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Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 17 Feb 2018, 21:18

People will burn Italian flags in the streets
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby amz » Sat, 17 Feb 2018, 21:20

victorsra wrote:People will burn Italian flags in the streets


they deserve it , they're the root of all evil in European rugby

*looks at Continental shield* :roll:

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 17 Feb 2018, 21:20

I think it is such a shame these threads descend into Italy v Georgia v Romania arguments. What matters is that we have fluid movement from nation 42 to nation 7 then a totally arbitrary and self re-enforcing bar between nation 7 & nation 6, no matter who they happen to be at the moment or the gap between them.

I might rather we go to a European Championship in June, but if a relegation play off was on the table I'd fully support that. No nation has a divine right to be in the top tier for ever.

If this system is good enough for the rest of Europe it is good enough for the top 6 nations too.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby amz » Sat, 17 Feb 2018, 21:23

sk 88 wrote:No nation has a divine right to be in the top tier for ever.


Nothing divine there, just a lucrative ltd.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby olivier » Sat, 17 Feb 2018, 21:33

amz wrote:
sk 88 wrote:No nation has a divine right to be in the top tier for ever.


Nothing divine there, just a lucrative ltd.

Badly lucrative. A European championship would generate more money...

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 17 Feb 2018, 22:05

Again, you forget the simplest thing: 6 Nations is NOT owned by Rugby Europe (that is why it is NOT arbitrary, as the 6N/5N/HN is older... older than WR/IRB, BTW). There are 2 different structures in place. The question is how to merge them.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Canalina » Sat, 17 Feb 2018, 22:09

sk 88 wrote:...I might rather we go to a European Championship in June...

The European Championships of other team-sports have place every four years: a yearly Euro Championship would have enough appeal on the crowds? Where would it be played? I mean: how many nations in Europe may guarantee full or almost full stadiums also for the matches not involving the home team? Ok, it could be a spared championship: not only one nation as venue but every nation hosts some matches.
Personally, I'm happy with the Six Nations. It's anachronistic, I know; it's a bit snob and casts-friendly, but it's good also for this reason. And I don't think to say that just because Italy is in

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 17 Feb 2018, 22:14

The issue is not Italy or Georgia. It is ownership, Unions vs Rugby Europe.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 17 Feb 2018, 23:36

victorsra wrote:Again, you forget the simplest thing: 6 Nations is NOT owned by Rugby Europe (that is why it is NOT arbitrary, as the 6N/5N/HN is older... older than WR/IRB, BTW). There are 2 different structures in place. The question is how to merge them.


I think the answer is simple. Let the 6N take control of running and branding the REC, but the 6N has to then become a Rugby Europe sanctioned tournament.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 17 Feb 2018, 23:47

I don't think it is that easy. Why REC countries would let the 6N Ltd (which is tied to the Union of those 6 countries) to take control of their competition?

Unless they have a stake of the 6N Ltd ... and why the 6N would let it now if the REC is still a semi-pro thing (with all the organization problems we all know and lack of public in many matches)? Well, 6N Ltds needed autonomy from the 6 Unions to work with promotion/relegation system (as teams would change, like in a club's league) (BTW, I don't know exactly how autonomous is the 6N Ltd.. does anybody knows?).

The 6N would need to think really long-term. Are they willing to do that? Well, Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Italian unions can't think much on long term, as they are trapped in their own PRO14/players exodus problems. While France is an ex-national team in activity.

But, if the 6N Ltd takes control of the REC.... how would be Rugby Europe's future? Those guys want to build a professional organization? Because they would lose power, at least...
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 01:29

Rugby Europe has to become more professional. They need to have plan in place that shows not only the standard of play can improve, but they also need to show there is commercial appeal to the REC. That's the first thing that needs to be fixed. We just had two reasonably big crowds in Russia over the last couple of weeks thanks to new management actually promoting the games for once. It's the first time in years I seen actual improvement in attendance for REC crowds outside of Georgia. These should be the objectives:

• Aim for average crowds of 15,000 per match for the REC
• Secure a TV right deal for at least the REC, (maybe the RET too if possible)
• Run a proper advertising campaign for the tournament
• Get the REC into mainstream rugby publications and media
• Find new investors and sponsors
• Improve the level of play across the divisions

The last objective is where Rugby Europe and its unions have to look to Uruguay as an example of how to professionalise national teams who still operate within a mostly amateur structure. It can't just be about waiting for professionalism to come anymore or about using a handful of pro players from lower English or French leagues a few times a year, the nations teams have to start a Uruguay style programme and create a professional environment for amateur players.

If those objectives are met I believe the 6 Nations will start taking notice because all of a sudden there's a commercial rival developing on the continent. Right now it's just Georgia flying the flag in terms of potential, but it needs the other nations to be elevated too. It's not enough for one nation to be dominant on the field and averaging 20,000 crowds in the stadium, it needs the others to start doing that also. Russia have started making changes in terms of promotion which have resulted in bigger crowds already. So, this can be done, it just needs some better planning and a little bit of hard work.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 01:42

Yep, pretty much this thatrugbyguy.

The shortcut, IMO, is what I wrote before:
have a 8 Nations Championship, with the 6 Nations as core teams (as they own the competition) + 2 non-core REC teams (with Rugby Europe/World Rugby becoming stakeholders of the 6N Ltd). Every year those two non-core teams can play a relegation playoff in June/July against the 2 best teams that played the REC.

But this shortcut needs a long term work together to be possible to have just one fair structure with promotion/relegation for everybody in the future. And the long term is what you wrote.

This is much richer discussion than "replace Italy by Georgia", but change nothing.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 10:08

Canalina wrote:
sk 88 wrote:...I might rather we go to a European Championship in June...

The European Championships of other team-sports have place every four years: a yearly Euro Championship would have enough appeal on the crowds? Where would it be played? I mean: how many nations in Europe may guarantee full or almost full stadiums also for the matches not involving the home team? Ok, it could be a spared championship: not only one nation as venue but every nation hosts some matches.
Personally, I'm happy with the Six Nations. It's anachronistic, I know; it's a bit snob and casts-friendly, but it's good also for this reason. And I don't think to say that just because Italy is in



Personally I'd go with 4 yearly one held in the slightly longer Lions tour windows. And keep the 6N but with promotion and relegation as a "league" equivalent to the wider cup. I enjoy the 6N but the snobby closed element of it really puts a downer on it.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 10:32

thatrugbyguy wrote:Rugby Europe has to become more professional. They need to have plan in place that shows not only the standard of play can improve, but they also need to show there is commercial appeal to the REC. That's the first thing that needs to be fixed. We just had two reasonably big crowds in Russia over the last couple of weeks thanks to new management actually promoting the games for once. It's the first time in years I seen actual improvement in attendance for REC crowds outside of Georgia. These should be the objectives:

• Aim for average crowds of 15,000 per match for the REC
• Secure a TV right deal for at least the REC, (maybe the RET too if possible)
• Run a proper advertising campaign for the tournament
• Get the REC into mainstream rugby publications and media
• Find new investors and sponsors
• Improve the level of play across the divisions

The last objective is where Rugby Europe and its unions have to look to Uruguay as an example of how to professionalise national teams who still operate within a mostly amateur structure. It can't just be about waiting for professionalism to come anymore or about using a handful of pro players from lower English or French leagues a few times a year, the nations teams have to start a Uruguay style programme and create a professional environment for amateur players.

If those objectives are met I believe the 6 Nations will start taking notice because all of a sudden there's a commercial rival developing on the continent. Right now it's just Georgia flying the flag in terms of potential, but it needs the other nations to be elevated too. It's not enough for one nation to be dominant on the field and averaging 20,000 crowds in the stadium, it needs the others to start doing that also. Russia have started making changes in terms of promotion which have resulted in bigger crowds already. So, this can be done, it just needs some better planning and a little bit of hard work.



Agree with this. The emphsis has to be on the REC countries to continue to improve on and off the field to force the issue.

A REC team getting to a RWC quarterfinal ahead of a 6N team might also force the issue. Remember Italy were genuinely casting doubts on the legitimacy old 5N champions in the late 90s, as in they beat France in 97 who grand-slams in 97 & 98. Currently Georgia are only really doing that on Italy.

I think getting the matches on TV in the UK on Eurosport (or wherever) would go a long way to helping it break through. A lot of "serious" rugby people (like John Feehan probably) have no idea on the standard, no idea on the facilities on offer because they've never seen it. If it was on TV in Britain people would watch it and it would help with people knowing it. Also the UK is the second biggest rugby market in the world, a TV deal there is pure profit to put back into the wider tournament.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 11:22

A lot of rugby journalists have no idea of the standard. Anytime the world cup is on and I hear commentators talking about T2 teams I roll my eyes, because they've clearly not seen anything about these teams to know how they play. Anyone of us in here would know more about the level of play from these teams than the so called 'experts'.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 19 Feb 2018, 04:24

I continue to say this...being T1 isn't necessarily about standard of on field play...

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 20 Feb 2018, 00:07

Sick wrote:No, dude. Italy has not always been defeated by Fiji. Look at the results from last november.


TheStroBro wrote:Lol what? Italy's record against: Fiji is 6-6. Samoa 2-5, Spain 23-3-1, Namibia 1-2, Uruguay 3-0...so wtf are you on?


I said outside home.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Ainsthrilln » Tue, 20 Feb 2018, 00:20

NaBUru38 wrote:
Sick wrote:No, dude. Italy has not always been defeated by Fiji. Look at the results from last november.


I said outside home.


Well, last June Fiji won 22-19 with a drop in the last minute.

I watched the game, and I'm not neutral, but I thought Italy deserved to win.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 20 Feb 2018, 00:58

You know I'm quite ignorant. I can't tell referee signs, and I don't even watch every Teros match.

Anyway, I just published a comparison of matches outside home. Italy hasn't performed better than Georgia, but has been given many more opportunities to play tier 1 teams.

Most of my ancestors are Italian, I'm certainly not rooting against them. What I demand is equal opportunities.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 20 Feb 2018, 01:38

England's little training run against Georgia got me thinking. There are two breaks in the 6 Nations schedule, what would people think of mid-week fixtures between 6N and REC teams as a way of easing into expansion or promotion/relegation? If memory serves me correct before Italy joined the 6 Nations they played some of the 5 Nations teams who had the bye weekend. Mid-week fixture would be able to provide 6N teams a chance to test some new players out whilst giving the first choice players a rest. Thoughts?

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 20 Feb 2018, 06:24

While in theory a good idea, the REC teams already play 5 games (which is actually more than at a RWC).
The problem is that no REC-Union has, unlike their 6N counterparts, their players under a central contract in a direct (Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Italy) or indirect (England, France) contract. Six games in a row are too much (actually 5 games already lead to all of the REC-Unions not being able to field all players in all games.
I think an international 5 weeks ban of club games would be more beneficial. Would be a small give in to those nations with real (=snow) winters.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 20 Feb 2018, 11:44

Emerging Italy has been playing every June since 2006, which is remarkable.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby 4N » Tue, 20 Feb 2018, 14:46

NaBUru38 wrote:Italy hasn't performed better than Georgia, but has been given many more opportunities to play tier 1 teams.

Most of my ancestors are Italian, I'm certainly not rooting against them. What I demand is equal opportunities.


I'm half Italian and feel the same way. :thumbup:

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Canalina » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 10:32

Data of the only previous match between Italy and Georgia. Some of those lelos are still on the national team or Parisse could be the only one to double the duel?

http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/match/24514.html

4N wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:Italy hasn't performed better than Georgia, but has been given many more opportunities to play tier 1 teams.

Most of my ancestors are Italian, I'm certainly not rooting against them. What I demand is equal opportunities.


I'm half Italian and feel the same way. :thumbup:

Plenty of upon-a-time-italians here :) Naburu, 4N, Grande and maybe also RugbyLiebe

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 13:54

25% Italian o/
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