Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Posts: 1355
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 21:19

jservuk wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Not quite related to this thread but in amazing news Racing Metro and Stade Francais have agreed to merge for next season. Wonder if there's trouble with sustainability of the Top 14.



More is emerging and it seems this more like a take over of SF by Racing than a genuine merger. The players are uniformly against it on social media and it turns out that for the merger to happen the amateur sections need to agree as they hold the pro licences and that is far from certain.

It does look like Stade are going bust either way though as unless Stade can find someone else to plug the financial hole they will be relegated under financial rules. The chairman certainly won't be putting his own money in anymore, the "merger" makes that abundantly clear.

The Top14 has been sustained for 100 years, the individual clubs will come and go but the league will always be there. Its a massive structural strength of the club game, you don't particularly rely on any one club or owner.


Is this the same guy who took SF to Stade de France and brought in a record 80,000 to watch a club game? The media magnate who enlisted Madonna and some other A-list celeb as mascots? I honestly thought at the time that SF were on course to usurp PSG as the biggest game in town. What has gone wrong?


No, that was Max Guazini. He took them over in the 90s but lost a lot of money around 2010 "in real life" so couldn't afford to fund them any more. This guy is Thomas Savare. His family runs a very big company but he is not in sole charge of the money and I understand he has been told to stop wasting money on rugby.

Posts: 79
Joined: Thu, 01 May 2014, 09:57

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby armchair_expert » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 03:04

dropkick wrote:One thing they could easily do is scrap the U20 6 nations and have an U20 European championship. The U20 6 nations is a good tournament but I don't think there would be too many tears if it was scrapped.

especially since U18 European Championship has turned out to be a big success

Posts: 31
Joined: Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 11:00
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby BertSolomon » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 09:59

ihateblazers wrote:Just to touch on the argument that we cannot tinker with the 6 nations because of the need for breaks inbetween interational matches. I think it's a bit of a myth to be frank.


True, but if rugby followed the example of other sports (which it rarely does), and spread internationals out over the season, this wouldn't be an issue anyway. Football internationals are mostly played in blocks of two - usually in September/October, November, March and June.

Opponents might say they like the tournament feel of the 6N, on the other hand this approach draws the excitement out over the whole season and gives club competitions more room to breathe. It would also make it easier to achieve the holy grail of a global international calendar - which football has.

Posts: 500
Joined: Tue, 27 May 2014, 20:40
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Thomas » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 10:13

sk 88 wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Figaro wrote:
Thomas wrote:We would have to wait and see what happens in England I understand from what clubs have been told there is a big re-alignment in the offing.


Source/link?


I don't have an official link but this is from the RFU.

A survey was sent to all clubs about possible changes at the lower levels (LEVEL 4 and below that is my understanding) reducing the amount of teams in the leagues and moving teams to a geographical area more appropriate to reduce travel costs which is considerable for many clubs i.e. a sideways move to another leagues.

The survey came out in 2015/2016 but results have not been released. Originally the changes were intended for the end of the current season but nothing has been released to the clubs just that it will happen. so at present waiting for the RFU (England Rugby) to release and how will affect all the leagues.



I think that was largely scrapped because the clubs at those levels didn't want the reduction in league sizes that was proposed. It was called the "Adult Competition Review" from memory, rolling-maul forum savaged the ideas from it for months.


That is true as there was opposition from the North but the last news release I can find is fromApril 2016:

Adult Competition Review
RFU Council maintains status quo for 1st XV rugby.
At its meeting today, the RFU Council voted to overturn its original decision to implement the Adult Competition Review recommendations concerning adult 1st XV rugby.

This follows further extensive consultation with all parties, which included an independent survey from a leading UK market research company Ipsos MORI. Responses were sought from players, club officials and clubs as a whole to give the broadest cross-section of views possible.

“Council’s decision to suspend implementation of the recommendations for adult 1st XV and cup rugby was not taken lightly but was the result of careful consideration and feedback from people across the game,” said RFU Chairman Bill Beaumont. “A great deal of meaningful debate and in-depth consultation has continued throughout this review process and some very useful insights have been gained which we will use in our ongoing work to grow rugby nationwide.

“I would like to personally thank everyone who has contributed and I look forward to a healthy future for our great game.”

While the status quo remains for now for adult 1st XV rugby, recommendations concerning 2nd and lower XV rugby, student competitions, sevens and touch will be implemented in accordance with the previously agreed timetable.

The Community Game Board will continue to work closely, through its Competitions Development sub-committee and local Divisional Organising Committees, to give the players the varied diet of rugby they seek, whilst recognising the need for attractive home fixtures to maintain club revenues


The problems haven't gone away, yes England are doing well in the 6N and the premiership is moving along but what about the lower leagues. we keep talking in these forums about expansion and development but club rugby still needs looking after.

User avatar
Posts: 428
Joined: Thu, 28 Apr 2016, 14:02
Location: Las Canteras, Uruguay
National Flag:
UruguayUruguay

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 13:24

BertSolomon wrote:
ihateblazers wrote:Just to touch on the argument that we cannot tinker with the 6 nations because of the need for breaks inbetween interational matches. I think it's a bit of a myth to be frank.


True, but if rugby followed the example of other sports (which it rarely does), and spread internationals out over the season, this wouldn't be an issue anyway. Football internationals are mostly played in blocks of two - usually in September/October, November, March and June.


Fifa is discussing having less, longer windows.

Posts: 2336
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 14:02

If we consider in football Latin America the equivalent of AUS-NZ-SA in rugby, the football window is Eurocentric, because European football teams never visit Latin America (and no way for Africa). With all matches in Europe it is easy to spread them all over the season.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 1256
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 14:34

victorsra wrote:If we consider in football Latin America the equivalent of AUS-NZ-SA in rugby, the football window is Eurocentric, because European football teams never visit Latin America (and no way for Africa). With all matches in Europe it is easy to spread them all over the season.

They did it for a big bucket of dollars, but Spain has played at least half a dozen games in Latin America during the last decade.

Posts: 2336
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 17:57

My memory is not that good for football, but when and where? Apart from WC/Confeds Cup
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 2336
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 18:05

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_nat ... E2.80.9309

Yes, you are right, apart from WC/Confeds, since 2010, Spain played 5 matches in Latin Amrican, Argentina, Mexico, Costa Rica, Venezuela and Ecuador. 5 matches in 6 years. And all in former colonies, obvious ties. Look at the number of matches in Europe. Completly different from rugby, that has 3 matches for every 6N nation in the South every year. That is what I mean. Football's friendlies are centered in Europe.

England for exemple, apart from the WC, played 1 match in Latin America since 2010 (Brazil in 2013): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_n ... 2000s#2010
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 1256
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 18:10

Seven games plus two more in the USA

August 2010, v Mexico, Mexico City
September 2010, v Argentina, Buenos Aires
June 2011, v Venezuela, Puerto La Cruz
November 2011, v Costa Rica, San José
August 2012, v Puerto Rico, Bayamón
November 2012, v Panama, Panama City
August 2013, v Ecuador, Guayaquil

I add the other two in the USA against Latin American nations (not USA or Ireland) because they were obviously targetting diaspora
June 2013, v Haiti, Miami
June 2014, v El Salvador, Washington

I already brought the subject because it's crystal clear to me: if you offer a big amount of money to a T1, particularly Australia, Argentina, Italy, Scotland, Ireland or Wales, they will play wherever you tell them to go.

Posts: 2336
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 19:50

Ok, but what about the rest? Germany, Italy, France, England, Netherlands...

I woudn't list USA there. It is just like USA in rugby (but MUCH more developed), they will go anywhere because of the money. I compare Latin America in football with Oceania in rugby.
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 21:13, edited 2 times in total.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 2862
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 21:07

It's not perfect, but Georgia and Romania will be getting regular T1 matches in July from 2020 onward. Interesting WR wording in the press release say 'European nations including Georgia and Romania', which seems to indicate more 6N teams could play in Europe in July once teams like Spain and Germany start getting better. So, it's not the option we all want, but it's a start. If they're able to fit in a November test fixture that would mean two T1 tests a year.

Posts: 192
Joined: Sun, 31 Aug 2014, 11:36
National Flag:
PakistanPakistan

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby jservuk » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 21:31

victorsra wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_national_football_team_results#2000.E2.80.9309

Yes, you are right, apart from WC/Confeds, since 2010, Spain played 5 matches in Latin Amrican, Argentina, Mexico, Costa Rica, Venezuela and Ecuador. 5 matches in 6 years. And all in former colonies, obvious ties. Look at the number of matches in Europe. Completly different from rugby, that has 3 matches for every 6N nation in the South every year. That is what I mean. Football's friendlies are centered in Europe.

England for exemple, apart from the WC, played 1 match in Latin America since 2010 (Brazil in 2013): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_n ... 2000s#2010


It tends to happen more in the years prior to a World Cup in South America. I remember England playing in South America in 1977, 1984, 1985, 2013.

Posts: 2336
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 21:50

Yes, I overstated, sorry. But if we compare Argentina and Brazil soccer to Australia and New Zealand in rugby we receive much less the big European teams. If we compare PIs in rugby to African teams in soccer we can maybe say the same. That is my point and soccer's absence of tour concept IMO doesn't help. European teams in football can base their annual calendars on European, as they have plenty of opponents there.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 71
Joined: Tue, 18 Nov 2014, 15:06
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby honestly_united » Fri, 17 Mar 2017, 10:45

In football the majority of the South American players are based in Europe, so it makes more sense to play in Europe rather than fly both sets of players back and forth to South America for what is going to be a friendly anyway.

Outside of official tournaments (WC, Gold Cup) there are no competitive games outside of your region anyway so no reason for European teams to travel over for games.

Posts: 1135
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 17 Mar 2017, 12:07

honestly_united wrote:In football the majority of the South American players are based in Europe, so it makes more sense to play in Europe rather than fly both sets of players back and forth to South America for what is going to be a friendly anyway.


That was never the reason they played in Europe.I know some guys who were organinzing this and basically there were some people who massively benefitted in those soccer nations from playing in Europe. They just used your arguments it to justify why they played home-games in Europe.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

User avatar
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 11:27

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby ihateblazers » Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 02:21

Goold old Pichot rattling the Anglo Saxon cage again

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/gbrenn ... x-nations/

“I’m sure it will touch a lot of nerves but I would urge the Six Nations to give other countries a chance.

“They don’t want a threat to the status quo. It’s been the same for years.

“We now have more fixtures for tier-two nations but that’s not enough. It would be great to have promotion and relegation. If we don’t challenge the status quo then rugby won’t grow and it will be stuck in Anglo-Saxon ways.’

“I don’t know how they created their own entity with no attachment to World Rugby.

“There needs to be more working together to take care of the global game. There are not just 10 teams in the world: the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship nations. It’s not right.

“It would be the best thing for rugby for countries like Georgia to have a chance.

“World Rugby will support them. The Six Nations are very conservative. It was a very similar situation with Argentina. Nations need to realise that we must grow the game.”

Explosive stuff. But needs to be said by someone with his authority. Thank goodness we have this man in the game.

Posts: 2862
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 03:15

I honestly think he needs to run for the top job next election.

Posts: 139
Joined: Sat, 03 May 2014, 00:22
National Flag:
New ZealandNew Zealand

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Scoob » Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 03:47

Georgia cant even get the English and the celtic nations to have a regular under 18-20 competition between them.Its like they are stuck in there distant past where the class and neighbourhood you were bought up in determines everything,which translates to rugby and the thought of playing Georgia in far east Europe is almost unthinkable.Think of the movie Titanic,the rich get saved first while the rest fend for themselves.
Its not that much better in SANZAAR.The pacific islands are sliding away in a major way,and it wont be long before Spain,Germany,Brazil,Belgium,USA,Holland brush by them in world rankings.

User avatar
Posts: 428
Joined: Thu, 28 Apr 2016, 14:02
Location: Las Canteras, Uruguay
National Flag:
UruguayUruguay

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby NaBUru38 » Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 14:17

The Sunwolves play in Super Rugby. The Fiji Warriors play in Australia's National Championship.

What have England and France done for Italy, Spain and Germany?

Posts: 583
Joined: Thu, 16 Jul 2015, 17:26
National Flag:
GeorgiaGeorgia

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyPUBtbilisi » Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 14:20

"Agustin Pichot urges conservative Six Nations to embrace expansion"

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/ ... -expansion

Posts: 1355
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 14:33

NaBUru38 wrote:The Sunwolves play in Super Rugby. The Fiji Warriors play in Australia's National Championship.

What have England and France done for Italy, Spain and Germany?


Ummmm we've played Italian clubs for over 20 years. Until they destroyed their league we played all sorts of different ones too.

Posts: 1063
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 09:18
Location: Bucharest
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby amz » Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 14:34

Tbh, 6N was the first competition to expand and added Italy. It also doesn't say how he thinks sides should be added, and that's key. I'd support promotion/relegation. I'd be more against making it a 7N than for having promotion/relegation. I already think there are too many test games. I also don't understand lines like "I don't understand how they created their own entity". If he doesn't know look it up. Certainly World Rugby seem as bonkers as any other administrative body and I've never felt a wish they they were in charge

Posts: 2336
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 15:01

Italy s being helped for everybody. They always had their spots in the European Cup (Heineken Cup/Champions Cup + Challenge Cup), as their clubs are being smashed for 6 rounds in groups phases for long time. It is Italy's fault their current problem with their national championship.

And France always did a lot for Continental Europe, since FIRA times. Isn't France the only 6N nation playing the Euro U18 now?

Again, it is not possible to create relegation system in the 6N as ir is OWNED by the 6 nations, their stakeholder. Nobody votes to lose mllions of $. The only ways are either expansion or to create a new competition.

IMO, if expansion is on the table, the only way to create a system of relegation/promotion is to have World Rugby and/or Rugby Europe as 6N/7N/8N partners, as stakeholders that offer their "spots" for new countries. In other words, World Rugby and/or Rugby Europe should own one or two spots and open them to the best Rugby Europe teams every year.

In the other hand a simple expansion solves nothing. If Georgia is admited and become "unrelegatable" it woudn't solve European rugby problems, just Georgia's problems.

A new competition is probably easier to do, but has the calendar issue.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 583
Joined: Thu, 16 Jul 2015, 17:26
National Flag:
GeorgiaGeorgia

Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyPUBtbilisi » Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 15:55

victorsra wrote:In the other hand a simple expansion solves nothing. If Georgia is admited and become "unrelegatable" it woudn't solve European rugby problems, just Georgia's problems.


6 Nations with relegation is not realistic. Italy is too rich for this.
On other hand 7 Nations with Promotion/Relegation, Home/Away test match with 7N loser and REC winner, to decide the spot in 7 Nations.

That would give additional spot in 7 nations + will give a motivation to REC teams to enter in 7 Nations.

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: frakturfreak, sandro and 10 guests