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Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

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Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby Hansgrohe » Thu, 18 Feb 2016, 00:39

There is a previous thread about this, but I thought we could create a new one with some revisions:
-Argentina is always a T1. Their status is so murky though; they've beaten strong teams for a long time, I'm not sure of their "official" T1 entrance date.
-Italy is not a T1 until 2000. Their results previously though will be counted as T2; their victories over T1s in the 90s are included.
-A graph chart :)
*= "XV" team; questionable status

Image

1920s -
USA 8 - 0 France (09/05/1920)*
USA 17 -3 France (05/18/1924)
Germany 17-16 France (05/15/1927)

1930s
Germany 3 -0 France (03/27/1938)

1940s
Rhodesia 10-8 New Zealand (07/27/1949)

1950s
Fiji 17-15 Australia (08/09/1952)
Fiji 18-16 Australia (06/26/1954)

1960s
Romania 11-5 France (06/05/1960)
Romania 3-0 France (11/11/1962)
Romania 15-14 France (12/01/1968)
Notes: Japan beat a Junior ABs side this decade, but I can't find any record of the NZ line-up.

1970s
Tonga 16-11 Australia (06/30/1973)
Romania 15-10 France (10/13/1974)
Romania 15-12 France (11/14/1976)
Fiji 25-21 British & Irish Lions (08/16/1977)*
Italy 19-6 Argentina (10/24/1978)
*Including this, as the Lions are an official test-status side made up of T1 unions

1980s
Romania 15-0 France (11/23/1980)
Romania 13-9 France (10/31/1982)
Romania 24-6 Wales (11/12/1983)
Romania 28-22 Scotland (05/12/1984)
Fiji 28-9 Argentina (05/24/1987)
Romania 15-9 Wales (12/10/1988)
Japan 28-24 Scotland (05/24/1989)*

1990s
Canada 15-6 Argentina (03/30/1990)
Romania 12-6 France (05/24/1990)
Canada 19-15 Argentina (06/16/1990)
Canada 24-19 Scotland* (05/25/1991)
Namibia 15-6 Ireland (07/20/1991)
Namibia 26-15 Ireland (07/27/1991)
Romania 18-12 Scotland (08/31/1991)
Samoa 16-13 Wales (10/06/1991)
Samoa 35-12 Argentina (10/13/1991)
Canada 15-12 England (05/29/1993)*
Canada 26-24 Wales (11/10/1993)
Italy 16-9 France (11/11/1993)*
Canada 18-16 France (06/04/1994)
Samoa 34-9 Wales (06/25/1994)
Italy 22-12 Ireland (05/06/1995)
Italy 31-25 Argentina (06/04/1995)
Samoa 40-25 Ireland (11/12/1996)
Italy 37-29 Ireland (01/04/1997)
Italy 40-32 France (03/22/1997)
Italy 37-22 Ireland (12/20/1997)
Italy 25-21 Scotland (01/24/1998)
Fiji 51-26 Scotland (05/26/1998)
Japan 44-29 Argentina (09/15/1998)
Italy 23-19 Argentina (11/07/1998)
Tonga 20-16 France (06/16/1999)
Samoa 38-31 Wales (10/14/1999)
Notes: Rowan (RIP) listed a 1991 Romanian victory over Wales, but I couldn't find anything for this. There are reports that Italy beat an England "XV" side in the early 90s, and Namibia a Scotland "A" side in the 90s as well. Any information on these games would be appreciated.

2000s
Samoa 43-24 Italy (07/08/2000)
Fiji 43-9 Italy (07/15/2000)
Canada 22-17 Italy (11/11/2000)
Samoa 17-9 Italy (11/24/2001)
Canada 26-23 Scotland (06/15/2002)
Romania 25-24 Italy (06/26/2004)
Canada 22-15 Argentina (07/02/2005)
Samoa 28-12 Argentina (12/03/2005)
Fiji 29-18 Italy (06/17/2006)
Fiji 38-34 Wales (09/29/2007)
Pacific Islanders 25-17 Italy (11/22/2008)

2010s
Samoa 32-23 Australia (07/17/2011)
Tonga 19-14 France (10/01/2011)
Samoa 26-19 Wales (11/16/2012)
Tonga 21-15 Scotland (11/24/2012)
Samoa 27-17 Scotland (06/08/2013)
Samoa 39-10 Italy (06/15/2013)
Japan 23-8 Wales (06/15/2013)
Fiji 25-14 Italy (06/07/2014)
Samoa 15-0 Italy (06/14/2014)
Japan 26-23 Italy (06/21/2014)
Uruguay 30-26 Argentina (08/01/2015)*
Japan 34-32 South Africa (09/19/2015)

Final thoughts - The most T1 victories were definitely in the 90s, where we had the golden age of Canada and Italy, as well as the last of Romania, the PIs dominating in the RWC, and even Namibia winning some games. Why the decline in the 2000s? I have some hypothesises

1. Italy being introduced as a T1 by 2000 definitely changed everything
2. The T1s never bothered giving many matches to the T2s like they had previously
3. Professionalism gave most of the T1s (except Scotland, who've declined) a huge edge over these minnows; most T2s declined because they couldn't professionalize as quickly

Regardless, this was interesting; I felt Rowan's previous thread underestimated Argentina, also Italy were definitely T2 until 2000, so their wins and losses are counted.
Last edited by Hansgrohe on Thu, 18 Feb 2016, 19:38, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby Sables4EVA » Thu, 18 Feb 2016, 07:00

Very interesting. If you take out the spike of the 90s you can see definite progression. looks like the gap is closing, slowly.

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby amz » Thu, 18 Feb 2016, 08:08

There's a Romanian win vs Italy in 2004:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Ital ... union_tour

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby RugInt » Thu, 18 Feb 2016, 12:58

Quote: Notes: Japan beat a Junior ABs side this decade, but I can't find any record of the NZ line-up.


03.06.1968 JAPAN 23, NEW ZEALAND JUNIORS 19 IN WELLINGTON

Not a test for NZ Juniors but caused an earthquake around NZ and the world at the time. I well remember it.

I saw this one
19.05.1974 JAPAN V NEW ZEALAND JUNIORS AUCKLAND LOST 31 - 55
The Japanese were tiny cf with the Juniors and got pushed around all over Eden Park. The Japanese got their 31 points via sheer exciting running and ball skills; the Juniors got their 55 points through sheer muscle and were roundly booed off the park by the Auckland crowd. Amazing!

Data from www.rugbyinternational.net

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby Horsehead » Thu, 18 Feb 2016, 13:50

From when should Argentine be counted as a T1 side? There are a few victories listed here in the 90s when I don't think they could really be counted as T1

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby diego » Thu, 18 Feb 2016, 17:19

Horsehead wrote:From when should Argentine be counted as a T1 side? There are a few victories listed here in the 90s when I don't think they could really be counted as T1


Dont know when. But beaten Ireland in RWC 99 should be counted as an starting point? Nice article about the History of rankings https://dubiousdata.atavist.com/rugby-rankings

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby solovastru » Thu, 18 Feb 2016, 17:58

Argentina was the strongest team outside the Five Nations and the south emisphere trio from the end of the 1960 decade.Their results prouve it so they must be consider T1 from an earlier stage that 2000. And you should add to the T2 victories list Romania's success over Italy from 2004 25-24 .And it was closely the best lineup that Italy could start those days. After all is Stejari's last succes over an T1 side.It was a monstruos Oaks side that hugely dominated the game leading 19-5 at the break and 22-5 after 50 minutes but suddenly the game turn with Kayne Robertson scoring the tries that put Italy in front 24-22 with only a couple minutes to go.Stejari's final revolt gave them the winning penalty for a victory that they could not repete since.

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby Hansgrohe » Thu, 18 Feb 2016, 19:47

I've added Romania's 2004 victory over Italy now - Italy were probably worse then than they are now (they beat Romania last year) but still they beat Scotland that year.

I added Argentina because even before those losses towards the mid 90s, before then they'd beaten the entire Five Nations at least once and beat Australia before too - not to mention they beat the Boks as "South America".

Other notes -
-Considering adding Japan's Junior ABs win, as well as Fiji and Tonga's victories over the Maori
-A lot of the results from the 20s-50s were so close. Honestly it's a shame that the 5N didn't tour Spain, Germany, Italy, Romania, etc...

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 19 Feb 2016, 10:10

Hansgrohe wrote:-A lot of the results from the 20s-50s were so close. Honestly it's a shame that the 5N didn't tour Spain, Germany, Italy, Romania, etc...


Home nations. France did play all of them regulary.
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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 19 Feb 2016, 10:14

Were there even tiers prior to professionalism?

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby iul » Fri, 19 Feb 2016, 11:33

I'm not sure this is a very useful comparison because the number of games national teams play has vastly increased now. It'd be nice if we had a comparison of the percentage of games T2s have won against T1s in each decade. Also, it'd be cool if we had the average score between them for every decade as well.

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby amz » Fri, 19 Feb 2016, 13:26

iul wrote:I'm not sure this is a very useful comparison because the number of games national teams play has vastly increased now. It'd be nice if we had a comparison of the percentage of games T2s have won against T1s in each decade. Also, it'd be cool if we had the average score between them for every decade as well.


Really? Increased? In what way? We did not played T1 outside RWC for a decade so home can one make a comparison with 2000s?

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby iul » Fri, 19 Feb 2016, 13:32

amz wrote:
iul wrote:I'm not sure this is a very useful comparison because the number of games national teams play has vastly increased now. It'd be nice if we had a comparison of the percentage of games T2s have won against T1s in each decade. Also, it'd be cool if we had the average score between them for every decade as well.


Really? Increased? In what way? We did not played T1 outside RWC for a decade so home can one make a comparison with 2000s?

We're not the only t2 nation, are we? Fiji, Tonga and Samoa are all included in the t2 stats and they do get to play quite a bit against t1s. The stats are for t2 vs t1 nations not for Romania vs t1s.

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby amz » Fri, 19 Feb 2016, 14:19

you did not get my sarcasm

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby olivier » Fri, 19 Feb 2016, 17:09

It's not a very efficient stats. Percentage of games won against Tier 1 would be better.

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby jservuk » Sat, 20 Feb 2016, 12:03

This is a good thread.

To satisfy us stat junkies, the ideal figures would be :

1. Flat number of wins (as now)
2. Wins as a percentage of T1 v T2/3 games
3. I would also like to see a measure of "Organic" growth, where we mark a team down for having players from the diaspora in Australia, NZ, etc playing for mum/dad/grandparents mother land. It gives a measure of grassroots progress.

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby solovastru » Sat, 20 Feb 2016, 14:34

It seems that the winning palmares of the T2 in the 90' decade has to decrease with one, specificaly Italy's victory from 93' against France. I just read on frr.ro where they have a serie of articles about the history of what is now ENC , previously called FIRA Nations Cup ,FIRA European Championship etc.They treat all the periodes starting with the 3 editions in the 1930 inspired by France who was then excluded from the Five Nations and so on till present.In the article dedicated to the 60' Fira Nations Cup where France and Italy were participating, they say that after an 1967 heavy defeat of Italy by France that has scored 60 points the french have decided not to line a full test squad against Italy, decission that was maintaint till 1995. So Italy's victory from '93 was against France A...

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby Hansgrohe » Sat, 20 Feb 2016, 20:43

- I think the percentage of games won would also be a very telling statistic, and also margin of victory. Perhaps a tally of nations with the most defeats too; France seem to be on the end of many of these, but likely because they were willing to play in the first place. Also; most victorious T2s; since 2000 it's been the PIs but in the 80s and 90s Romania, Canada, and Italy were wrecking havoc on the "establishment".
- @solovastru - according to Wikipedia France capped some games vs Italy during that period, but I could be wrong; not to mention T1 unions were notorious for not capping games against smaller nations. The Canada Scotland test featured multiple regulars for Scotland

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby solovastru » Sat, 20 Feb 2016, 22:01

@Hansgrohe If I remember corectly (I cannot verifie now) rugbyData.com(wich is a pretty acurate database) records first italian winn versus in France in 1997 so the game from '93 was not caped by France after all.It's true that very often during this decades Tier1 nations didn't caped some games against teams they consider smaller or at least sisnd make enough clear if they are caping the game or not so it's hard to establish now after so many years what was the situation from this point if view in a certain game or another.It's not the case only of this italian victory wich is important for Italy's records but also of other games like the one that Romania draw 13-13 on Lansdown Road in 1980 against a practicaly full test squad of Ireland but lately Irish union announced that was not caped.It was an identical case with the 1979 12-13 defeat that Stejari recorded from a full test welch squad on Arms Park but later the game was not recognised as full test by the welsch union even that , like in Ireland's case , prior to those tours that Stejari made the discussion were about full test games.Only beginning with '81 tour and game against Scotland 6- 12 on Murrayfield british nations started giving caps for games against Romania.

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 20 Feb 2016, 22:18

Does anyone know what the rules were back 20-30 years ago with regards to whether games were given test status or not?

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby Hansgrohe » Sun, 21 Feb 2016, 01:56

solovastru wrote:@Hansgrohe If I remember corectly (I cannot verifie now) rugbyData.com(wich is a pretty acurate database) records first italian winn versus in France in 1997 so the game from '93 was not caped by France after all.It's true that very often during this decades Tier1 nations didn't caped some games against teams they consider smaller or at least sisnd make enough clear if they are caping the game or not so it's hard to establish now after so many years what was the situation from this point if view in a certain game or another.It's not the case only of this italian victory wich is important for Italy's records but also of other games like the one that Romania draw 13-13 on Lansdown Road in 1980 against a practicaly full test squad of Ireland but lately Irish union announced that was not caped.It was an identical case with the 1979 12-13 defeat that Stejari recorded from a full test welch squad on Arms Park but later the game was not recognised as full test by the welsch union even that , like in Ireland's case , prior to those tours that Stejari made the discussion were about full test games.Only beginning with '81 tour and game against Scotland 6- 12 on Murrayfield british nations started giving caps for games against Romania.


The issue with rugbydata, while definitely reliable, doesn't list questionable XV games that may have originally been full tests. ESPN is a better source in regards to those games; they even have line ups available, so it would be worth looking for some of these and comparing them to "full" squads.

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby Gareth 1014 Rugby » Wed, 20 Dec 2017, 18:37

@Hansgrohe would it be possible to get permission to use your bar chart and data for a video we are doing on The 1014 Rugby Youtube/App? You have some great information here. We would credit you and this forum?
Gareth

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Re: Tier 2/3 victories over Tier 1 by the decade

Postby victorsra » Wed, 20 Dec 2017, 20:10

RugbyArchive has now a pretty useful head-to-head system http://www.rugbyarchive.net/Pagine/HeadToHead.aspx
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