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South American rugby

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 19:13

I do make that assumption. Altruism doesn’t exist in Tier 1 rugby. However, there is nothing wrong with turning a profit with this tour. I'm sure Brazil and Chile are going to get their investment back.


You are right. In Brazil Bradesco bank is behind the event. Bradesco is Brazilian Rugby Union's major sponsor and recently they payed almost all costs of all the Womens Sevens Series tournaments hosted in Brazil + all Rio Beach Rugby tournaments. Now there is even a website for the event: http://allblacksmaorinobrasil.com.br/ They are definitly paying.

Is it full Brazilian national team?

Waiting for the list. But the Tupis had not played in June, so probably yes.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 19:26

BTW, Brazil vs Maori All Blacks will probably be at Morumbi stadium, São Paulo FC's stadium, the largest one in São Paulo, with capacity for 67.000 people.

Morumbi wasn't used for the FIFA World Cup because it is considered old and located in an area without subway. It is an historic important stadium in the city but fans don't like because the field is too distant from the stands. It is bad to watch the games.

Allianz Parque, Palmeiras' stadium, where Brazil played Uruguay 2016, will have a music concert (Alice in Chains and Judas Priest) on November 10th. And I don't know why Pacaembu Stadium wasn't chosen. But with Morumbi, the only major São Paulo stadium never used by the Tupis will be Arena Corinthians, World Cup's stadium, that is too far from downtown (but I would prefere Arena Corinthians than Morumbi because Arena Corinthians is very easy to go by subway, just enter and wait...).

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 19:27

We've always said in this forum that the only reason why football sees world champions play minnows it's because they receive a big check. If somebody is willing to bankroll this in rugby, bring it on.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Blurandski » Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 21:12

Armchair Fan wrote:We've always said in this forum that the only reason why football sees world champions play minnows it's because they receive a big check. If somebody is willing to bankroll this in rugby, bring it on.


Credit where credit is due, NZRU has done an amazing job of building up the AB brand. You could pop an AB game anywhere and it'd sell out, pop an ABM match anywhere, and with adequate promotion it'll get a massive crowd.

It's good to hear that major sponsors are getting involved with Brazilian rugby. I remember just a few years ago where rugby seemed to be stalling, at best in South America. The olympics generally seemed to turbocharge growth in a lot of small markets. The guy who called up the IOC president to play for Belgium in his youth has single-handedly done wonders for rugby.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 12 Jul 2018, 01:08

National olympic committees and governments give money mainly to Olympic sports. The Olympic status of rugby is a great way to increase revenue for tier 2 and tier 3 rugby unions.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 12 Jul 2018, 08:02

Armchair Fan wrote:We've always said in this forum that the only reason why football sees world champions play minnows it's because they receive a big check. If somebody is willing to bankroll this in rugby, bring it on.


But that's not true. The only reason world champions play minnows in soccer, is because FIFA and UEFA strictly avoided creating closed shops and every team needs to play a qualification. This qualification has on the continental levels no tiers and every nation has the same chance.
You are talkinga about the very rare case of world champions playing intercontinental minnows in friendlies, but that's not that common. Normally intercontinental friendlies are between the top nations.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 12 Jul 2018, 08:19

Very rare case? Germany has played Saudi Arabia, Austria, Finland, Hungary, Slovakia, USA and Australia in friendlies since 2014 World Cup.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 12 Jul 2018, 09:12

Armchair Fan wrote:Very rare case? Germany has played Saudi Arabia, Austria, Finland, Hungary, Slovakia, USA and Australia in friendlies since 2014 World Cup.


Austria, Finland, Hungary and Slovakia are European (and therefore not intercontinental minnows) and none of those provided significant money.

Saudi-Arabia and the USA were played at home and meant as a cheer-up-game before the start of the WC. The US game was probably an arrangement to help the former German and then US-coach Jürgen Klinsmann. But not to earn money.
The game against Australia was changed on short-notice as Germany would have played Israel, but they had to play a postponed qualifier game that day. So Australia stepped in.

But you miss the point. They don't play a special opposition for the money (off course they will still earn a lot through gate, merchandise and tv-rights) but we've came to a point where the opposition doesn't matter that much.
When Germany played Gibraltar in the Euro qualifier there where still 8,5 million watching
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten ... ifikation/
The most watched game in that qualifier was Germany-Georgia with 12,69 million btw. Hardly a highlight game.

Edit: to turn back to South America. I've got some insights how and why Brazil played "home"-friendlies in Europe ehm in Switzerland and lets say somebody earned and it wasn't necessarily the Brazil soccer federation.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 12 Jul 2018, 09:20

I know how these friendlies in Switzerland against random competition work, a few people in Spain is right now in prison because of having brokered them. But the thing is they were money-driven. Spain did play a few games in Switzerland, USA and South America, while it's not unsual at all to see South American top teams play in Arabian Gulf or China.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 12 Jul 2018, 09:26

Armchair Fan wrote:I know how these friendlies in Switzerland against random competition work, a few people in Spain is right now in prison because of having brokered them. But the thing is they were money-driven. Spain did play a few games in Switzerland, USA and South America, while it's not unsual at all to see South American top teams play in Arabian Gulf or China.


Fair enough. My point was more that most of the games against minnows are not for money, but for qualification/sport reasons. I don't doubt there are games played for money, but not to a degree like in rugby.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Hernan14 » Thu, 12 Jul 2018, 22:41

Armchair Fan wrote:while it's not unsual at all to see South American top teams play in Arabian Gulf or China.


In fact it is quite unusual, Argentina has played only one match in its history in China, against Brazil in 2014. Both played among them in Doha in 2010, but you know, they played also in England, USA, Australia...and to honor the truth, Argentina played against Saudi Arabia in 2012 and against Qatar in Doha in 2005...

Brazil has not played in China another match, and the same to the Doha match, but play in 2006 against Kuwait & UAE

Colombia played in 2015 against Kuwait & Bahrain, and against China in 2017...Uruguay is the team that has played most times in China, in 2002 (before the Japan/South Korea WC), in 2010 (after his 4th place in the South Africa WC) and this year against Czech Republic & Wales in the China Cup...


If it is true that now they play less and less home friendly matches, but the main reason is the obstacles placed by the European clubs to yield to the players, so it is much simpler for a matter of time to gather the players there, also is almost impossible to get european teams to come here, keep in mind that for the qualifiers the players arrive and after two or three days they have to play :roll:

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Thomas » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 18:45

Are there any Professional Referees in South America or in Argentina? I ask because I have just seen the appointments for the upcoming Rugby Championship and nowhere there is an Argentinian referee for any match either as a Assistant, TMO or officiating a game.

Something is wrong in referee development if there is no one qualified at Elite Level.

https://officiating.worldrugby.org/?pag ... ents&id=79

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 18:50

I'd say Federico Anselmi is professional.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Blurandski » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 19:03

Thomas wrote:Are there any Professional Referees in South America or in Argentina? I ask because I have just seen the appointments for the upcoming Rugby Championship and nowhere there is an Argentinian referee for any match either as a Assistant, TMO or officiating a game.

Something is wrong in referee development if there is no one qualified at Elite Level.

https://officiating.worldrugby.org/?pag ... ents&id=79


Scotland is the worst offender, no T1 refs in ages now.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby argie » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 19:09

Thomas wrote:Are there any Professional Referees in South America or in Argentina? I ask because I have just seen the appointments for the upcoming Rugby Championship and nowhere there is an Argentinian referee for any match either as a Assistant, TMO or officiating a game.

Something is wrong in referee development if there is no one qualified at Elite Level.

https://officiating.worldrugby.org/?pag ... ents&id=79

Yes, it's a disappointing surprise.

If you are a follower of Super Rugby you could have seen to Federico Anselmi as referee or assistant in many matches. Today he was the official of the Crusaders vs Blues match.
In tests matches he usually referees T2 nations, or as assistant of T1 and T2. He´s also named in the sevens series, as the other argentines referees Pablo Deluca and Danián Shneider that are named in continental tournaments too.
As is known, Santiago Borsani is usually the home TMO in Super Rugby.

But World Rugby still doesn't name any Argie Referee for T1 matches.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Thomas » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 19:33

argie wrote:
Thomas wrote:Are there any Professional Referees in South America or in Argentina? I ask because I have just seen the appointments for the upcoming Rugby Championship and nowhere there is an Argentinian referee for any match either as a Assistant, TMO or officiating a game.

Something is wrong in referee development if there is no one qualified at Elite Level.

https://officiating.worldrugby.org/?pag ... ents&id=79

Yes, it's a disappointing surprise.

If you are a follower of Super Rugby you could have seen to Federico Anselmi as referee or assistant in many matches. Today he was the official of the Crusaders vs Blues match.
In tests matches he usually referees T2 nations, or as assistant of T1 and T2. He´s also named in the sevens series, as the other argentines referees Pablo Deluca and Danián Shneider that are named in continental tournaments too.
As is known, Santiago Borsani is usually the home TMO in Super Rugby.

But World Rugby still doesn't name any Argie Referee for T1 matches.


I am not very familiar with them but have heard of Anselmi, I assume fully professional? the appointments looks like a close shop to me.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 20:13

Thomas wrote:Are there any Professional Referees in South America or in Argentina? I ask because I have just seen the appointments for the upcoming Rugby Championship and nowhere there is an Argentinian referee for any match either as a Assistant, TMO or officiating a game.

Something is wrong in referee development if there is no one qualified at Elite Level.

https://officiating.worldrugby.org/?pag ... ents&id=79


Think it says more about World Rugby to be honest.

I refuse to believe there are not several Argentine or Uruguayan referees at a similar level to John fucking Lacey.

Refereeing appointments are the last bastion of blazerdom. The "right sorts" get promoted no matter their competency. Lacey getting games is a total joke, Anus Gardener is a joke official. Matthew Carley running the line is a joke. These guys are just not good referees, I hate getting Lacey and Carley. If we're going to have total twats guessing and ruining games we might as well spread it out a little bit and have tossers from different nations fucking things up instead.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby 4N » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 20:38

Quality rant. :lol:

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 22:46

Brazilian referees are not professionals but they receive reasonable money in club matches.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 23:01

sk 88 wrote:Think it says more about World Rugby to be honest.

World Rugby pays the salary of quite a few Tier 2 referees, but either because of skepticism by Tier 1 countries or even referees holding themselves back, they are limited to Tier 2 clashes or Sevens World Series.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 15 Jul 2018, 00:42

Federico Anselmi, Damian Schneider and Pablo De Luca are the 3 Argentine referees usually in the ARC. Joaquin Montes, from Uruguay, is the non-Argentina usually with more nominations. I believe all of them receive money only from matches, which means I guess none of them are full time refs... maybe Anselmi only because he is in Super Rugby panel. So before reaching SANZAR panel I believe it is not possible to be a full time ref in South America....
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Re: South American rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 15 Jul 2018, 09:41

Armchair Fan wrote:
sk 88 wrote:Think it says more about World Rugby to be honest.

World Rugby pays the salary of quite a few Tier 2 referees, but either because of skepticism by Tier 1 countries or even referees holding themselves back, they are limited to Tier 2 clashes or Sevens World Series.


Taizo Hirabayashi was a young up and coming Japanese ref in the mid 2000s and got selected as an AR in the controversial 2007 ITA v WAL in Rome when ITA beat WAL for the first and so far only time in the 6N (and also first and only time in 6N there's been a Japanese official), and the Welsh team were very angry with one of his calls as I remember. The WRU laid a complaint and that basically stuffed Taizo's career. He never got another high level international game again. What I was so sad about is that the JRFU seemed to take the complaint to heart instead of sticking with him, and he got cut from not only their international panel when he was definitely one of the top couple of refs in Japan, but he also seemed to suffer for even getting Top League games after that too. A very sad end to a promising career.

I'm also appalled with the ref selections for the RC even if not a great fan of Anselmi (I know he's raised the ire of US fans in a couple of games he's reffed them > I distinctly remember a controversial one v ITA). The ref development area seems the least developed when it comes to T2 rugby refs getting opportunities to ref in bigger games/T1 pro leagues, even more than for T2 national teams and players.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Blurandski » Sun, 15 Jul 2018, 10:16

The main issue is that leagues only select referees from their country, hence refs from nations outside T1s really struggle to get top domestic experience, and then can’t get top international experience. The really simple solution seems to be for WR to fund a few refs in those comps, but for whatever reason it isn’t happening.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 15 Jul 2018, 12:07

I’m hoping there will be some T2 refs doing line duty at least at the World Cup next year.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 15 Jul 2018, 14:18

Blurandski wrote:The main issue is that leagues only select referees from their country, hence refs from nations outside T1s really struggle to get top domestic experience, and then can’t get top international experience. The really simple solution seems to be for WR to find a few refs in those comps, but for whatever reason it isn’t happening.

Exactly! Let's see if the South American League will help...
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