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South American rugby

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 05 Mar 2018, 17:11

The problem with a 6-team tournament is that a double round robin would be just 10 matches (plus playoffs). This tournament needs more matches.

Nop. NZ's ITM Cup have exactly 10 rounds + SF + F, from August to October. The Currie Cup Premier Division had 8 in 2016 and 12 in 2017. The NRC is even smaller: 8 rounds + SF + F.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 05 Mar 2018, 19:00

NaBUru38 wrote:
Tobar wrote:Taking it to the next level means professional. You can't legitimately develop the national team players if they are just amateur, otherwise you might as well build your domestic club program and not create an international club program. That's what I was referring to.


Well, I disagree. This league would be a major improvement for Uruguay, Chile and Brazil.
It would also help Argentina to bridge the gap between club rugby and the Jaguares.


I'm confused, are you advocating for an amateur competition between these countries or a professional competition? This proposed competition is professional.

In my earlier comment about taking it to the next level, I was just referring to another possible option for a South American league. This one would be amateur and would eventually become professional (taking it to the next level).

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 05 Mar 2018, 19:04

NaBUru38 wrote:
victorsra wrote:
“A professional league will kill our clubs. The most important thing we have”. Maybe the Pumas bad results have softened his stance but that would be a dramatic change of tune.


Yes, it can't. That's why it must be (and can only be) small. Jaguares need a professional structure below them, but the clubs don't want to be harmed. If it is supposed to happen, I only see something about 6 teams, with 2 Argentines (the minimum need to feed the Jaguares properly) + 1 Chilean, 1 Uruguayan-only, 1 Brazilian-only and 1 Southern Brazil-based Brazilian-Uruguayan-Paraguayan-Argentine joint venture. 10 rounds + SF + Final


The problem with a 6-team tournament is that a double round robin would be just 10 matches (plus playoffs). This tournament needs more matches.


MLR is the same thing - 10 weeks, 2 semis and the final. When you're making a brand new league in a non-rugby market you have to start smaller to go through the proof of concept otherwise you'll burn through tons of money in the first year alone. Keep it simple and expand in year 2 if it's a success.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Osmanperalta » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 02:29

He is a legend but i think he is very wrong and think thats the opinion of many people about professionalism in rugby
https://www.elpatagonico.com/hugo-porta-jaguares-y-los-pumas-no-tienen-alma-n3064191

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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 03:08

Working Class Rugger wrote:
At least initially that should be it's goal. At least from a Uruguayan, Chilean and Brazilian perspective. From an Argentine perspective it should be a structure to underwrite the Jaguares. This is short term. The first 5 or so seasons. Mid to long term the goal should be toward creating a viable professional structure (years 5-10).

I actually disagree with thew viability questions. Mainly because we have a similar set up here in Australia. Yes, we are a T1 Union but money is very tight in an extremely expensive market to operate. We run our NRC structure involving 8 teams, having to travel across vast distances for a tidy $1.2m a season. So it could definitely be done. Especially if the Unions can get WR on board and potential ponying up some funding to assist in the costs. That's year 1-5.

Years 5 and beyond will be heavily reliant on how the Unions approach the competition from day one. Treat it as elite. Push it's profile and work hard on building it's presence. It's never going to be Soccer in the Americas but I believe (albeit from an outsiders perspective) there is opportunity for the game on the continent.


One thing to note about the NRC that the South Americans should take away from is what the inclusion of the Fijian Drua team has exposed their domestic players to a higher level of competition. There is also the distances that aren't as vast in South America. A flight from Sydney to Perth is minimum 5 hours. You can go from Montevideo to Santiago in half the time.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 12:53

http://www.portaldorugby.com.br/noticia ... anejamento

I called the Brazilian Rugby Union CEO to have more info about the South American League.

So, it is real, it will kickoff either in 2019 or 2020 (the RWC will be an issue to launch it next year). They don't know the format or the months of the tournament, but this will be confirmed and released soon. Same thing about the final number of teams each country will have, but probably Brazil will have 2 (Argentina at least 2, Uruguay wants 2, Chile probably just 1).

The concept behind is to give South America (Jaguares) "its own Currie Cup-like competition". And this replaces the project of having South American teams in the Currie Cup.

The league will be financed by the Unions, World Rugby and "private sponsors". So, more news soon.

One thing to note about the NRC that the South Americans should take away from is what the inclusion of the Fijian Drua team has exposed their domestic players to a higher level of competition. There is also the distances that aren't as vast in South America. A flight from Sydney to Perth is minimum 5 hours. You can go from Montevideo to Santiago in half the time.


Southern Cone, you mean. São Paulo-Santiago is 4h the flight.

And São Paulo-Medellín (Colombia) is 8h the flight
Last edited by victorsra on Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 13:20, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 13:03

Which is still shorter than the longest league trip from Fiji to Perth by many hours. But this is good news. Interesting Chile might only get one. A chance for another nation to fill the 8th place?

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 13:18

I heard Colombia from another person. But I think it is unlikely.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 13:21

So, potentially a 12 week regular season plus 2 weeks for finals.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 13:37

Yes, but I woudn't be surprised with 6 teams 10-week regular season.

And I bet it in August-October.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby 4N » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 13:53

victorsra wrote:I heard Colombia from another person. But I think it is unlikely.


Would be awesome if that did happen!

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 14:01

victorsra wrote:http://www.portaldorugby.com.br/noticias/internacional/confirmado-liga-sul-americana-esta-em-planejamento

I called the Brazilian Rugby Union CEO to have more info about the South American League.

So, it is real, it will kickoff either in 2019 or 2020 (the RWC will be an issue to launch it next year). They don't know the format or the months of the tournament, but this will be confirmed and released soon. Same thing about the final number of teams each country will have, but probably Brazil will have 2 (Argentina at least 2, Uruguay wants 2, Chile probably just 1).

The concept behind is to give South America (Jaguares) "its own Currie Cup-like competition". And this replaces the project of having South American teams in the Currie Cup.

The league will be financed by the Unions, World Rugby and "private sponsors". So, more news soon.

One thing to note about the NRC that the South Americans should take away from is what the inclusion of the Fijian Drua team has exposed their domestic players to a higher level of competition. There is also the distances that aren't as vast in South America. A flight from Sydney to Perth is minimum 5 hours. You can go from Montevideo to Santiago in half the time.


Southern Cone, you mean. São Paulo-Santiago is 4h the flight.

And São Paulo-Medellín (Colombia) is 8h the flight


victorsra wrote:http://www.portaldorugby.com.br/noticias/internacional/confirmado-liga-sul-americana-esta-em-planejamento

I called the Brazilian Rugby Union CEO to have more info about the South American League.

So, it is real, it will kickoff either in 2019 or 2020 (the RWC will be an issue to launch it next year). They don't know the format or the months of the tournament, but this will be confirmed and released soon. Same thing about the final number of teams each country will have, but probably Brazil will have 2 (Argentina at least 2, Uruguay wants 2, Chile probably just 1).

The concept behind is to give South America (Jaguares) "its own Currie Cup-like competition". And this replaces the project of having South American teams in the Currie Cup.

The league will be financed by the Unions, World Rugby and "private sponsors". So, more news soon.

One thing to note about the NRC that the South Americans should take away from is what the inclusion of the Fijian Drua team has exposed their domestic players to a higher level of competition. There is also the distances that aren't as vast in South America. A flight from Sydney to Perth is minimum 5 hours. You can go from Montevideo to Santiago in half the time.


Southern Cone, you mean. São Paulo-Santiago is 4h the flight.

And São Paulo-Medellín (Colombia) is 8h the flight


Very nice, I tried reading your article but Portuguese falls completely flat on me. Since I can at least understand Spanish articles I always assume I can understand Portuguese...I assume wrong. I always tell my friends that Portuguese sounds like a Russian guy trying to speak Spanish, ha.

Anyway, this is some good stuff. Currie Cup would’ve been nice as the competition would be higher from the start but building up the region has far great benefits. Even if their main side is leaps and bounds ahead of the other South American countries, Argentina will still benefit by having a pathway for its players that is much easier to access than South Africa.

I heard Colombia from another person. But I think it is unlikely.


God I would love this but agree that it’s unlikely, given both the level of talent and distance to other countries. As you pointed out, it takes 8 hours to get to SP (that’s longer than it takes me to get to Colombia from New York). I wouldn’t be surprised to see Colombia make a big jump in the rankings given their extra test matches against higher ranked countries. It would be wiser to keep the competition smaller and more manageable and then add other countries later. Plus, that gives me some extra time to make some money to buy into it, hah.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 14:41

I always assume I can understand Portuguese...I assume wrong. I always tell my friends that Portuguese sounds like a Russian guy trying to speak Spanish, ha.

Hahahahaha interesting
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 17:10

I have a couple of Brazilian friends because I used to work for a company that was built around hosting Brazilian Private Equity investor events, eventually adding a lot in South America before dropping them all and focusing just on the US.....oh well, but met lots of South Americans and got to enjoy lots of office caipirinhas. Met my girlfriend here and she's Colombian but loves to listen to sofrencia, much to my chagrin.

Anyway, was just on Facebook and saw World Rugby posted this video about Brazilian rugby and SPAC, the oldest club. The player being interviewed says that the clubs went from about 15-20 in 2000 to about 350-400 now. Incredible jump, there's a reason why people keep talking about Brazil.

https://www.facebook.com/worldrugby/vid ... 247818123/

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 17:56

Yep. Last year we had about 100 fielding 15-a-side teams. But I think in 2018 we'll have a little bit less
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 18:22

victorsra wrote:Yep. Last year we had about 100 fielding 15-a-side teams. But I think in 2018 we'll have a little bit less


Do you have divisions or tiers in Brazil? In the US we have Division 1, 2 and 3. Most teams that have an A side are really Division 2 and the A side is Division 3. They're usually just the guys who aren't good enough for D2 so there's a big gap in play.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 22:30

victorsra wrote:Yes, but I woudn't be surprised with 6 teams 10-week regular season.

And I bet it in August-October.


Even if it's only 10 weeks it's still a good start.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 22:38

Do you have divisions or tiers in Brazil? In the US we have Division 1, 2 and 3. Most teams that have an A side are really Division 2 and the A side is Division 3. They're usually just the guys who aren't good enough for D2 so there's a big gap in play.


Yes.

March to June our clubs play the regional competitions. All Brazilian sports have the tradition of state championships (I have posted about them in the "Rugby in Brazil" thread). Two states (São Paulo and Rio Grande do Sul) have more than 1 division (5 divisions in São Paulo, 2 in Rio Grande do Sul), with promotion-relegation system.

Other 5 states (Minas Gerais, Rio de Janeiro, Paraná, Santa Catarina and Bahia) have less clubs and only 1 division each. The other states don't have their own competitions and join others to form regional tournaments, like Northern League, Cerrado Trophy, Pantanal Trophy and Northeast League (that will end and be split in two, TBA).

Very few clubs have more than one squad.... but São Paulo Championship has B squads in a "Development division" (the 5th division, where new clubs enter too) and Rio Grande do Sul has a B teams-only competition apart from the other 2 divisions.

July to October we play the national championship. 2 divisions, with promotion-relegation system too. Clubs that coudn't qualify for the national championship play sometime regional cups in that period.

In 2018 the top national division was expanded from Super 8 to Super 16, with 16 clubs split in 4 groups. The 2nd division, Taça Tupi (Tupi Trophy), will have the same format. Clubs qualify to Taça Tupi from their regional competitions.

November-December is the sevens season.

There is also varsity rugby. São Paulo has two 15-a-side competitions and a couple of sevens competitions, while Rio de Janeiro has one varsity sevens competitions. Varsity teams from other states play against clubs... and there is a varsity sevens nacional cup.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 15:41

victorsra wrote:http://www.portaldorugby.com.br/noticias/internacional/confirmado-liga-sul-americana-esta-em-planejamento

I called the Brazilian Rugby Union CEO to have more info about the South American League.

Thanks, Victor!

victorsra wrote: They don't know the final number of teams each country will have, but probably Brazil will have 2 (Argentina at least 2, Uruguay wants 2, Chile probably just 1).

Brazil having two teams makes completely sense. it's a huge country, with thousands of players and potential customers.

In addition to Sao Paulo state, where do you think the second team will play? Florianópolis, Porto Alegre, Bento Gonçalves, Curitiba?

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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 15:44

victorsra wrote:
I always assume I can understand Portuguese...I assume wrong. I always tell my friends that Portuguese sounds like a Russian guy trying to speak Spanish, ha.

Hahahahaha interesting

I would have never compared Brazilians to Russians, haha!

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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 15:50

Tobar wrote: I'm confused, are you advocating for an amateur competition between these countries or a professional competition? This proposed competition is professional.

On the contrary, I think that this South American semi-professional tournament is a great step forward.

Tobar wrote: In my earlier comment about taking it to the next level, I was just referring to another possible option for a South American league. This one would be amateur and would eventually become professional (taking it to the next level).

Tobar wrote: If any league was to exist it would likely have to be a semi-pro kind of arrangement with a title sponsor and such. I'm really not sure this is the best way though because those leagues tend to sit in semi-pro hell for years - too expensive to be able to really invest in the league and take it to the next level.

The only way I would see that work is if this semi-pro league converts into a fully professional one when the time comes. Even still with my limited knowledge of South American rugby, I don't see this happening.

Today, South American rugby doesn't need to be "taken to the next level". Starting a semi-professional tournament is the correct decision.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 17:45

In addition to Sao Paulo state, where do you think the second team will play? Florianópolis, Porto Alegre, Bento Gonçalves, Curitiba?

I heard Curitiba.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 18:23

NaBUru38 wrote:
Tobar wrote: I'm confused, are you advocating for an amateur competition between these countries or a professional competition? This proposed competition is professional.

On the contrary, I think that this South American semi-professional tournament is a great step forward.

Tobar wrote: In my earlier comment about taking it to the next level, I was just referring to another possible option for a South American league. This one would be amateur and would eventually become professional (taking it to the next level).

Tobar wrote: If any league was to exist it would likely have to be a semi-pro kind of arrangement with a title sponsor and such. I'm really not sure this is the best way though because those leagues tend to sit in semi-pro hell for years - too expensive to be able to really invest in the league and take it to the next level.

The only way I would see that work is if this semi-pro league converts into a fully professional one when the time comes. Even still with my limited knowledge of South American rugby, I don't see this happening.

Today, South American rugby doesn't need to be "taken to the next level". Starting a semi-professional tournament is the correct decision.


There tends to be a lot of confusion when people throw down the term "semi-pro" and I mistakenly used two different meanings here. Some people don't like to use it because it makes the competition look amateur. Semi-pro, in my opinion, really just means that not everyone is a full time, fully professional player. MLR is currently semi-pro - there are about 10 full time guys making 10k-30k salaries and then there are part time players who likely hope to make more money in the future. This South American league will definitely have to be semi-pro when it starts but the plan is to become more professional at some point in the future - and I agree that this is a terrific step in the right direction for South American rugby for many different reasons. I am thoroughly excited for this.

But in the second part you quoted, I was referring to a league that strictly pays match day fees to its players (which by definition is still semi-pro). This would be closer in comparison to the Pacific Rugby Premiership in the US - 6 D1 clubs who come together and play against each other, have sponsors and decent marketing and pays its players match day fees but does not have plans to "take it to the next level" with plans to become fully professional, just like MLR.

I just think there's confusion because I'm not disagreeing with you at all but it sounds like we're talking about different things. You're also really getting hung up on the phrase "take it to the next level" for some reason, maybe thinking that I want a league to be as professional as Super Rugby from the get go which is not the case.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 18:30

Victor, since you are more tuned into this stuff (whereas someone like myself has to rely on articles from places like Americas Rugby News) does there seem to already be some backing from this outside of Sudamerica/World Rugby? I know the plans are to have outside investors but I'm wondering if they have already secured them or if the plans are to find investors/owners later. I guess I'm wondering how far along they are in planning this league - is this just the result from one or two meetings with top rugby execs or have there been length discussions about strategy for the league?

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Re: South American rugby

Postby qwerty » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 18:43

Personally, I am skeptical that 2 teams would work in Brazil. This is an extremely new concept, and rugby is mostly concentrated in Sao Paulo (5 out of 8 top teams are from there). I think they should start off with just one team, just like Chile and Uruguay.

If things work out maybe they could add an expansion team in Curitiba, maybe Porto Alegre or Bento Goncalves. That's the other problem, there is not other big "hotspot" of rugby in the country, but several smaller ones.

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