no way the likes of India and England have to play continental "minnows" to qualify.

Posts: 1139
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 14 Mar 2017, 12:00

Cricket is in an even worse shape than rugby, considering they changed their World Cup format because they couldn't afford seeing minnows like Ireland perform better than their top teams in last World Cup...

Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 14 Mar 2017, 12:09

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:I'd imagine cricket qualification for the One Day World Cup will be similar to rugby RugbyLiebe. There is no way the likes of India and England have to play continental "minnows" to qualify.


Not really as you can have cricket matches two or three days in a row. In fact they played every other day in the 2014 Qualifier according to wikipedia (wouldn't know a thing about cricket otherwise :D ). So actually quite similiar to the tournament structure of all the others sports (apart from the even more closed shop).
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Tue, 14 Mar 2017, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 409
Joined: Thu, 15 Dec 2016, 11:18
National Flag:
KenyaKenya

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Neptune » Tue, 14 Mar 2017, 12:38

The problem with World Rugby is that they want to have their cake and eat it.
Its either you opt for 12 automatic qualifiers and create room for another 12 to qualify or leave the status quo of 20 teams and do away with the automatic qualification.

User avatar
Posts: 719
Joined: Thu, 17 Jul 2014, 10:29
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Horsehead » Tue, 14 Mar 2017, 13:50

Armchair Fan wrote:Cricket is in an even worse shape than rugby, considering they changed their World Cup format because they couldn't afford seeing minnows like Ireland perform better than their top teams in last World Cup...


Cricket WCQ was bad enough originally when it was a 14 team world cup. The 10 test playing nations would qualify automatically and would be joined by 4 minnows who go through the qualification process.

They have now dropped it to a 10 team world cup (because the major nations all want to play each other) so the 8 top ranked test playing nations qualify automatically and the other 2 play off with some minnows for the other 2 places. Terrible

Posts: 409
Joined: Thu, 15 Dec 2016, 11:18
National Flag:
KenyaKenya

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Neptune » Tue, 14 Mar 2017, 14:15

Horsehead wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:Cricket is in an even worse shape than rugby, considering they changed their World Cup format because they couldn't afford seeing minnows like Ireland perform better than their top teams in last World Cup...


Cricket WCQ was bad enough originally when it was a 14 team world cup. The 10 test playing nations would qualify automatically and would be joined by 4 minnows who go through the qualification process.

They have now dropped it to a 10 team world cup (because the major nations all want to play each other) so the 8 top ranked test playing nations qualify automatically and the other 2 play off with some minnows for the other 2 places. Terrible


Funny enough, Cricket is the third most popular game in the world, yet only 10 teams participate in their world cup. I guess it's bcoz of India's large population ,but yet again, the ICC should practice inclusion not exclusion. They need to increase the teams rather than reducing.

Posts: 2802
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 14 Mar 2017, 14:18

For all the crap World Rugby gets the International Cricket Council (ICC) is 100 times worse when it comes to developing nations. There's at least a decent attempt being made by World Rugby to expand the game whilst not trying to upset the status quo. The ICC has reduced its World Cup from 16 in 2007 to 10 in 2019.

For those not aware there are 10 test playing nations in cricket, these are full members of the ICC who play each other in both 5-Day cricket and One Day cricket. These are the cricket T1's. The next batch of developing nations are given what's called 'One Day' status, in that they are only allowed to play One Day cricket against the full ICC member, but not 5-Day cricket against them. They are allowed to accrue world rankings points. There are two problems, 1) The cricket T1's won't play them meaning they can't improve their ranking, 2) There are only two teams who have been granted that status, making it nothing more than a token gesture. These two teams are essentially the T2's of cricket. The next level below is more or less just filled with cricket's third tier, who have nothing more than 'Associate status', meaning they pretty much just play amongst themselves. Up until recently they had a chance to qualify for the World Cup. Between 4-6 qualifying places were on offer. But now the ICC has basically said to their T2 and T3 nations 'we don't want you', hence the reduction of their World Cup to 10 teams for the next two tournaments.

The Top 8 teams in the world rankings qualify for the cricket world cup automatically, the final two places will come from a qualifying tournament featuring teams ranked 9-12, plus 4 third tier qualifiers. The problem? Teams ranked 9 and 10 will have played far more high level matches against better opposition, meaning they've got a significant advantage over the rest of the teams. In theory the cricket T2's and T3's can still qualify for the world cup if they were to move up in the world rankings, but the problem is they can't do that unless the they play higher ranked opponents, and the Top 10 teams don't want to play them and are under no obligation to do so.

And it all comes down to India playing as many matches as possible, because that's where most of the ICC cash flow comes from. It all stems from the 2007 Cricket World Cup where Ireland and Bangladesh had the nerve to eliminate India and Pakistan after only 3 group matches in what was a 16 team tournament. The ICC lost a boat load of money as Indian viewers switched off and thousands of fans left earlier than what was expected. So the subsequent 2011 and 2015 World Cups were changed so that India would play at a minimum 6 groups matches, that has been increased to 9 for the 2019 and 2023 tournaments where format is now one big group of 10 teams playing each other once over a 6 week period.

The thing is cricket is a funny sport, it's not like rugby where you can play a bad game and still edge out a win, a bad day in cricket and even a lower ranked team can come out with an unexpected win - and that's what scares the top nations. Ireland beat England a few years ago and reports after the match seemed to indicate that the English players thought losing to Ireland was beneath them. That's the attitude the crickets T2's and T3's have to face. So, for all the drama around rugby and its international scene, which everyone agrees needs significant improvement, spare a thought for those nations playing cricket who have been all but abandoned by their international governing body. Think about this. In 2003 Kenya had 'One Day' status and made it to the semi-finals of the world cup. The ICC did nothing then to keep that momentum going and 14 years later they are languishing in one of the lower divisions.

Posts: 409
Joined: Thu, 15 Dec 2016, 11:18
National Flag:
KenyaKenya

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Neptune » Tue, 14 Mar 2017, 14:30

thatrugbyguy wrote:For all the crap World Rugby gets the International Cricket Council (ICC) is 100 times worse when it comes to developing nations. There's at least a decent attempt being made by World Rugby to expand the game whilst not trying to upset the status quo. The ICC has reduced its World Cup from 16 in 2007 to 10 in 2019.

For those not aware there are 10 test playing nations in cricket, these are full members of the ICC who play each other in both 5-Day cricket and One Day cricket. These are the cricket T1's. The next batch of developing nations are given what's called 'One Day' status, in that they are only allowed to play One Day cricket against the full ICC member, but not 5-Day cricket against them. They are allowed to accrue world rankings points. There are two problems, 1) The cricket T1's won't play them meaning they can't improve their ranking, 2) There are only two teams who have been granted that status, making it nothing more than a token gesture. These two teams are essentially the T2's of cricket. The next level below is more or less just filled with cricket's third tier, who have nothing more than 'Associate status', meaning they pretty much just play amongst themselves. Up until recently they had a chance to qualify for the World Cup. Between 4-6 qualifying places were on offer. But now the ICC has basically said to their T2 and T3 nations 'we don't want you', hence the reduction of their World Cup to 10 teams for the next two tournaments.

The Top 8 teams in the world rankings qualify for the cricket world cup automatically, the final two places will come from a qualifying tournament featuring teams ranked 9-12, plus 4 third tier qualifiers. The problem? Teams ranked 9 and 10 will have played far more high level matches against better opposition, meaning they've got a significant advantage over the rest of the teams. In theory the cricket T2's and T3's can still qualify for the world cup if they were to move up in the world rankings, but the problem is they can't do that unless the they play higher ranked opponents, and the Top 10 teams don't want to play them and are under no obligation to do so.

And it all comes down to India playing as many matches as possible, because that's where most of the ICC cash flow comes from. It all stems from the 2007 Cricket World Cup where Ireland and Bangladesh had the nerve to eliminate India and Pakistan after only 3 group matches in what was a 16 team tournament. The ICC lost a boat load of money as Indian viewers switched off and thousands of fans left earlier than what was expected. So the subsequent 2011 and 2015 World Cups were changed so that India would play at a minimum 6 groups matches, that has been increased to 9 for the 2019 and 2023 tournaments where format is now one big group of 10 teams playing each other once over a 6 week period.

The thing is cricket is a funny sport, it's not like rugby where you can play a bad game and still edge out a win, a bad day in cricket and even a lower ranked team can come out with an unexpected win - and that's what scares the top nations. Ireland beat England a few years ago and reports after the match seemed to indicate that the English players thought losing to Ireland was beneath them. That's the attitude the crickets T2's and T3's have to face. So, for all the drama around rugby and its international scene, which everyone agrees needs significant improvement, spare a thought for those nations playing cricket who have been all but abandoned by their international governing body. Think about this. In 2003 Kenya had 'One Day' status and made it to the semi-finals of the world cup. The ICC did nothing then to keep that momentum going and 14 years later they are languishing in one of the lower divisions.


Very true thatrugbyguy, we even hosted the Cricket world cup in 2003, and we were the most pampered associate nation awaiting test nation status. Until a boadroom decision was made by the ICC not to give Kenya test status. Reasons, best known to them. Cricket which was mostly associated with the Hindu and Indian community in Kenya, had now a lot of popularity and was spreading like wildfire, until the ICC decided to stab us in the back and prevent us from reaching elite status. To this day, Cricket has been abandoned in schools and there is no school cricket. A few private schools play it, but that's as far as it goes. School rugby and club rugby is now what most people concentrate on, due to the popularity of the 7s team on the World rugby 7s circuit.

Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 06:51

So all European teams outside of the Rugby Europe Championship apart from Portugal and the potential winner of the divisions under the Trophy are eliminated.
From the Rugby Europe Trophy the Netherlands, Poland, Switzerland, Moldova and the Ukraine are eliminated.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 187
Joined: Sun, 31 Aug 2014, 11:36
National Flag:
PakistanPakistan

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby jservuk » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 08:37

Regarding cricket - the same 8 countries playing each other several times a year in various formats - DULL.

Cricket's most celebrated trophy is arguably The Ashes - that mega global event that has just 2 participants.

Of course the enormous popularity of cricket in India make it a player in term of TV numbers, but as a global sport it is way behind Rugby Union.

Like Rugby, it is another Commonwealth sport. But what Rugby has is the likes of France and Argentina, strong teams from outside the traditional nations who seem to have a missionary zeal.

Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 16:46

RugbyLiebe wrote:So all European teams outside of the Rugby Europe Championship apart from Portugal and the potential winner of the divisions under the Trophy are eliminated.
From the Rugby Europe Trophy the Netherlands, Poland, Switzerland, Moldova and the Ukraine are eliminated.


I am honestly confused. Hope somebody can help me here by posting the official and recent rules. If Georgia won the championship today, the Netherlands is still not eliminated.

And if they changed the rules why the f... did they do that.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 20
Joined: Sat, 11 Feb 2017, 01:16
National Flag:
St Pierre & MiquelonSt Pierre & Miquelon

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby evil santa » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 17:22

RugbyLiebe wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:So all European teams outside of the Rugby Europe Championship apart from Portugal and the potential winner of the divisions under the Trophy are eliminated.
From the Rugby Europe Trophy the Netherlands, Poland, Switzerland, Moldova and the Ukraine are eliminated.


I am honestly confused. Hope somebody can help me here by posting the official and recent rules. If Georgia won the championship today, the Netherlands is still not eliminated.

And if they changed the rules why the f... did they do that.

I do not see how elimination of the Netherlands depends on who won the Championship. Portugal won the Trophy, thus eliminating all other teams in Trophy division.
And for rules you can look at this post viewtopic.php?f=3&t=794&start=250#p58805

Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 18:08

evil santa wrote:I do not see how elimination of the Netherlands depends on who won the Championship. Portugal won the Trophy, thus eliminating all other teams in Trophy division.
And for rules you can look at this post viewtopic.php?f=3&t=794&start=250#p58805


What you didn't see is that both teams have just played 4 games out of 5. If Georgia was champion the same rule would be applied and Netherlands weren't eliminated (yet). Portugal plays Poland in April. So do the Netherlands.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 20
Joined: Sat, 11 Feb 2017, 01:16
National Flag:
St Pierre & MiquelonSt Pierre & Miquelon

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby evil santa » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 19:17

RugbyLiebe wrote:What you didn't see is that both teams have just played 4 games out of 5. If Georgia was champion the same rule would be applied and Netherlands weren't eliminated (yet). Portugal plays Poland in April. So do the Netherlands.

Oh, then you could put your question a little bit clearer on what rules do you mean. Although it would only postpone official elimination of Holland, as Portugal has significant advantage in almost all stats, and it's very unlikely they could loose a point in Ukraine.

Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 21:12

Same rules would off course apply to the RET, if Georgia would have been the winner of the REC. Off course the Dutch chances wee minor, but a chance is not eliminated.

It is over now, as Romania was declared the winner of the REC. Hence due to the clarification of this rule, which made Romania the winner, the Netherlands are officially eliminated as the can't win the RET anymore.

This was always about theoretical chances. But a lack of analysing this scenarios is funwise why RE made this huge mistake today.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 140
Joined: Wed, 16 Apr 2014, 23:39
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby antlat » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 01:21

So now that the Europe Championship has finished, the RWC table is as follows,

1. Romania 3W 0D 1L 15Pts
2. Spain 3W 0D 1L 13Pts
3. Russia 2W 0D 2L 9Pts
4. Germany 2W 0D 2L 8Pts
5. Belgium 0W 0D 4L 2Pts

As Portugal has won Rugby Europe Trophy, they will now be in a promotion play -off against Belgium.

Portugal has also progressed to the RWC Qualifying play-off against the winner of Conference 1 vs Conference 2 Play-off.

If Belgium is defeated by Portugal and relegated to Rugby Europe Trophy, then their results will no longer count and the RWC qualifying table is as follows,

1. Romania 2W 0D 1L 10Pts
2. Spain 2W 0D 1L 8Pts
3. Russia 1W 0D 2L 5Pts
4. Germany 1W 0D 2L 4Pts
In this situation only matches involving the four nations in above table will count towards World Cup Qualification for 2017/2018 European Championship.
Portugal matches will not count as they have already qualified for the RWC qualifying play-offs by winning 2016/2017 Rugby Europe Trophy.

Posts: 1139
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 13:11

Romania has the direct qualifying berth in the bag. If Belgium stays, they will have three games at home where to cumulate enough bonus points so to compensate an improbable new defeat. And if Belgium loses the play-off, beating confortably Russia and Germany and a losing bonus in Spain could be more than enough.

Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 13:18

I am quite surprised that actually every team has it in their own hands to qualify (at least through the repechage). Somehow thought Germany was more behind. Romania should go through as expected before the REC started.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 1139
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 13:20

Yeah, but Romania and Spain will be on pole position for both places. For us, winning a single game if Belgium gets relegated or two if they stay could be enough to enter repechage too, pending on losing bonus points and margins.

Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 13:34

Armchair Fan wrote:Yeah, but Romania and Spain will be on pole position for both places. For us, winning a single game if Belgium gets relegated or two if they stay could be enough to enter repechage too, pending on losing bonus points and margins.


Lets ignore Romania and assume they win the rest with denying everyone else a bonus point. If any of Spain, Russia and Germany win two matches against the other two teams, the chances are high that they are through. 100% for Spain, still great chances for Russia (there Spain could even win a bonus point against Romania) and average chances for Germany.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 192
Joined: Fri, 15 Aug 2014, 13:57

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Raven » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 13:52

I haven't done the heavy thinking here but if Belgium goes down (unlikely judging by what they have shown in the tournament) the difference between Rumania and Germany would be of 6 points. It will come down to what team will both sides present on that day and then anything can happen... Spain will get the Romanians home with only a 2pt difference.

Furthermore, Portugal playing home to Germany is not the same as Portugal playing home v Spain, neighbors will want to win the Iberian derby and we know Spain has had a history of chockes before ...

I don't like futurology but I would say things are still quite open...

Posts: 1139
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 14:46

Even if Spain beats Romania next year (which isn't easy at all according to historic records), Romania can easily earn bonus points in all their games: a losing one in Spain and attacking in all their home games. To me, they have already booked their tickets to Japan.

Regarding the play-off against Portugal, according to Rugby Europe documents it would take place at home of the Championship side, not in Portugal. Still a danger since it takes place in May and player release will be a headache for all involved sides, but easier for Spain, Germany or Russia.

Posts: 192
Joined: Fri, 15 Aug 2014, 13:57

Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Raven » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 15:16

Armchair Fan wrote:Even if Spain beats Romania next year (which isn't easy at all according to historic records), Romania can easily earn bonus points in all their games: a losing one in Spain and attacking in all their home games. To me, they have already booked their tickets to Japan.

Regarding the play-off against Portugal, according to Rugby Europe documents it would take place at home of the Championship side, not in Portugal. Still a danger since it takes place in May and player release will be a headache for all involved sides, but easier for Spain, Germany or Russia.


I think my message was a bit of a mix; I meant a hypothetical scenario if Belgium came down and Portugal got promoted in May.

I know the play-off is set for May and in Belgium; getting the players that play overseas might be difficult for both sides, but I guess as Portugal has been selecting domestic players it shouldn´t be much of an issue.

What I meant with the home and away advantage is that (I believe) if Portugal makes it through, then they will play the Home games Belgium played away this tournament right? so Germany & Spain would be in Portugal.

Sorry I might be a bit confusing to read today!

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], MSNbot Media and 2 guests