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Argentine club rugby

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby carbonero » Tue, 24 May 2016, 23:15

Thomas wrote: is this a cultural thing or are the clubs afraid to change and modernise?


It is cultural. At the end of the day, we are talking about social clubs. And by definition, they have other priorities outside of rugby.

Nonetheless, there is some sort of modernization within the clubs. As nonprofits, all the income that comes through TV or sponsors has to be reinvested. This means an upgrade in the pitches, facilities, gymnasiums, etc.. Now it is a common practice to employ nutritionists, physical trainers and strength coaches.

The technical training is still carried away by volunteers, but many of them have World Rugby qualifications. The UAR is also imparting free courses through the country to improve the standards of grassroots coaching. All the “know how” generated with the UAR’s high performance setup is available for anyone who asks for it.

Thomas wrote: How will Argentina develop it's Rugby? From an outsider what is the problem in setting up a separate professional organisation under the UAR umbrella?


The roadblock is interest. A team comprised of 85% of the Pumas can barely draw 12.000 supporters in Buenos Aires. There are not many casual rugby fans in Argentina. And the evangelization of new fans generally happens through the clubs itself, so everybody has already an allegiance. There is no real demand for a professional league.

The bet of the Argentine Union seems to be to increase participation, something that they have been able to do after the success of the 2007 RWC. Encourage the creation of new clubs, while trying to erase the elitist stigma that still surrounds the sport. With a bigger talent pool, we can aspire for a second or third franchise in SR. Maybe the calendars merge and players can return to Europe as well. It is far from perfect, but it is the model that best suits our idiosyncrasies.

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby jservuk » Wed, 25 May 2016, 00:12

carbonero wrote:
The roadblock is interest. A team comprised of 85% of the Pumas can barely draw 12.000 supporters in Buenos Aires. There are not many casual rugby fans in Argentina. And the evangelization of new fans generally happens through the clubs itself, so everybody has already an allegiance. There is no real demand for a professional league.



I thought the Pumas in the RC get excellent attendances.

So long as the Argentina football team can continue to struggle to win, or even play well, it leaves a good chance for the Pumas to promote Rugby provide they can maintain good level of performance in RWC. The problem with Rugby in general throughout the world is in trying to promote a healthy club game.

I see France and Argentina as the most likely countries where Rugby could in 30 years overtake football. In France's case the growing strength of Rugby is plain to see, but Argentina it's more a dream, but I one I cling to nonetheless. They even stopped the big club football match in 2007 so that everyone could watch the RWC. That wouldn't happen anywhere else. Rugby has a strong future in Argentina.

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby carbonero » Wed, 25 May 2016, 03:52

jservuk wrote:I thought the Pumas in the RC get excellent attendances.


I was refering to Jaguares attendances

jservuk wrote: I see France and Argentina as the most likely countries where Rugby could in 30 years overtake football. In France's case the growing strength of Rugby is plain to see, but Argentina it's more a dream, but I one I cling to nonetheless. They even stopped the big club football match in 2007 so that everyone could watch the RWC. That wouldn't happen anywhere else. Rugby has a strong future in Argentina.


Overtaking football is impossible. Period.

The match you mention was the River-Boca Superclásico which coincided with the QF against Scotland in 2007. But nobody stopped the match. The FA just rescheduled it two hours later so that everyone could watch both events.

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 25 May 2016, 05:12

carbonero wrote:
Thomas wrote: is this a cultural thing or are the clubs afraid to change and modernise?


It is cultural. At the end of the day, we are talking about social clubs. And by definition, they have other priorities outside of rugby.

Nonetheless, there is some sort of modernization within the clubs. As nonprofits, all the income that comes through TV or sponsors has to be reinvested. This means an upgrade in the pitches, facilities, gymnasiums, etc.. Now it is a common practice to employ nutritionists, physical trainers and strength coaches.

The technical training is still carried away by volunteers, but many of them have World Rugby qualifications. The UAR is also imparting free courses through the country to improve the standards of grassroots coaching. All the “know how” generated with the UAR’s high performance setup is available for anyone who asks for it.

Thomas wrote: How will Argentina develop it's Rugby? From an outsider what is the problem in setting up a separate professional organisation under the UAR umbrella?


The roadblock is interest. A team comprised of 85% of the Pumas can barely draw 12.000 supporters in Buenos Aires. There are not many casual rugby fans in Argentina. And the evangelization of new fans generally happens through the clubs itself, so everybody has already an allegiance. There is no real demand for a professional league.

The bet of the Argentine Union seems to be to increase participation, something that they have been able to do after the success of the 2007 RWC. Encourage the creation of new clubs, while trying to erase the elitist stigma that still surrounds the sport. With a bigger talent pool, we can aspire for a second or third franchise in SR. Maybe the calendars merge and players can return to Europe as well. It is far from perfect, but it is the model that best suits our idiosyncrasies.


If you cannot move to paying players then professionalizing the structures around them is probably the next best thing. Even paying them a small stipend to cover dosts of taking a more professional attitude to nutrition etc. would bring the standard of play even higher which will have a flow on effect for the rest of the game.

Increasing the participation is huge for the future of the game in any country. Does the Argentine Rugby Union have a development program designed to reach out to new players particularly those from demographics that traditionally would never have engaged with the game?

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 25 May 2016, 15:44

I think that Jaguares players that don't play the Rugby Championship should play the Campeonato Argentino.

But as they are professionals, they don't want them.

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 26 May 2016, 02:53

I think that Jaguares players that don't play the Rugby Championship should play the Campeonato Argentino.

But as they are professionals, they don't want them.


Soon Argentina will have to create a Currie Cup-like professional competition, specially if they get a second Super Rugby franchise. A PRO Rugby-style South American League would be awesome.

With 2 Super Rugby franchises in the top of the pyramid we could start with 6 teams, 3 Argies, 1 Uruguayan, 1 Chilean, 1 Brazilian. And plan expansions in Argentina and Brazil, maybe Paraguay.
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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 26 May 2016, 23:12

Clubs don't want that. Instead, I think that the Campeonato Argentino should be strengthened.

Perhaps some teams from lower divisions could be merged, to have Buenos Aires, Centro (Córdoba), Cuyo (Mendoza), Litoral (Rosario), Noroeste (Tucumán) and a sixth team (for example an under-23 national team).

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 27 May 2016, 02:33

NaBUru38 wrote:Clubs don't want that. Instead, I think that the Campeonato Argentino should be strengthened.

Perhaps some teams from lower divisions could be merged, to have Buenos Aires, Centro (Córdoba), Cuyo (Mendoza), Litoral (Rosario), Noroeste (Tucumán) and a sixth team (for example an under-23 national team).


Here's the thing. http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2016/0 ... d-players/
In order to achieve this they are going to have to vastly expand their professional base in Argentina. So either the clubs have to or it needs to be UAR driven via something like the Campeonato. I actually like the idea above and would even suggest transforming the Campeonato from a domestic championship into a South American league. Transition a team from Montevideo, Brazil and Chile in over a 5-10 year period.

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby jservuk » Fri, 27 May 2016, 14:50

carbonero wrote:
The match you mention was the River-Boca Superclásico which coincided with the QF against Scotland in 2007. But nobody stopped the match. The FA just rescheduled it two hours later so that everyone could watch both events.


To me, that speaks volumes of the attraction of Rugby in Argentina; I could never imagine an English Premier League match being moved so people could watch a RWC match. However in England, there is a definite subtle coordination in the timings of televised sports events to make it easier for people to spend the whole weekend doing nothing but watching sport.

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 27 May 2016, 19:37

About the Nacional de Clubes final, I was finally watching it and they said in the broadcast the attendance was about 6k people. Absolutely full.
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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby carbonero » Fri, 27 May 2016, 20:57

Working Class Rugger wrote: Here's the thing. http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2016/0 ... d-players/
In order to achieve this they are going to have to vastly expand their professional base in Argentina. So either the clubs have to or it needs to be UAR driven via something like the Campeonato. I actually like the idea above and would even suggest transforming the Campeonato from a domestic championship into a South American league. Transition a team from Montevideo, Brazil and Chile in over a 5-10 year period.


Pichot is overstating that number. Argentina has about 30 professional players gathered in that beacon of light called Jaguares. The rest receive a sort of subsidy or grant from the union that should be around 7.000 ARS (u$s 500). It is below our minimum salary, so calling them professional is just wrong.

And please chill with the talk about a pro league. This is the third world we are talking about; there is no way we can pay anything resembling a competitive salary. Nobody gives a fuck about Campeonato Argentino anyway. The unions have been trying to scrap it altogether in the last years. The Buenos Aires team, were more than 40% of Argentines live, can’t even attract 250 fans to some of their games. That is why the UAR buried the tournament in November.

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby jservuk » Fri, 27 May 2016, 21:11

carbonero wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote: Here's the thing. http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2016/0 ... d-players/
In order to achieve this they are going to have to vastly expand their professional base in Argentina. So either the clubs have to or it needs to be UAR driven via something like the Campeonato. I actually like the idea above and would even suggest transforming the Campeonato from a domestic championship into a South American league. Transition a team from Montevideo, Brazil and Chile in over a 5-10 year period.


Pichot is overstating that number. Argentina has about 30 professional players gathered in that beacon of light called Jaguares. The rest receive a sort of subsidy or grant from the union that should be around 7.000 ARS (u$s 500). It is below our minimum salary, so calling them professional is just wrong.

And please chill with the talk about a pro league. This is the third world we are talking about; there is no way we can pay anything resembling a competitive salary. Nobody gives a fuck about Campeonato Argentino anyway. The unions have been trying to scrap it altogether in the last years. The Buenos Aires team, were more than 40% of Argentines live, can’t even attract 250 fans to some of their games. That is why the UAR buried the tournament in November.


Sobering words, but surely the RWC success of the Pumas had an effect on Rugby's profile. That's usually how it works - success at the top event results in increased grassroots interest.

What are the prospects for continued success in the RWC? Unless I'm misunderstanding, from what you say the Argentine Rugby framework is fragile.

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby carbonero » Fri, 27 May 2016, 23:50

jservuk wrote: Sobering words, but surely the RWC success of the Pumas had an effect on Rugby's profile. That's usually how it works - success at the top event results in increased grassroots interest.

What are the prospects for continued success in the RWC? Unless I'm misunderstanding, from what you say the Argentine Rugby framework is fragile.


Don’t you think the present framework is fragile? We put all our eggs in one SR franchise. The UAR doesn’t have neither the depth nor the financial clout for a second one. And there are no prospects whatsoever regarding a professional league.

So with the current restrictions, only around 20 dudes are receiving decent playing time with the big dogs. They have basically shrunk the Pumas talent pool.

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Mon, 30 May 2016, 20:15

carbonero wrote: Nobody gives a fuck about Campeonato Argentino anyway. The unions have been trying to scrap it altogether in the last years.

The Buenos Aires team, were more than 40% of Argentines live, can’t even attract 250 fans to some of their games. That is why the UAR buried the tournament in November.


If the Águilas had Jaguares players, fans would attend (even if it's to insult them).

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby carbonero » Mon, 30 May 2016, 22:55

NaBUru38 wrote:
carbonero wrote: Nobody gives a fuck about Campeonato Argentino anyway. The unions have been trying to scrap it altogether in the last years.

The Buenos Aires team, were more than 40% of Argentines live, can’t even attract 250 fans to some of their games. That is why the UAR buried the tournament in November.


If the Águilas had Jaguares players, fans would attend (even if it's to insult them).


But the tournament is in the middle of the November window. So the only Jaguares available would be Felipe Ezcurra, Facundo Bosch, etc.

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby eal22 » Tue, 05 Jul 2016, 04:20

Is there a way to watch URBA Top 14 matches online from outside Argentina?

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 05 Jul 2016, 23:50

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/rugby/ shows the highlights.

I've heard rumours of na attempt to place the second Argentine Super Rugby team in São Paulo to become a South American franchise (but obviously with 80-90% of players from Argentina). Brazilian TV numbers impressed. But I am not sure of the viability if the team is not exactly Brazilian (which would be impossible in a short term).
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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby eal22 » Wed, 06 Jul 2016, 04:12

Yes, I have found where to watch highlights, was hoping to find some full match replays. Interestingly enough I can watch Argentine Polo live and on-demand in the USA on ESPN Deportes - it is not geo-blocked like everything else on the Argentine ESPN streaming site.

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby ihateblazers » Wed, 06 Jul 2016, 05:30

victorsra wrote:http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/rugby/ shows the highlights.

I've heard rumours of na attempt to place the second Argentine Super Rugby team in São Paulo to become a South American franchise (but obviously with 80-90% of players from Argentina). Brazilian TV numbers impressed. But I am not sure of the viability if the team is not exactly Brazilian (which would be impossible in a short term).


Keep us posted mate, that's a fascinating prospect.

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 06 Jul 2016, 10:02

Torneo del Litoral standings after round 7

Jockey Club 28
CRAI 28
Duendes 27 (*)
GER 23
Provincial 18
Círculo Rafaelino 17
Logaritmo 14 (*)
Old Resian 13
Santa Fe Rugby 12
Estudiantes 10
Universitario Rosario 4
Universitario Santa Fe 1

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 06 Jul 2016, 10:05

Torneo del NOA standings after round 9

Los Tarcos 35
Tucumán Rugby 35
Universitario Salta 31
Huirapuca 30
Natación 28
Gimnasia y Tiro 25
Jockey Club Salta 24
Univesitario Tucumán 23
Lince 23
Tucumán Lawn Tennis 21
Cardenales 19
Old Lions 18
Santiago Lawn Tennis 18
Juckey Club Tucumán 10
Tigres 3
Coipú 0

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 06 Jul 2016, 10:08

Torneo de Córdoba standings after round 5

Tala Rugby, 24
Jockey Club Córdoba, 22
Palermo Bajo, 22
Urú Curé, 19
La Tablada, 9
Jockey Club Villa María, 6
Universitario Córdoba, 5
Córdoba Rugby, 5
Córdoba Athletic, 4
Carlos Paz, 0
San Martin Villa María, 0


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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby argie » Sat, 23 Jul 2016, 22:55

The Buenos Aires derby was won by SIC (San Isidro Club) over CASI (Club Atlético San Isidro).
SIC 24-12 CASI

Highlights
http://www.espn.com.ar/rugby/nota/_/id/ ... rba-top-14

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Re: Argentine club rugby

Postby eal22 » Fri, 21 Oct 2016, 23:39

Great to see Belgrano beat Hindu 25-10 for the URBA Top 14 title.

Highlights: http://espndeportes.espn.com/videohub/v ... id=2819674

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