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Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 07 Jan 2020, 08:02

ihateblazers wrote:I think that on average the Celts v England games have the highest ratings but yes, France v England is usually the highest single rated game, apart from maybe England v Wales depending on the importance and time slot. The British TV rights make up the majority of revenue though, obviously due to having 3 teams in it's market. You would still keep the majority of these games and a final match in a prime time TV slot would be attractive.


I looked through as many news sites as I could find and England vs. France seems to hold the audience record.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-rugby ... JL20150323

While I don't think this will happen, the 8-team two groups format is the only way to expansion that makes sense. But we all now that traditions are worth more to a lot of people in rugby than growth.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby iul » Tue, 07 Jan 2020, 08:12

It makes more sense to just use those two free weekends during the 6N to play more games.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 07 Jan 2020, 09:14

The simplest way to expand is just to add another team. 7 teams, everyone gets 3 home games. Lose the 2 rest weekends and everyone gets a bi week.
If there was a team in Europe that the other Six Nations wanted to join, this is what they would do, in my opinion.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Tobar » Tue, 07 Jan 2020, 16:37

Chester-Donnelly wrote:The simplest way to expand is just to add another team. 7 teams, everyone gets 3 home games. Lose the 2 rest weekends and everyone gets a bi week.
If there was a team in Europe that the other Six Nations wanted to join, this is what they would do, in my opinion.


They won’t want to give up one of their byes. But it wouldn’t be unreasonable to add 1 more team which they will surely beat pretty easily so they will likely have 2nd stringers anyway.

Give 1 spot to the winner of the previous year’s REC (some schedule changes would be needed if this is the case) and then they get 5 quality test matches a year plus gate revenue. It’ll give the REC a lot more meaning as well.

The only downside is that this is just a concession to Tier 2 and not a real fix, however if teams can consistently perform against Six Nations teams and throw in a shock win here and there (along with showing they have good crowds) then maybe the Six Nations will open their eyes to real expansion.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Edinburra » Tue, 07 Jan 2020, 20:26

Had read something similar on one of the other threads and thought it could be suitable for an expanded 6N
A structure based upon the european club basketball. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroLeague#Qualification

In this case the 6N become permanent members who hold long term licences. Additional countries are granted temporary licences and 2 two-year wild cards. As teams are granted a 2 year "wild card" , over the 2 year period , you would play the games during the Autumn Internationals and 6N window home and away. Expanding the competition to 10 teams , the 6 Nations could invite 4 more teams and play home and away. If countries like Japan or Argentina were invited they could play in Spain or Germany. The 9 games would play the same AI weekends and 6N dates with the results over the two years counting towards a championship. There is no impact to Lions tours , summer tours and in a World Cup year , the 6N invite less teams as there would be a AI window missing.

Inviting teams over a two year period could give the 6N teams the option to determine if they want to invite teams on a permanent basis and as membership is based upon a "licence" the 6N are the shareholders and have permanent membership , teams who become permament but not commercial partners , for example Georgia , become associate members. Guaranteeing matches and a proportionate share of the commercial revenue but not shareholders of the competition.

Teams could be invited without any long term commitment from both sides and there is no reason why this format cannot be expanded in various formats as the competition evolves over the subsequent years.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby 4N » Tue, 07 Jan 2020, 21:15

Expanding the competition to 10 teams , the 6 Nations could invite 4 more teams and play home and away. If countries like Japan or Argentina were invited they could play in Spain or Germany.


Fun fact: Dusseldorf has a large Japanese community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ ... BCsseldorf

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Tue, 07 Jan 2020, 22:43

Sorry but it is outrageous to make a national team play all its matches away from home. It sounds Europe is doing a favour to other continents. That doesn't help the sport. If TRC is played in 3 continents for sur Europeans could travel. It is not a favour.

T1s need to understand they are not doing favours. Like the idiotic Sanzaar that charged more the Japanese to play Super Rugby.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Edinburra » Wed, 08 Jan 2020, 03:27

The 6N could then see this as looking for commercial partners. For example , why not invite the SA to join permanently when there tv deals finish (2025 , I beleive) and break up the SANZAAR compettion. SA could join for the benefit of commercial as well as less travel time for player welfare.

Another country on the list would be to get the US to join. Games would be played on the East Coast for travel and TV times , the 6N window clashes with the MLR but with the access to a higher profile competition , the MLR may see this as an excellent oportunity to play regularly in a higher quality competition than the ARC. The 6N benefits by gaining a stronghold of the brand within the lucrative US market.

The proposal to have teams pay in Spain was taken from a previous suggestion from Argentina themsleves when they sought to gain access to a competition which met their needs
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ition.html
Would Argentina revisit their participation in an alternate competion bearing in mind they have finished bottom of the Championship every year they have taken part.

If there is doubt about playing particular countries , consider the logic of how most countries derive their income stream from Test rugby. For countries such as the Pacific islands to generate a suitable revenue stream to keep players domesticaly and develop stadium to host internationals or prevent players from playing for other countries, playing test matches in other countries over the next 10-12 years makes sense. For countries like Fiji who have many players playing in Europe and potentially changing allegiance , whilst it is not ideal , playing test matches in Europe where many players are based and getting the revenue stream of 'pseudo' home matches could be appealing

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Edinburra » Wed, 08 Jan 2020, 03:30

What I should have said in addition is that when it comes to the summer tours , is that if countries are invited to join the 6N who are outside Europe then the 6N will tour these countries during the summer in a reciprocal arrangement.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 08 Jan 2020, 08:06

victorsra wrote:Sorry but it is outrageous to make a national team play all its matches away from home. It sounds Europe is doing a favour to other continents. That doesn't help the sport. If TRC is played in 3 continents for sur Europeans could travel. It is not a favour.


Europe has nothing to do with it. Somebody who doesn't even play in European youth competitions can not be considered European in rugby. This is solely the out-of-space idiots from the Home Nations. Europe gets f*** over way more than every other continent from those cartel guys.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Wed, 08 Jan 2020, 15:33

Home Nations are Europe. If someone want non-European teams in an European competition, dont propose like it is charity.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Wed, 08 Jan 2020, 16:08

Just to make clear: I understand what you mean, but France and Italy are part 6N too. What they think?
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Tobar » Wed, 08 Jan 2020, 16:21

Edinburra wrote:The 6N could then see this as looking for commercial partners. For example , why not invite the SA to join permanently when there tv deals finish (2025 , I beleive) and break up the SANZAAR compettion. SA could join for the benefit of commercial as well as less travel time for player welfare.

Another country on the list would be to get the US to join. Games would be played on the East Coast for travel and TV times , the 6N window clashes with the MLR but with the access to a higher profile competition , the MLR may see this as an excellent oportunity to play regularly in a higher quality competition than the ARC. The 6N benefits by gaining a stronghold of the brand within the lucrative US market.

The proposal to have teams pay in Spain was taken from a previous suggestion from Argentina themsleves when they sought to gain access to a competition which met their needs
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ition.html
Would Argentina revisit their participation in an alternate competion bearing in mind they have finished bottom of the Championship every year they have taken part.

If there is doubt about playing particular countries , consider the logic of how most countries derive their income stream from Test rugby. For countries such as the Pacific islands to generate a suitable revenue stream to keep players domesticaly and develop stadium to host internationals or prevent players from playing for other countries, playing test matches in other countries over the next 10-12 years makes sense. For countries like Fiji who have many players playing in Europe and potentially changing allegiance , whilst it is not ideal , playing test matches in Europe where many players are based and getting the revenue stream of 'pseudo' home matches could be appealing



The US won’t join 6N (even if it was an option). They switched their calendar to Southern Hemisphere. If anything they join the RC.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 08 Jan 2020, 16:31

Tobar wrote:
The US won’t join 6N (even if it was an option). They switched their calendar to Southern Hemisphere. If anything they join the RC.


If Japan joins the Rugby Championship, USA would definitely be a suitable candidate; California being situated approximately half way between Japan and Argentina.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 09 Jan 2020, 07:23

victorsra wrote:Just to make clear: I understand what you mean, but France and Italy are part 6N too. What they think?


They are also part of the problem. Especially Italy, which basically act as willing minions in every move the Home Nations make. Only difference is that at least their average fans are not that ignorant and way more open. France is the continent's only hope for change though as they don't have the Commonwealth rich boys club approach as the Home Nations. If there would only one additional European nation would have the same rugby love to the extent of France, rugby would be way bigger worldwide.

I mean seriously who would really be for adding a nation like the USA ahead of European nations which are actually (at least until the MRL kicks in) on the same level. This perfectly sums up rugby's massive problems and that's so deeply rooted that most Home Nation fans would even say: "Yeah, that makes sense". This "exclusive club mentality" has to go.

They are so arrogant and ignorant that it leads to the ridiculous "others should be thankful"-attitude, you rightfully speak against.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Canalina » Thu, 09 Jan 2020, 08:45

I repeat my usual position on this account.
The Six Nations are a closed club but they don’t prevent other nations to play rugby. The Home Nations created rugby, they made the legend of rugby (also through the closed Four/Five/Six Nations), they made rugby famous, they directly or indirectly spreaded rugby to all the world.
The other european nations have all the freedom to play rugby and to create rugby competitions. In fact there was an european cup for not-home-nations clubs (the Continental Shield, a total flop, now defunct), there were some trans-national competitions for clubs (like the Baltic Cup or the Nordic Cup, both now defunct) and an european championship for nations, which nobody follows apart the nations involved and we rugby nerds. Plus there’s an european confederation since 1935 circa. Now there’s finally this Kontinental Club Liga created by the russian federation; let’s hope it may put roots and flourish.
(Russia is trying to create a new rugby pole in the east, bidding for the World Cup, hosting -and winning- some Euro 7s stages, purposing this new league for clubs and organizing by their own the European Beach and Snow Championships. Kudos to them, that’s the way).
Could the Home Nations/Six Nations do more for the involment of the rest of the continent? Probably.
Is it their fault if rugby is not so popular in the rest of Europe? No.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby ihateblazers » Thu, 09 Jan 2020, 10:22

Well there is no doubt in my mind that if the home nations had not been so elitist with their amateur and upper class ethos and so rugby league would not have split, rugby would have spread around the world just as football, and we would not have to have a t2 rugby forum now :D. Even if France and SANZAR had been on the IRB board earlier we probably would have had a world cup earlier and thus further growth.

In any case, SANZAAR is not sustainable at the moment and they along with World Rugby will continue to pressure the 6 nation's.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 09 Jan 2020, 10:32

Canalina wrote:Could the Home Nations/Six Nations do more for the involment of the rest of the continent? Probably.
Is it their fault if rugby is not so popular in the rest of Europe? No.


Fact is, they are controlling World Rugby and therefore hindering everyone else. The best example is 7s. What measures does Rugby Europe (which definitely organizes the Olympic sport of Rugby 7s in all of Europe) have if they don't apply to the rules like playing with a youth team in an Olympic sport? None.

Do you like feudalism? Why are those peasants not forming their own kingdoms? Why don't they eat cake when they don't have bread. Let them build their own mills, even when most of the knowledge and all the mills are in our hands?

Why is this structure only in rugby and in no other serious sport? A top nation not playing a single game within the jurisdiction of its continental federation is absolutely unheard of. Why can't they be sanctioned? Ah, they are above the law, as they formed a private entity and would backfire through the World federation they control. Okay, so disqualify them or based on what can they claim public funds (most important point and difference to the NFL).

If they would be 100% independent like i.e. the NFL, you would have a case. But they are not, as they control a) World Rugby, which is supposed to treat all nations equal and lobby heavily that they don't b) they also control the law-makers for the game and most important c) claim they are indeed the international game and not a private entitity.

As long as they do those things, there is no chance to build something else on the international game. But here you are claiming, that if somebody did something good, everyone should be forever and in eternity be grateful for it and not confront them, when they are basically using this invention to be a**holes. The only solution would to abandon rugby and call it something else. And I think nobody wants that.
But you know this tactics, you just don't want to see it, as Italy profits from it.

Apart from that Ihateblazers is spot on.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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