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South American rugby

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 14 Jan 2018, 22:02

Unfortunately there are no talks about it. Brazil is talking about a local professional league, but nothing about a regional league or South Ameircan Cup for clubs.

However, Uruguayan clubs are playing Argentina's Nacional de Clubes.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Mon, 15 Jan 2018, 16:31

Last year I would have predicted that Chile XV and Brazil XV would join Uruguay XV to play the Argentine Championship.

But the UAR cancelled the tournament. They are totally focused on clubs.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 00:13

How viable would a South American professional league be anyway?

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 01:15

thatrugbyguy wrote:How viable would a South American professional league be anyway?


Depends on what kind of league. I’m American so definitely not as informed as many others but if they try to do something like MLR year one then probably not viable. Instead, if they have a semi-pro league sponsored by Gilbert or some other brand then I can at least see it breaking even. SA doesn’t seem ready for a fully professional and profitable league but it does need better opportunities for top competition. Maybe something like Fédérale 1 where the players only receive a couple hundred dollars US per month. It would still give them the opportunity to work during the week but they would have to treat it more seriously than local club play.

In terms of talent, I’m sure Argentina’s team/teams will dominate as it would consist of Argentina XV players but I’m sure Uruguay could pull out some surprises. If scheduling allows then maybe they can plan this out so it’s only 3-4 months long and the players can return to their home clubs.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 01:49

Argentina never wanted a pro league because they have a deeply rooted amateurism ideology and they don't have enough money for that. They prefer (and I agree with them) their amateur club rugby that looks like professional, but it is not. The best thing would be an amateur/semi-pro league, with a professional approach, but without full-time players. However, Argentina's calendar gives no space for another competition... maybe the first step is to have Brazilian, Chilean and Paraguayan clubs playing Argentina's Nacional de Clubes (with costs payed by the Unions).
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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 02:48

I know it's logical to have Argentina involved with any professional league in South America, but is it possible one could work without them?

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 05:14

victorsra wrote:Argentina never wanted a pro league because they have a deeply rooted amateurism ideology and they don't have enough money for that. They prefer (and I agree with them) their amateur club rugby that looks like professional, but it is not. The best thing would be an amateur/semi-pro league, with a professional approach, but without full-time players. However, Argentina's calendar gives no space for another competition... maybe the first step is to have Brazilian, Chilean and Paraguayan clubs playing Argentina's Nacional de Clubes (with costs payed by the Unions).


Why do you prefer they keep their focus on amateur rather than creating a professional setup? hasn't this been one of the main reasons that Argentina has not been able to improve their talent pipeline, outside of having essentially their entire national team play for the Jaguares? I'm sure if they also join a professional setup that this would only help their amateur clubs.

I know it's logical to have Argentina involved with any professional league in South America, but is it possible one could work without them?


I think it's possible in the short term if you're just looking to have a semi-pro league like the one I described though having Argentina involved would surely help. If you want something like MLR then I would expect the need for Argentina because of the lack of talent.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 08:48

Watch Argentina's top club rugby. You will understand why they are happy with that.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 14:10

I’m sure they’re terrific but there’s still a huge gap between the pros and the club players, no? The creation of a pro competition doesn’t eliminate the amateur clubs.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 14:17

Argentine clubs emjoy their current status, and are unconcerned about anything else.
Not the Pumas, Jaguares, provincial teams or sevens.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 19:32

NaBUru38 wrote:Argentine clubs emjoy their current status, and are unconcerned about anything else.
Not the Pumas, Jaguares, provincial teams or sevens.


Definitely not suggesting the clubs take the lead on this as they’re very content where they are, as they should be. Top notch club rugby is a real treat to watch. I’m advocating for the Union to takeover and create/join some sort of semi-pro league for the Pumas or whatever developmental side. Joining the Currie Cup is a great first start but you might as well join a local competition with that team to keep costs down and keep the players close to home. Or do both. I understand too that the clubs would be concerned about losing their players but in the long run, professional rugby would help the amateur clubs tremendously.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 22:55

MLR hasn't kicked off but, sincerely, MLR possible level now won't be better (or better enough to value the costs) than Argentina's top club rugby. If they had the money to create a new second-tier professional level to feed the Jaguars it would need to be Currie Cup-level.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 16:26

victorsra wrote:MLR hasn't kicked off but, sincerely, MLR possible level now won't be better (or better enough to value the costs) than Argentina's top club rugby. If they had the money to create a new second-tier professional level to feed the Jaguars it would need to be Currie Cup-level.


Fair point, I would imagine the other countries in SA would benefit much more from a semi-pro regional setup for the time being. Since rugby is still really unknown in the continent, maybe doing a setup similar to the Pacific Rugby Premiership in the US would be best. Basically an elite club rugby competition that is sponsored by Samurai. It isn't looking to make money but rather its goal is to create better playing opportunities for the clubs. I would imagine that it would take quite some time to truly develop a fully professional league in SA, after which Argentina can decide if they want to join. Ultimately it would be beneficial for Argentina if a league like this succeeds even if they aren't involved.

I will say that the number one priority is youth rugby. It seems like there has been a great amount of work done in this area over the years and I would hope that continues. This is truly the best way to build a rugby culture in a country. Get them in young and have them play it for life. Worst case scenario you get people familiar with the sport and can actually say they've heard of it before.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 18:14

I will say that the number one priority is youth rugby.


Yes. Uruguay knows this. Brazil doesn't.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 20:04

victorsra wrote:
I will say that the number one priority is youth rugby.


Yes. Uruguay knows this. Brazil doesn't.


Do you help out with youth rugby at all? I've complained about USA Rugby not doing enough but then realized I wasn't doing anything about it either, planning on finally helping out a youth club in the area this spring.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 22:57

By looking at Argentina's top rugby and that's it's run well, does that mean they have game film online and they distribute it throughout the league? And then raw film is on youtube for all to see? Do they film and study training sessions? Do they have professional coaches and med-staff at every game? Are they selling 2,000 tickets per match (some clubs in Germany do apparently, which is wild to me)

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Re: South American rugby

Postby ianrenton » Thu, 18 Jan 2018, 23:48

Tobar wrote:
victorsra wrote:
I will say that the number one priority is youth rugby.


Yes. Uruguay knows this. Brazil doesn't.


Do you help out with youth rugby at all? I've complained about USA Rugby not doing enough but then realized I wasn't doing anything about it either, planning on finally helping out a youth club in the area this spring.


Nice. We all should put our money where our mouth is )

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 19 Jan 2018, 01:29

Me? Yes. I help an organization that develops Tag Rugby in São Paulo's schools with their communications and marketing, I talk to educators all the time. I also founded Brazil's major rugby news website and we have a weekly podcast. This week we interviewed the Development director of the Brazilian Rugby Union - great guy and great talk. This is a long debate here and not an empty complain.

Youth Rugby is really hard to develop, specially when your clubs don't proper facilities. This is a long term investment that few in T3 countries can do. If you want to know, Colombia is a very positive case.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Fri, 19 Jan 2018, 03:22

victorsra wrote:Me? Yes. I help an organization that develops Tag Rugby in São Paulo's schools with their communications and marketing, I talk to educators all the time. I also founded Brazil's major rugby news website and we have a weekly podcast. This week we interviewed the Development director of the Brazilian Rugby Union - great guy and great talk. This is a long debate here and not an empty complain.

Youth Rugby is really hard to develop, specially when your clubs don't proper facilities. This is a long term investment that few in T3 countries can do. If you want to know, Colombia is a very positive case.


That's very good to know. I know they went from 50 in the 90s to about 17,000 now so I'm sure there are a lot of younguns playing. Comms/Marketing is arguably the most important aspect that youth clubs needs. Without it, you just get a dad and 6 kids showing up, if they even know when the practice is because the last Facebook post was in 2015. If you can really get the message out there and attract people to the game then you can help it build up.

I wish I could understand Portuguese. My girlfriend does and I have some Brazilian friends but I'm having enough difficulty with Spanish. I've been to your site before but I have to do the Google translate every time so it loses some of the meaning. Websites and blogs that actually look well done (and yours is one of them) are needed for countries without rugby media. Just gave you a follow on Twitter as well.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Fri, 19 Jan 2018, 06:27

@TheStroBro I think victor was talking solely about level of play but I’ll try to answer some of these questions.

TheStroBro wrote:does that mean they have game film online and they distribute it throughout the league? And then raw film is on youtube for all to see?

It depends. ESPN has the rights of the national club competition and Buenos Aires local rugby. They generally take care of the top clubs in those events.

Some regional tournaments like Litoral hire companies to film their matches, distribute them within the clubs and create highlight packages for the media. Other modest clubs film the matches by themselves and exchange them with opposing coaches like in HS football.

Raw film is not available in youtube. Maybe some loose match here and there.

TheStroBro wrote:Do they film and study training sessions?

Just the elite clubs. That software is expensive.

TheStroBro wrote:Do they have professional coaches and med-staff at every game?

Most clubs pay for fitness trainers and medical staff. Not so much for head coaches. Generally, that role is taken by ex-players. Although, the pay isn’t everything. There are amateur coaches that have World Rugby Level 3 qualifications.

TheStroBro wrote:Are they selling 2,000 tickets per match?

Big clubs can get near the 1.000 spectator mark. Playoffs get within the 5.000-10.000 range. The thing is that they don't sell tickets. Maybe they charge parking to the people who follow the opposing team.

Argentine clubs don’t have fans. They have associates. A monthly fee is paid not only to participate in federated sports (rugby or field hockey), but also to use the facilities of the club which can include swimming pools, tennis courts, soccer pitches, club house, grills, etc. Watching the first team is part of the package, although some clubs don't even have bleachers. The associates just stand beside the field.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 19 Jan 2018, 09:03

Argentina's club rugby has an awesome culture.

Tobar, thank you. It is hard to keep it. There are many things people can do for rugby. I wasn't a good player and after an injury I decided that I could help rugby with something nobody was doing properly. It's been 10 years now.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Fri, 19 Jan 2018, 14:44

victorsra wrote:Argentina's club rugby has an awesome culture.

Tobar, thank you. It is hard to keep it. There are many things people can do for rugby. I wasn't a good player and after an injury I decided that I could help rugby with something nobody was doing properly. It's been 10 years now.


Good stuff man. I've been saying for years that I need to help out but I need to really get off my ass. Should actually happen this spring since I can't play for a bit. I'm in NYC so the youth clubs are part of Play Rugby so we can get a bit more infrastructure helping us behind the scenes. I don't think it's much but it's something.

I have an Argentinian friend who played field hockey and they used to always hang out with the rugby players. From what she tells me, the day would start around 9 and end around 9 the next day. Nothing better than a proper drink up.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 24 Jan 2018, 23:37

Found some articles on Colombian Rugby and their Get Into Rugby program. They seem to be doing a heck of a job with their youth initiatives which are pretty important for a country that's never heard of the sport.

This one's about Jorge Acevedo, the national coordinator of Get Into Rugby Colombia and only 29 years old. Great story with him.
http://semillerosdeportivos.com/jorge-a ... -al-rugby/

Some info on Get Into Rugby in Colombia (no idea how old it is). It has a couple of milestones in there too.
http://getintorugby.worldrugby.org/index.php?id=299766

And lastly, I found this article about Pakistani rugby. It has an interesting quote about their Get Into Rugby participation numbers. I question the numbers but am happy with them if they are true:
It is worth mentioning here that Pakistan rugby has improved its participation in 2017 which was 70,366 in which 37,578 were boys and 32788 girls, who learnt rugby basic programme ‘Get into Rugby’. Colombia was on top in the world with 216,341 numbers

https://nation.com.pk/20-Jan-2018/pru-e ... root-level

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 16:58

http://www.sudamericarugby.org/2018/01/ ... val-clave/

Bolivian Rugby Union finaly recognized by the Bolivian Olympic Comitee! Soon it will be a Sudamerica Rugby associate member.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby argie » Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 19:42

Good for the Bolivians. Hopefully they can put together a XV's national team soon.

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