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Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sandro » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 19:19

Offcourse Germany isn't ready at the moment but nobody is adding anyone for the comming years, and Germany is really making steps forward. And who knows where they will be if they qualify for 2019? Romanian Rugby is stagnating so there should be a point in the future where those lines will cross.

And I think REC has no future becoming anyting like the 6N yes there is a huge market, but nobody outside the home nations, France and Italy gives anything about Rugby. The Netherlands had a historic chanse to be promoted to the highest championship in European rugby and no media coverage zero! So how could you make money of something when the interest is zero?

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby fullbackace » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 19:41

sandro wrote:And I think REC has no future becoming anyting....


Not With that attitude ;)

Lets start by Making REC a fully respectable, well-organized body with high standards. The simple things need to be done as well or better than 6N. For example timely news updates, quality coverage for Tournaments. No more barnyard games.(Belgian home field has looked terrible for years now, they need to sort that out sometime right ?) Pregame interviews/Postgame interviews, apps with live updates and reminders, official well organized podcasts, articles. Rugby Europe TV maybe with correspondents. Interviews with fans from all the countries. Interesting trivia. everything that makes it interesting and fun.

It is really hard to get new audience when your best source of new is a Reddit or enthusiasts on Forums/Blogs. lets face it, people are used to UEFA level of Organization, and everything less than that seems Unprofessional/not serious. can you imagine footy fans being more informed and up to date on news than UEFA employees? when you're after new markets you need to keep making headlines so it stays fresh in the memory. currently we only have people who are absolutely in love with the game, Casual fans barely stick around because the sport is simply too difficult to follow
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sandro » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 20:21

I understand your point but that does not change the main problem there is no interest. Olso rugby is a verry difficould game to watch if you don't understand the basic principles. Believe my I have tried I have invited friends over to watch some quality rugby olso Georgian Games offcourse, but to them is like wresteling with a oval ball. So you have nations who's big audiance is not interested in rugby and even they where they would not watch something for 80 they dont understand. So creating a rugby culture in a country is verry hard and takes decades! And none of the REC nations are on that path even now.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Thomas » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 20:41

The way I read this release is an opening gambit set their stall before the new TV contracts come out. RE knows they are behind the eight ball, 6 nations have the money not them. You need to woo the Plc and offer something attractive hence my earlier comment.

This is not about fairness but harness the money to expand and build and then develop the sport. look forward to the future developments.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 21:15

fullbackace wrote:
sandro wrote:And I think REC has no future becoming anyting....


Not With that attitude ;)

Lets start by Making REC a fully respectable, well-organized body with high standards. The simple things need to be done as well or better than 6N. For example timely news updates, quality coverage for Tournaments. No more barnyard games.(Belgian home field has looked terrible for years now, they need to sort that out sometime right ?) Pregame interviews/Postgame interviews, apps with live updates and reminders, official well organized podcasts, articles. Rugby Europe TV maybe with correspondents. Interviews with fans from all the countries. Interesting trivia. everything that makes it interesting and fun.

It is really hard to get new audience when your best source of new is a Reddit or enthusiasts on Forums/Blogs. lets face it, people are used to UEFA level of Organization, and everything less than that seems Unprofessional/not serious. can you imagine footy fans being more informed and up to date on news than UEFA employees? when you're after new markets you need to keep making headlines so it stays fresh in the memory. currently we only have people who are absolutely in love with the game, Casual fans barely stick around because the sport is simply too difficult to follow


This is 100% true.
Actually I do think that there are already huge steps in that direction. Rugbyeurope.tv was one of the most important things introduced to continental Rugby. The facebook page is stepping up now, too. RE is on the right path.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 23:03

This is 100% true.
Actually I do think that there are already huge steps in that direction. Rugbyeurope.tv was one of the most important things introduced to continental Rugby. The facebook page is stepping up now, too. RE is on the right path.


The streaming is a great think that people did not give the proper credit. Specially when we are talking about Conference 1 and 2 matches, that are obscure competition if we think in worldwide terms.

Of course, we are in the 21st century and anyone can do it with Facebook and a camera. But at least they are doing it properly.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 23:15

Sorry victor, I don't understand what you mean.
I am not talking about the fourth division of European rugby aka the RE Conference (if you count the 6N in). Off course I don't expect a professional level there.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 02:14

Sorry RL, I wasn't clear. I am indeed agreeing with you.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby NaBUru38 » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 19:41

Wendigo7 wrote:Who joins though Naburu?


The top 2 from the second division, of course.
Then every year or every two years, the bottom team would switch places with the top team of second division.

The problem of adding Georgia is that the other teams would have no chance of entering either.
That's why having 8 teams and one promotion-relegation is the best solution to me.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Buffalo » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 20:32

It's not likely to happen but the best expansion is to seven teams. No one in RE but Georgia is currently good enough for the hassle of making an 8N. Keep the original 6N members and grant a spot to RE for their champion. Then Georgia can defend their spot in a H&A with the next RE winner during the summer. RE gets a somewhat opened competition with a guaranteed slot, Georgia gets at least a couple guaranteed years of inclusion and every team plays 3H and 3A games which seems fair. The 2nd division then becomes more interesting and open with Romania, Spain and Russia all at close enough levels with Germany improving at an impressive rate and Belgium and Portugal rounding out the ranks. Maybe even make that a 7N as well and bring up the Netherlands who seem to be improving at a good pace and probably would be somewhat competitive with the bottom three. It's the best most inclusive solution I can think of while not demanding the 6N members give up one of their places which isn't going to happen.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Horsehead » Sun, 12 Mar 2017, 11:07

Buffalo wrote:It's not likely to happen but the best expansion is to seven teams. No one in RE but Georgia is currently good enough for the hassle of making an 8N. Keep the original 6N members and grant a spot to RE for their champion. Then Georgia can defend their spot in a H&A with the next RE winner during the summer. RE gets a somewhat opened competition with a guaranteed slot, Georgia gets at least a couple guaranteed years of inclusion and every team plays 3H and 3A games which seems fair. The 2nd division then becomes more interesting and open with Romania, Spain and Russia all at close enough levels with Germany improving at an impressive rate and Belgium and Portugal rounding out the ranks. Maybe even make that a 7N as well and bring up the Netherlands who seem to be improving at a good pace and probably would be somewhat competitive with the bottom three. It's the best most inclusive solution I can think of while not demanding the 6N members give up one of their places which isn't going to happen.


This. Hard to argue with any of that

Edit; I misunderstood. I don't agree that Georgia have to defend their spot each year, whoever finishes bottom should have to do that. In my mind the addition of bonus points, adding a 7th team and a play off is more than enough of a safety net for the existing 6Ns to stay safe, if with all that they still fail then they more than deserve tp be relegated
Last edited by Horsehead on Mon, 13 Mar 2017, 13:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 12 Mar 2017, 11:31

I don't like the idea of some teams being given a permanent seat and others not. That said, even a one year run in the 6N would give a heathy enough cash injection for which ever union were to qualify and would elevate the standing of the REC, potentially bringing in more money into that competition as well as the divisions below it. It also solves the problem of some 6N teams having more home games than others. Still, if say Georgia were to finish higher than last is reasonable to ask them earn their place? Imagine a 6N table that looks like this at the end of the tournament:

1. England
2. Ireland
3. Wales
4. France
5. Georgia
6. Scotland
7. Italy

Why should Georgia have to qualify again? Hell, what if they were to win the entire thing as unlikely as that it? Those are the type of questions that come up by having one rotating spot.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Buffalo » Sun, 12 Mar 2017, 14:06

People demanding that a current 6N member be able to lose their spot are doing a disservice to the fight for expansion and inclusion. Let's face it, Georgia just isn't an enticing expansion candidate for a tournament that is all about making money. Making the 7th spot for RE instead of just Georgia and having them defend it is the most fair compromise I can think. Maybe when more countries that have strong economies and ties to the 6N members get to a suitable level then tweaking the system could be more enticing.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 12 Mar 2017, 14:49

But here's the problem with that idea of expansion, the current schedule is already seven weeks. It would balance the schedule if you keep it at seven weeks, but shortening it to five and keeping the current 6N format is what I'd like.

Maybe expanding to 7 is the only way, which is stupid, but 6N is a privately held competition. What happens when whomever the 7th team finishes ahead of one or two of the 6N, we just don't have relegation that year? That's dumb.

By having a barrage playoff you force the hand of that Union to make the necessary investments in player development to get back to where they were. I'm for pure relegation, but a barrage playoff allows the Union to defend it's seat.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Buffalo » Sun, 12 Mar 2017, 18:32

Well y'all are going to have to get used to living in disappointment then. The 6N has a vested interest in the survival and financial security of each member nation. They aren't going to allow a format that could hurt any of them, particularly a Home Nation. It's their tournament and it has been for over 100 years. For expansion to happen politics will most likely need to be played. What I suggested seems to me a fair compromise, though not actually fair itself, for Rugby Europe/Georgia to get their foot in the door while protecting 6N interests, at least in the initial stages. Ideally, perhaps after a 5-10 year probationary membership period, they would/could/should move to a full 6N/6NB format with a summer Pro/Rel playoff between the last ranked 6N and the 6NB winner.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 13 Mar 2017, 11:58

Not quite related to this thread but in amazing news Racing Metro and Stade Francais have agreed to merge for next season. Wonder if there's trouble with sustainability of the Top 14.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby grande » Mon, 13 Mar 2017, 12:47

thatrugbyguy wrote:Not quite related to this thread but in amazing news Racing Metro and Stade Francais have agreed to merge for next season. Wonder if there's trouble with sustainability of the Top 14.


Wow, that's crazy news. Aren't they the two most recent champions? Has anything like this happened in any other top division for a sport? Both of these teams have over a century of history...

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby suofficer » Mon, 13 Mar 2017, 13:06

makes room for a Georgian team to join.......

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby amz » Mon, 13 Mar 2017, 13:09

thatrugbyguy wrote:Not quite related to this thread but in amazing news Racing Metro and Stade Francais have agreed to merge for next season. Wonder if there's trouble with sustainability of the Top 14.


I think it's a business decision of club's owners...but I find it ridiculous tbh.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 13 Mar 2017, 13:14

thatrugbyguy wrote:Not quite related to this thread but in amazing news Racing Metro and Stade Francais have agreed to merge for next season. Wonder if there's trouble with sustainability of the Top 14.



Among the clubs who have experienced an alarming drop in gates are [...] Racing 92, whose average crowd this season is 8,863, a drop of 12.8% on last season. But that’s still small compared to neighbours Stade Francais, whose average gate is 9,321, 22% lower than last season.

Source: http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/with-fal ... stre-75990

The metropolitan area of Paris counts 12 million people. That says a lot how irrelevant rugby is in Paris.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 13 Mar 2017, 16:38

thatrugbyguy wrote:Not quite related to this thread but in amazing news Racing Metro and Stade Francais have agreed to merge for next season. Wonder if there's trouble with sustainability of the Top 14.



More is emerging and it seems this more like a take over of SF by Racing than a genuine merger. The players are uniformly against it on social media and it turns out that for the merger to happen the amateur sections need to agree as they hold the pro licences and that is far from certain.

It does look like Stade are going bust either way though as unless Stade can find someone else to plug the financial hole they will be relegated under financial rules. The chairman certainly won't be putting his own money in anymore, the "merger" makes that abundantly clear.

The Top14 has been sustained for 100 years, the individual clubs will come and go but the league will always be there. Its a massive structural strength of the club game, you don't particularly rely on any one club or owner.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 13 Mar 2017, 16:40

RugbyLiebe wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Not quite related to this thread but in amazing news Racing Metro and Stade Francais have agreed to merge for next season. Wonder if there's trouble with sustainability of the Top 14.



Among the clubs who have experienced an alarming drop in gates are [...] Racing 92, whose average crowd this season is 8,863, a drop of 12.8% on last season. But that’s still small compared to neighbours Stade Francais, whose average gate is 9,321, 22% lower than last season.

Source: http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/with-fal ... stre-75990

The metropolitan area of Paris counts 12 million people. That says a lot how irrelevant rugby is in Paris.


The French broadcasters apparently don't confirm kick offs for any game until 2 weeks before they are played, treating the fans with such disdain will only ever result in less people going through the turnstiles.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Osmanperalta » Mon, 13 Mar 2017, 17:44

The metropolitan area of Paris counts 12 million people. That says a lot how irrelevant rugby is in Paris.[/quote]

Its no just rugby before of qatar psg average crowd was only 20.000
The fall of stade francais average is due to his last 2 disastrous season and thanks by a stingy president who has allowed almost all players to leave

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby NaBUru38 » Mon, 13 Mar 2017, 18:57

sk 88 wrote:The French broadcasters apparently don't confirm kick offs for any game until 2 weeks before they are played, treating the fans with such disdain will only ever result in less people going through the turnstiles.

That's standard in South America.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Mon, 13 Mar 2017, 19:23

Some thoughts:

- Paris is big enough to have 2 clubs and both to be bigger than any other club because Paris e so much bigger than any other city. It is a matter of working on that underexplored potential;

- It looks like the French simply can't deal with the derby concept. Paris is perhaps the biggest city in Western World with just one top football club (well, I would love to see Red Star back to Ligue 1, but it is difficult)... rugby had the opportunity to develop the derby culture... have they really failed or it was a matter of time and good work on that?

- Stade Jean Bouin is municipality-owned, not Stade Français-owned. Taxpayers are loving to know that it will become useless just a couple of years after its reopening (Red Star is playing there too, but they have really small crowds). The new merged team will play at the new Racing Arena;

- London will be the only city in professional top rugby with a derby, with Saracens vs Harlequins (I am not counting Japanese Top League, Auckland's Battle of the Bridge). But London too have just seen Wasps going away... When I look at poor crowds in Auckland or Sydney that is the first thing I start to question: wouldn't a true derby soccer-like (but non-violent) culture make wonders for rugby in big cities? Australian soccer and cricket saw that and are growing in Sydney and Melbourne. MLS in NY saw that too.

Due to poor management and short vision Paris is throwing away a huge opportunity of develop a great mass culture of professional rugby rivalries that just needed time (after all, professional rugby is young) and good work.
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